Why register? ...To Enhance Your Experience
+ Reply to Thread
Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 21 to 38 of 38

Thread: Fire-based EMS?

  1. #21
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Posts
    20

    Default

    Im the same as hwoods..... PG station 34 here.. we run or ambo out of the firehouse... damn that thing lol


  2. #22
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Central Florida
    Posts
    6

    Default

    I have been invloved in Fire based EMS all of my professional career. The first was what we call a 2 tier system. It had medics on our Rescues who could provide ALS until the transport arrived. The pro's were that the FD units were out of service for shorter periods of time. The con's were that critical patients would be dependent on the private companies response, and the private company billed the patient. The system I am working with now is a transport based system. The advantages are that medics are able to provide care and then transport the patient. Our collection rate is about 60%. This generates a significant amount of revenue for the system itself. It is not enough to fund it completely but it is enough to utilize those funds not needed in EMS to the Fire needs. We have 6 rescues county wide now and are adding 2 more rescues and 2 more engines this fiscal year. Another plus is that we all work and train together which means a lot fewer problems on scene. All systems have their good points and bad. The best system is the one that benefits our customers (taxpayers) the most.

  3. #23
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    Western NC
    Posts
    156

    Default

    I stand corrected on the ALS transport thing, in NC you must ahve an ALS UNIT in place to begin treatment, so a ALS fire truck would qualify.

    Duffman, I have no doubt you are a better medic now than you were before, we all get better with experience, but the question is are you a better medic now than you would have been had you been able to focus only on medical training and continuing ed, instead of fire and medical?

    Can you honestly say you are a better medic than you would be with more training? What if all the opertunity for training for both jobs was available for one job?

    That was my whole question about the system.

  4. #24
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2000
    Location
    Puget Sound
    Posts
    130

    Default

    Originally posted by DaSharkie
    FDNY, St. Louis, Seattle, San Fran, DC, they all have tremendous problems with morale and EMS - which actually makes money for the city and department, gets very little money for equipment, training, and the like.
    With all due respect, when it comes to Seattle, I don't think you know what you're talking about. I live in King County, and I've never heard of morale problems when it comes to EMS. Particularly considering that it can easily be argued it's the best EMS system in the world, as evidenced by the recent USA Today series. I think all the firefighters in the EMS system here know exactly what they're getting into when they join the fire service, as most departments require applicants to have an EMT cert BEFORE they apply.

    In the city of Seattle, there has never been a third service EMS system. Firefighters have always been medical providers, so you don't have the problems of integrating third service EMS providers into a fire department the way you do now in other places, which in my opinion causes most of the problems taking place with fire departments and EMS. I have no idea what is going on in the other departments you mention, but in Seattle/King County, I really don't think morale problems exist due to EMS. And to me, that makes it a model for other departments to follow.

  5. #25
    Forum Member RescuHoppy7's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Owego,NY USA
    Posts
    362

    Default

    radioguy, I unfortunately have to 100% disagree with what you are saying, I'm a dual role FF/EMT and have never let either training or knowledge interfer with one another, When I have a nozzle and I'm in a burning structure my mind is 150% focused on my safety, my partner's safety and what we are doing. Same with EMS if I'm focusing my mind on my safety, my patient's care and safety,In our department it is an option as to what you want to do, there are those who are strictly fire and those who are strictly EMS but there are those who are FF/EMT's and we have never had a problem with it,It may be just how our area is our has just adjusted to it but for us Fire Based EMS works
    NYS FF1/AEMT-CC
    IAEP Local 152
    "You stopped being in charge when I showed up"

  6. #26
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Posts
    27

    Default

    We are in a position where our department provides ALS service but does not transport (when AMR gives us a BLS car the medic hitches a ride the gets picked up at the hosp.) This works out prety well because we make sure the private ambulance treats our citizens how they should. (FD is, by law, in charge until transfer is made)
    I.A.C.O.J.


    SOME ARE FIREMEN
    OTHERS ARE JUST ON
    THE FIRE DEPARTMENT

  7. #27
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    Western NC
    Posts
    156

    Default

    Alot of what you guys are saying makes sense, I don't doubt that it works well, just pointing out what I thought was a drawback. Like I said my exposure to such systems is somewhat limited.

    I still don't see how you can say you don't lack for training with such a system. You may be getting what you feel is enough, but are you getting as much as possible?


    Take a department with 50 FF/paramedics. The departmnet has a certain budget for training, and lets say it allows for 100 hours per employee per year. Each one will get 50 hours of medical and 50 hours of firefighting.

    Now if you seprate them and have 25 medics and 25 firefighters (or whatever split coems to mind), your firefighters can have 100 hours of firefighting training a year and your medics can have 100 hours of medical training a year.

    Now in what system are you better preparing them to do the job at hand? Even if your department budgets for unlimited training as much as the person wishes to take, you still have to split the time available in that persons schedule for such training.


    Not saying it is a bad way to do things, just that I cannot see how requiring someone to do two jobs instead of one can make them better prepared for either. It may make it easier on the leadership to have more people to fill either role, and be a little cheaper for the department, but is cheaper and easier better?

  8. #28
    Forum Member MIKEYLIKESIT's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Division 24
    Posts
    4,360

    Default hello its 2003

    I am a member of a department that has provided ALS service for THIRTY years now. Fire based EMS is hardly a new concept.

  9. #29
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    CITY OF MONESSEN FIRE DEPT. 81
    Posts
    18

    Default

    MIKEY, YOU ARE RIGHT. EMS IN FIRE IS NOT A NEW CONCEPT. BUT FOR A LOT OF FIRE DEPT.'S IT IS. AND I THINK THE DISCUSSION HERE IS NOT THAT IT IS SOMETHING NEW THAT IS EITHER LIKED OR DISLIKED, BUT WHAT PEOPLES OPINIONS ARE ABOUT THE SUBJECT, AND WHERE OTHER FIRE DEPT.'S STAND ON THE ISSUE IF EMS AND FIRE COINCIDE WITH EACH OTHER OR IF THEY ARE SEPERATED BY INTERNAL BELIEFS. BUT YOU ARE CORRECT, I DO AGREE.

  10. #30
    Forum Member RescuHoppy7's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Owego,NY USA
    Posts
    362

    Default

    RadioGuy,Again I agree with part of what you say but another area that comes into play is experience, now granted you could have a FF/Paramedic show up who has a 100 hours of training a year but has only been playing the game two years as compared to someone who has 50 hours of training a year but has 20 years experience under his belt, I'm still fairly new and have seen alot of things but truth be told I haven't seen everything, that's where my knowledge ends and others Experience takes over...Stay Safe!
    NYS FF1/AEMT-CC
    IAEP Local 152
    "You stopped being in charge when I showed up"

  11. #31
    Forum Member DaSharkie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2000
    Posts
    4,713

    Default

    OneL1L, I stand corrected, or sit as it may be, I was under the impression that there were some difficulties. THank you for the correction.

    As I have stated in numerous posts before, a blanket statement that it works everywhere is absurdity. There are different mentalities everywhere. I remember a few years ago in Boston damned near fisticuffs breaking out on calls becuase of the problems between BFD and BEMS. In Worcester, the EMS is provided by a hospital based-like system and the fire chief and union are trying to get the dept. an ambulance but many of, if not most, of the union membership want little to do with EMS. My interaction with WFD showed a large dislike for EMS. As with anything, you get exceptions and some good companies and, in my experience, many bad.

    Also a few years ago, WFD's union, refused to put a defibrillator on the engine companies because they were not paid a stipend for them. These are the same guys who they want to put in an ambulance? Are there great exmples of fire based EMS? Yes, but it does not work everywhere.

    Remembering that we are there to provide the best to our citizens, just because it saves money is not the right reason to do it. If the level of patient care is not outstanding, then you should not be doing it. It is not in the best interest of the patient or the citizens.
    "Too many people spend money they haven't earned, to buy things they don't want, to impress people they don't like." Will Rogers

    The borrower is slave to the lender. Proverbs 22:7 - Debt free since 10/5/2009.

    "No man's life, liberty, or property are safe while the legislature is in session." - New York Judge Gideon Tucker

    "As Americans we must always remember that we all have a common enemy, an enemy that is dangerous, powerful and relentless. I refer, of course, to the federal government." - Dave Barry

    www.daveramsey.com www.clarkhoward.com www.heritage.org

  12. #32
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Va
    Posts
    16

    Talking fire ems

    I thank God for the Fire departments that also have EMS, my mother is a copd pt. and lives on Mowbury Mnt. in Chattanooga and I thank God for the EMS,of the fire trcuk. If it had not been for them my nother would be dead today. They repsonded very quickly and took care of the crisis at needed. The fog on the mountain in the fall and winter time is very bad.
    Hey if anyone out there is from Soddy Daisey, I just want to say thank you. She has had to have you all more than once. Just wanted to let you know I apperciate your great response, and the job you do daily.
    Sharon

  13. #33
    MembersZone Subscriber Duffman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Chicago area
    Posts
    780

    Default

    radioguy, I respect your opinion, but I have to continue to disagree.

    I still don't see how you can say you don't lack for training with such a system. You may be getting what you feel is enough, but are you getting as much as possible?
    I don't lack for training. I get at least six hours of EMS training per month by way of formal drills. Add to that the smaller in house training, and the number of calls I run and I am sure it equals more than a great deal of the EMS only providers receive, especially private ambo companies. You see they are profit driven, and you don't make money by holding a training session.



    Take a department with 50 FF/paramedics. The departmnet has a certain budget for training, and lets say it allows for 100 hours per employee per year. Each one will get 50 hours of medical and 50 hours of firefighting.

    Around here, the EMS system provides training to its providers. All the departments have to do is provide a place to hold the drill. The system even provides the instructor more often than not. When they don't, a member of the department who has been authorized by the system does the teaching. It costs the department almost nothing to train us.

    I am held to a very high standard. We must test every six months to remain in good standing. Far more frequently than the law requires for recertification.

    If you extend your logic further, we should have trauma medics, cardiac medics, respiratory medics, etc.

    The key is to monitor and evaluate performance. If a person cannot perform to the standard of care required they should be sent packing.

    Around here fire based EMS is the standard. Ask somebody from AMR what happened when they tried to come to the Chicago area and "revolutionize" our way of delivering EMS. They didn't last long. Apparently it wasn't profitable. So you tell me, who is trying to provide pt. care on the cheap?
    "We shouldn't be opening firehouses in Baghdad and closing them in New York City."

    IACOJ

  14. #34
    Forum Member FHandz15's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    St. Louis County, MO
    Posts
    201

    Default

    Do any of you have Chiefs that are paramedics?

    In my dept., all 3 Fire Chiefs are paramedics, and have been for over 20 years. Needless to say, we just kicked out the private EMS provider and started our own transport EMS service this year.

    Is it better for the taxpayers, I think so.

    Has it destroyed morale in the FD, absolutely.

    Do we hire anyone that has a medic cert and their own car, yes.

    We haven't hired an EMT in 6 years, and the FF/EMT is being phased out slowly.

    The last FD I worked at had their own ambulance in 1929. It is very hard to find a BLS or non-EMS providing FD anymore. I suppose that's a good thing, if you are a medic.

    BTW...we do EMS training on the internet, and don't do any fire training anymore. We're too busy with inspections, hydrants, hose testing...etc. But hey, no one's been hurt yet, besides numerous back injuries from EMS calls.
    Last edited by FHandz15; 09-14-2003 at 07:55 AM.

  15. #35
    Forum Member kghemtp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    New Hampshire
    Posts
    726

    Default

    The town of Derry, where I did my paramedic ride time, has a batallion chief who began as a firefighter, got his paramedic, worked his way up the ladder, and with 26 years in the department, maintains his paramedic certification. THAT department is one that truly defines fire-based EMS, and there is no sacrifice of fire or EMS training for the other. Roughly half of their fulltime department (70 strong) are paramedics, and they are among the best out there. Every member is also a very strong firefighter.
    ~Kevin
    Firefighter/Paramedic
    --^v--^v--^v--^v--
    Of course, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong
    Dennis Miller

  16. #36
    Forum Member FireCapt1951retired's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2000
    Location
    Between here and there
    Posts
    790

    Default

    I still like the way my department has it set up. The EMS division is an entity all in and of itself, although it's still a division of the Fire Department. They have their own Officers and almost all the medics are EMT-A or Paramedics. They're damn good at what they do and they don't want to do firefighting.

    The Firefighting Division does everything else and we don't want to do medical. It works fine for us and there's no fighting between the Firefighting Division and the EMS Division as to whose job is what.

    The only real problem we ever ran into was who's in charge of the Firehouse and that problem was solved. The Senior Fire Officer is in charge of the quarters but not the EMT's themselves, they have their own officers for that.

    We both work together well at scenes when both are needed and thats what counts. Again, EMS does their job (all medical) and we do ours.

  17. #37
    55 Years & Still Rolling hwoods's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    Glenn Dale Md, Heart of the P.G. County Fire Belt....
    Posts
    10,739

    Smile Again, Good Points.......

    Couple of things I missed earlier. Kevin's example of a good operation, Derry NH, shows how things should be when everyone knows up front what life there will be like, WHEN THEY COME ON BOARD. Lt. details his view of his dept. and shows a strong system that works. One sticking point that I have seen over the years concerns station duties, as in :"I'm a medic and medics don't take out the trash". Clear direction from the top will put an end to these type problems. Stay Safe....
    Never use Force! Get a Bigger Hammer.
    In memory of
    Chief Earle W. Woods, 1912 - 1997
    Asst. Chief John R. Woods Sr. 1937 - 2006

    IACOJ Budget Analyst

    I Refuse to be a Spectator. If I come to the Game, I'm Playing.

    www.gdvfd18.com

  18. #38
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Posts
    1

    Angry

    i think that today EMS is just associated with the fire dept. neither one is better than the other one. its kind of like a brotherhood.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts