1. #1
    Forum Member
    DeputyChiefGonzo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2000
    Location
    Somewhere between genius and insanity!
    Posts
    13,586

    Default LDH question....

    We recently went to LDH supply lines on all of our engines. Our LDH is the 4" plastic/rubber coated type.

    We have been having a problem with the LDH "laying itself", ie., coming out of the bed. We had two minor and one major instances of this in the last week.

    We were told that it would be "slippery"... And I am looking for a solution to solve the "problem"...
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

  2. #2
    Forum Member
    FWDbuff's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Pee-Ayy!
    Posts
    7,428

    Default High velocity air is your enemy!

    Gonzo- I know of many departments that have had the same problems. Let me guess- When the engine company is traveling at high speeds (actually I guess normal speeds.....45mph???) the wind picks up the folds of hose at the front of the hosebed and "lays out the hose"?

    I know of several solutions.
    -Canvas hosebed covers
    -bungee cords stretched across the top of (at the front) of the
    hosebed
    -Velcro straps stretched across the top of (at the front) of the
    hosebed

    Placing a strap of somekind will prevent the hose from becoming airborn, yet will still allow it to lay out during the real thing.

    Also, how are you guys packing the hose? We have had LDH (5") for almost 14 years now- and the most successful method of packing it is the coupling-forward method...all of the couplings are dutched up front against the front of the hosebed. Other than that, you pack it in a standard flat lay.

    Good luck with your new venture! Having your own "portable water main" is priceless!

    FTM-PTB-EGH-RFB!

  3. #3
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Location
    New Jersey
    Posts
    887

    Default

    Gonzo, we went to 5" LDH a while ago and the 1st engine had that problem. I believe they sorta solved it by washing the entire length to remove the "preservative" coating.

    the other engines went to cloth covered LDH.

    hope this helps.


    Tanker
    I.A.C.O.J. Firefighter/EMT-B

    "I'm gonna drill a hole in your skull and pump out all the stupidity"
    Gunny Ermey


    "Never underestimate the Power of Stupid People in Large Groups"


    Humpty Dumpty was pushed

    Polishing the Chrome on all the IACOJ "apparati"

  4. #4
    55 Years & Still Rolling
    hwoods's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    Glenn Dale Md, Heart of the P.G. County Fire Belt....
    Posts
    10,740

    Cool Couple of Rolls of hose..........

    Small Rural VFD where I have some friends (Yes, I have friends) solved the "Automatic Layout" problem by placing a couple of rolled sections of 2.5 hose on top of the LDH load, near the front of the bed. Worked for them, no cost, no modification of anything. When you start to lay out the LDH it only takes a few seconds to grab the rolls and lay them on the tailboard. Stay Safe....
    Never use Force! Get a Bigger Hammer.
    In memory of
    Chief Earle W. Woods, 1912 - 1997
    Asst. Chief John R. Woods Sr. 1937 - 2006

    IACOJ Budget Analyst

    I Refuse to be a Spectator. If I come to the Game, I'm Playing.

    www.gdvfd18.com

  5. #5
    MembersZone Subscriber
    ullrichk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Deleted by the forum gremlins
    Posts
    1,663

    Default

    We had problems with LDH "catching air" too. Couplings forward and "getting the new off" helped.

    If the hose is sliding off the rear and not just blowing out at speed, stack the folds at the tailboard end instead of alternating in and out. This probably isn't too good for the hose in the long term, but until it gets scuffed up some, the "ramp" created by the stacked folds will tend to counteract the tendency to slide out.
    ullrichk
    a.k.a.
    perfesser

    a ship in a harbor is safe. . . but that's not what ships are for

  6. #6
    Forum Member
    explr985's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    the other end of all that LDH...........
    Posts
    791

    Default

    I have seen places that have the couplings on the folds at the front of the bed to keep them from doing that. To get the coupling off when you need it, just take some webbing and tie it just behind the coupling and losly wrap around the grab handle on the tailboard.
    No longer an explorer, but I didn't wanna lose my posts.

    IACOJ 2003

  7. #7
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Location
    Pa
    Posts
    181

    Default

    Ive seen a piece of diamond plate, hinged at the front of the hose bed. Only about 3-4' long, and the width of the bed. Seemed to work for them.

  8. #8
    Forum Member
    Fire304's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    At the Helm
    Posts
    1,174

    Default

    We actually have a problem getting our hose to come out somedays. If the hose gets wet (rain or packed wet) or if the foam tank overflows into the bed a little the whole stack gets stuck together and is really tough to get out by hand (pull at an angle to start the 1st section if this happens to you). We just do a normal flat lay, couplings where they fall, all folds on the edge of the hose bed (none overhanging, if we stagger, we stagger inboard).
    ________________________________________________
    If you are new to posting please CLICK HERE for an essential lesson
    ________________________________________________
    A bad day in the boat is better than a good day in the office. And in my case the office is a boat!

    IACOJ Fire Boat 1

  9. #9
    Forum Member
    Weruj1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 1999
    Location
    NW Ohio
    Posts
    7,857

    Default

    I have heard that once the "new" is worn off you should be ok. All of our rigs have canvas covers to keep weather and UV light off and havent had a problem in a very very long time. And how much are you carying Capt ? 500 feet ? 1000 ? thanks
    IACOJ both divisions and PROUD OF IT !
    Pardon me sir.. .....but I believe we are all over here !
    ATTENTION ALL SHOPPERS: Will the dead horse please report to the forums.(thanks Motown)
    RAY WAS HERE 08/28/05
    LETHA' FOREVA' ! 010607
    I'm sorry, I haven't been paying much attention for the last 3 hours.....what were we discussing?
    "but I guarentee you I will FF your arse off" from>
    http://www.firehouse.com/forums/show...60#post1137060post 115

  10. #10
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    May 1999
    Location
    Berks County, PA
    Posts
    629

    Default

    We carry 1800 ft. of 5" on our engine, the vast majority of which is 5 years old or older, and we still have this problem to some extent. Here are my best suggestions:

    1. A hose bed cover (soft or hard) will take care of the problem of the load "catching wind"

    2. Packing couplings toward the front of the truck will help keep sections from hanging up on each other or the grab bar when you lay the load, but is a wash in terms of the slippage problem. In essence, having no couplings near the back of the truck means that they can't bounce off and pull hose with them, but it also makes the load slope to the back of the truck, making slippage a little more likely.

    3. Straps and hooks are often your best bet. If your 5" is pre-connected to a valve on the tailboard, make sure that your straps for the valve are big enough that you can also strap the hose down with the valve. In addition, strapping a small "drop load" together (maybe with some hydrant tools or adapters) and hooking it to the grab bar can secure enough of the end of the load to keep it from laying itself out.

    Hope this helps.

  11. #11
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Jan 1999
    Location
    MA
    Posts
    1,744

    Default

    GET IT DIRTY!

    Seriously, our hosebeds are setup so that the LDH bed tops out probably 10 or so inches below the top of the hosebed. For the most part we don't have too much trouble with the "automatic lay". Our newest engine has a piece of diamond plate at the front of the hosebed that is at a 45 degree angle. Like a spoiler on a car. Haven't had any trouble with that one either...(running to find wood now to prevent it from happening)

    Dave

  12. #12
    MembersZone Subscriber
    SamsonFCDES's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Posts
    1,708

    Default

    Try a LDR (large diameter rookie). Have him sit on the hose, that should keep it in place...

    Seriously, we had this happen once, lucky it wasent an emergency. One of the fellows was takeing an engine to the 4th of July parade. the wanted his gear on the truck just incase. He got most of it in the overstuffed compartments, but he though it would be cool to display his helmet on the hosebed... He straped it to a chunk of hose... Wind caught said helmet... auto lay of a most embarrasing caliber... helmet was "skieing" down the road attached to the hose which was rapidly laying itself... LOL

    The helmet had to be taken out of service, as did a few sections of hose.

    We use one of those cool spider web bungy cords, the one that has 8 or so points, spreads out like a spider. It is even in brite red so it looks kind of cool.
    -Brotherhood: I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.
    -Mistakes: It could be that the purpose of you life is to serve as a warning to others.

    -Adversity: That which does not kill me postpones the inevitable.

    -Despair: Its always darkest before it goes Pitch Black.

  13. #13
    District Chief
    distchief60b's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    6,413

    Default

    Mr. President......

    Most people that have experienced this tell me that they believe it to be caused by the wind getting under the hose as they drive. The wind in combination with the residual air that is almost impossible to get out causes the hose to flip over itself and "lay out."

    Solutions:
    Have a cover manufactured that is about 3 feet in length and the width of the hose bed. Attach it with a heavy duty piano type hinge to the front of the hose bed. This will hold the hose down and keep the wind off. It is easly raised and secured to something with a latch or strap so it is out of the way during re-packing.

    OR.....Use what I believe is called the "Fire Town Load"??? some one help me out if I am wrong. In this case whenever you come to a coupling you use a dutchman to change the direction of the hose and get all the couplings at the front end of the hose bed. This places all the weight on the front of the hose load and will keep it in the bed.
    09-11 .. 343 "All Gave Some..Some Gave ALL" God Bless..R.I.P.
    ------------------------------
    IACOJ Minister of Southern Comfort
    "Purple Hydrant" Recipient (3 Times)
    BMI Investigator
    ------------------------------
    The comments, opinions, and positions expressed here are mine. They are expressed respectfully, in the spirit of safety and progress. They do not reflect the opinions or positions of my employer or my department.

  14. #14
    MembersZone Subscriber
    ullrichk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Deleted by the forum gremlins
    Posts
    1,663

    Default

    Speaking of the air in the hose . . .

    New hose doesn't seem to want to lay well in the hose bed. We improvised a storz-to-shop-vac adapter (which required considerable amounts of duct tape) and sucked a new hose load flat in about 20 min. We only had to do this once.

    If you're new to LDH, when you get ready to take up, break the LDH lay at the highest point in the lay and fold the coupling back to seal the end of the hose. Break the lay at the lowest point and the water will create a vacuum as it drains. Your LDH will look like it has been ironed flat.
    ullrichk
    a.k.a.
    perfesser

    a ship in a harbor is safe. . . but that's not what ships are for

  15. #15
    MembersZone Subscriber
    jsdobson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2001
    Location
    Anchorage, AK
    Posts
    220

    Default

    perfesser,

    There is a commercially available set of plastic rollers that are connected via a hinge. There are also handles on both sides of the rollers so they can be held by one or two firefighters. The sections of hose are disconnected and the air and water are forced out of the hose as the rollers are placed above and below the hose and pushed down the hose. Once the rollers have reached the end of the hose, just fold the coupling over the hose to keep air out of the hose until you're ready to load it on the apparatus.

    If you don't like the idea of the rollers, which have a bad tendency to pinch fingers, you can always roll up the hose to drain the air and water out of the hose. Once our hose is rolled, we use a commerically available "lazy susan" to rotate the hose as we load it onto the hosebed.

    Dobber
    BE SAFE
    Before Everything, Stop And First Evaluate

  16. #16
    Forum Member
    DeputyChiefGonzo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2000
    Location
    Somewhere between genius and insanity!
    Posts
    13,586

    Default

    Originally posted by stm4710
    Well Ron,
    If you all in Marlboro got your heads out of your bum and accept the fact that your trucks are first rate,third rate junk wagons you wouldnt have a problem. Wait.....your an instructor at the academy and cant even pack hose right????? I feel sorry for these new recruits.

    Anyway,a 4x8'sheet of 5/8"ths plywood does the job nicely.
    Well, I don't know what to say to you ...except...

    Kiss my Axe!
    PS: I love kittens (mfd joke!)
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

  17. #17
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Apr 2000
    Posts
    770

    Default

    I was kind of curious myself what the apparatus had to do with the hose.....

  18. #18
    MembersZone Subscriber
    ullrichk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Deleted by the forum gremlins
    Posts
    1,663

    Default

    Originally posted by jsdobson
    There is a commercially available set of plastic rollers that are connected via a hinge. There are also handles on both sides of the rollers so they can be held by one or two firefighters.
    Got 'em, but I'd prefer to let gravity do the work for me! We found that we get more air in the line by breaking down the lay at every coupling than if we leave it intact. The only exception being the first time we load the stuff out of the box - hence the shop vac idea.
    ullrichk
    a.k.a.
    perfesser

    a ship in a harbor is safe. . . but that's not what ships are for

  19. #19
    MembersZone Subscriber
    ChiefReason's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2001
    Location
    Illinois-where pertnear is close enough!
    Posts
    5,636

    Default

    In regards to LDH, does anyone know(I'm sure someone does) at what pressure 5-inch hose should be tested? What is the rating right out of the box?
    Your help is most appreciated.
    CR
    Visit www.iacoj.com
    Remember Bradley Golden (9/25/01)
    RIP HOF Robert J. Compton(ENG6511)

  20. #20
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    736

    Default LDH

    The 3 engines in my dept. all have 5" leather LDH and we had that problem one time as well. We now put all our couplings at the front of the bed and more importantly we make sure the folds are tucked over the couplings slightly behind them which prevents the wind from taking the whole length off. We also us bungee cords.

    P.S. I'm glad I transferred into the Truck company

  21. #21
    Forum Member
    tripperff's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    Homer, NY
    Posts
    130

    Default for ChiefReason

    LDH hose should be service tested annually at 200 psi for 5 minutes.

    for anyone who's interested:

    A member of our FD who owns a machine shop made a single roller for our LDH. The way it works is two firefighters set it under the hose and walk the water out of it after gravity has done all it can. DO NOT BREAK THE COUPLINGS! (In my opinion breaking the couplings is where you get a lot of air in the hose. We had a guy transfer to our FD and shortly after that he was on a hose testing detail with 2000' of 4" on the ground. As everyone else was taking a short break before loading the hose, he had the bright idea of breaking the couplings to drain the water. When everyone else saw him they let him have it. To this day he is still known as 'Snap-Tite', you do the math on that) This leaves a little water in the hose, which is good in the long run for us. When it's time to load we just drive alongside the hose and feed it back up into the hosebed. As the little bit of water left in the hose drains it gets sucked flat as a flounder. You kinda need it flat when there's 2000' of LDH in the hosebed. If anyone is interested I can send a picture of the roller.
    Last edited by tripperff; 09-17-2003 at 05:11 PM.
    Cleverly disguised as a responsible adult.

    Anything found in my posts is soley my opinion and not representative of any other individual or entity.

    You know that thing inside your helmet? Use it wisely and you'll be just fine.

  22. #22
    Forum Member
    Weruj1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 1999
    Location
    NW Ohio
    Posts
    7,857

    Default

    CR ................200 psi @ 5 for test and I believe it is rated @ 400 psi right outa the box.........or rated that way for the duration.
    IACOJ both divisions and PROUD OF IT !
    Pardon me sir.. .....but I believe we are all over here !
    ATTENTION ALL SHOPPERS: Will the dead horse please report to the forums.(thanks Motown)
    RAY WAS HERE 08/28/05
    LETHA' FOREVA' ! 010607
    I'm sorry, I haven't been paying much attention for the last 3 hours.....what were we discussing?
    "but I guarentee you I will FF your arse off" from>
    http://www.firehouse.com/forums/show...60#post1137060post 115

  23. #23
    MembersZone Subscriber
    ullrichk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Deleted by the forum gremlins
    Posts
    1,663

    Default

    Not all LDH is created equal with respect to test and operating pressures. Our older stuff is service tested to 200 psi. Our newest is something like 300 psi. (It's not at my station, so I can't go check it at the moment.)

    In any event, the service test and initial test pressures should be stenciled on the hose from the factory.
    ullrichk
    a.k.a.
    perfesser

    a ship in a harbor is safe. . . but that's not what ships are for

  24. #24
    Forum Member
    firenresq77's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2000
    Location
    Northwest Ohio
    Posts
    5,213

    Default

    In any event, the service test and initial test pressures should be stenciled on the hose from the factory.
    Took the words right out of my mouth.


    We use a canvas cover for all of our hose beds, also. With the 5" LDH, we use the flat load. The last 6' or so is folded and we have a nylon strap with seatbelt bucles that is fastened to it. We then set the coupling back so it won't bounce out and when needed to hit the hydrant, all you have to do is grab the strap (which has a loop in it) and pull. Then throw the loop arounf the hydrant and have then engine go. I will try to get a picture to post of it.

  25. #25
    Forum Member
    Weruj1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 1999
    Location
    NW Ohio
    Posts
    7,857

    Default

    my hero !
    IACOJ both divisions and PROUD OF IT !
    Pardon me sir.. .....but I believe we are all over here !
    ATTENTION ALL SHOPPERS: Will the dead horse please report to the forums.(thanks Motown)
    RAY WAS HERE 08/28/05
    LETHA' FOREVA' ! 010607
    I'm sorry, I haven't been paying much attention for the last 3 hours.....what were we discussing?
    "but I guarentee you I will FF your arse off" from>
    http://www.firehouse.com/forums/show...60#post1137060post 115

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts

Log in

Click here to log in or register