1. #1
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    Default 3D Gaseous-phase Firefighting

    When to hit a fire in the gaseous-phase and when to take it in the fuel-phase - Do you know? I have posted for several years on this forum concerning this approach to structural firefighting. 3D Firefighting HERE However, firefighters continue to lose their lives because they got it the wrong way round! This approach will end the smooth-bore/fog debate for good!

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    deep breath...sigh

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    Not going to say a word.............

    Keep your head down and your powder dry.
    _______________________
    Lt.Jason Knecht
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    Not going to say a word............. Deep breath (sigh)....
    Sorry I thought these forums were for debate! Maybe I am taking the implications incorrectly here but I would have hoped that a Lt. would be more concerned about looking after his crew.

    In the USA the annual firefighter death rate in structure fires has shown no signs of decreasing over the past twenty years.Further, the rate of traumatic deaths (burns; smoke inhalation; crushing) in structures is actually demonstrating an increase over the same period!

    Deep breath.........sigh

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    Originally posted by Batt18


    Sorry I thought these forums were for debate!

    In the USA the annual firefighter death rate in structure fires has shown no signs of decreasing over the past twenty years.

    Debate, yes. Shameless plugs? NO!!!

    Furthermore, Paul, did you ever consider that maybe the increasing death rate in structure fires is because of people like you? You're confusing the inexperienced firefighters of today by instructing them to go around shooting fog inside a fire. No wonder these over-read amateurs are buying crappy nozzles and thinking they're the cat's ***.

    And another thing... bragging about your 'detachment' to 45 Engine in the South Bronx. I know for a fact that if you look at their hosebed you'll find nothing but smoothbores with 15/16" (1-3/4" line) or 1-1/8" (2-1/2" line) MSTs. Not one South Bronx Engineman would ever buy the crap your selling. I dare you to walk into that firehouse today and lie a copy of your book "3D Firefighting" on the kitchen table during the meal. Why are you misrepresenting your experiences?
    Last edited by UsingAllHands; 09-22-2003 at 10:28 AM.

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    Thumbs down

    Dam% I got suckered. Just by clicking on his site I made his
    propaganda BS look like it has more followers! seen by xxxxxx
    number of firemen from xxxxx number of departments from
    xxx number of countries. Dose any one else feel used?
    And to use these forums to exploit the memory of a LODD
    9-11 chief of fdny to try and sell something makes me ill. I would not buy anything
    you are selling, thanks but just shut the ---- up

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    This approach will end the smooth-bore/fog debate for good!
    NEWS FLASH: PEACE IN THE MID-EAST, HELL FROZEN, RED SOX WIN WORLD SERIES!!!!!!

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    UsingAllHands - Firstly I find your tone pretty offensive! I do not remember having conversed with you in the past four years unless it was under another name.

    Shameless plug? Brother I haven't made a damn penny from my work over the past 25 years and that includes over 100 articles and 3 books to date. I won't 'brag' where that money has gone. I merely write about things I have learned over 30 years as a firefighter in London and the USA. Some of these things save lives - its proven by pretty dramatic statistics.

    I have instructed firefighters to adapt their approach in an effort to counter specific fireground hazards. These adaptions do include the use of water-fog but in a way that they are not familiar with. Therefore I place great emphasis on TRAINING in these techniques under qualified and experienced instructors.

    So you think FDNY don't use fog nozzles eh? I would be happy to return to New York and take any of their firefighters through our training program. I KNOW from past experience that most of them would be impressed how fog patterns may be used to exert control over a fire. I am sure their combination nozzles would find their way back to the hose-bed from the lockers they are stored.

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    I agree with the others. Debate is fine, but this issue is like the leather helmet vs. fiberglass issue; or lights on your POV; or any number of others that go round and round here.

    You post this about every three months or so to get the new folks comnig to your site. Sounds like shilling a product to me.

    And as for the US firefighter fatalities, if you want to look at the causes of death, there are far more heart attacks and MVAs than all other causes combined. Frankly, I'm offended that you spew your misinformation from across the ocean to try and attract business.

    Numbers on LODDs this year, from the USFA:

    Heart attack: 32
    MVA: 24
    Collapse: 3
    Struck by vehicle: 3
    Head Injury: 2
    Other: 4*
    Flashover: 2

    I think we would do far better to spend our firefighter fatality prevention efforts on health and fitness, and driver training, than confusing everybody with your "debate."

    Do us a favor: buy some advertising instead of plugging up the forums.




    *Other includes: Injuries suffered in controlled burn (might be flashover. That'd push that number all the way to 3); fighting forest fire; and Heat from exposure.
    Omnis Cedo Domus

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    Surprised at you Lt!! When we had this debate just a year back you were pretty open-minded by the end of it.

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    Originally posted by Batt18


    So you think FDNY don't use fog nozzles eh?
    WE DO use them... On car fires, rubbish, grass, etc. There is one fog nozzle on my rig, and it's on the 50 foot trash line on the front bumper. It works great for those BS fires but never in a million years would I dream of dragging a line down a hallway with that thing on the end.

    As far as your offer to come train us...No thanks, we already know how to fight fires. That's what we do every day instead of writing books about it.

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    And as for the US firefighter fatalities, if you want to look at the causes of death, there are far more heart attacks
    Firefighter fatalities are rising - heart attacks as a cause have been dropping steadily for years! What does that tell you?

    I would have thought that firefighters in such a position would have been open-minded enough to explore any opportunity to reduce life-losses amongst others. When are you guys gonna realise - this isn't about smooth-bore versus fog patterns!

    And don't tell me I've exploited anybody's name to seel a product - brother you are WAY outta line!

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    we already know how to fight fires
    Oh boy still a lot to learn in life from that statement!

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    Firefighter fatalities are rising - heart attacks as a cause have been dropping steadily for years! What does that tell you?
    What does that tell me? That you have a penchant for making up figures to support yourself.

    STOP MAKING UP INFORMATION.

    Fact: Since 1975, excluding September 11, 2001, the US has had an average of 100-110 firefighters killed in the line of duty every year.

    Fact: Heart attack and MVA have been the leading cause of death for firefighters in the US for the last ten years.

    Go to http://www.usfa.fema.gov/ and get your damn figures.


    Your inclination to make up whatever "facts" might be handy, calls into question everything you say, and ruins your crediblity.
    Omnis Cedo Domus

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    Jaybird - I am talking STRUCTURE FIRES! I cannot understand your offensive tones when I have come here purely to debate. I am NOT selling any product! I am not gaining financially and never have done!
    I am referring to NFPA stats on STRUCTURE FIRES cos that's my area of study. I am not into forests and MVAs.

    I say again - firefighter life losses in structure fires are increasing (per number of structure fires). The number of heart victims has been reducing for years.

    NFPA - July 2002 (Fahy)

    Do your research before mouthing off to me!

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    Surprised at you Lt!! When we had this debate just a year back you were pretty open-minded by the end of it.
    I'm very open minded, my "humorous" post was in response to "ending the smooth-bore/fog debate" The debate will never die.

    I continue to read your work with interest.

    To my Brother AllHands, I will vouch for Paul and his work. I don't always embrace it, but appreciate his work. I never sensed commercial gain as the reason for his threads.

    I don't see my primary attack line having a fog nozzle attached to it in the near or distant future. However, I have been exploring these tactics for use with the limited 2 1/2 gallons of water carried by our Canman.

    Paul?
    Last edited by E229Lt; 09-22-2003 at 11:40 AM.

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    Bless you Lou! I appreciate your support and acknowledge we have a way to go brother before you are able to embrace the concepts of past debates. My reference to the smooth v fog debate is purely to demonstrate that there is NO debate! I am a BIG fan of the smooth-bore approach and the new book goes into great detail in describing how firefighters can recognise when to dump the fog pattern for a direct attack. Its not a case of one or the other - both arguments are wrong. Its a case of BOTH - but under the right circumstances!

    Glad to see the Red Sox ain't gonna win the series

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    Okay, loo.

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    However, I have been exploring these tactics for use with the limited 2 1/2 gallons of water carried by our Canman.
    E229 Lt - GREAT to hear. I know the can is used as a source of controlling the environment for primary rescue purposes. Yes definitely! The effect is the same but obviously the user is still in great danger because of flow limitations. Equally, I know your guys will control the entry door to minimise air feeding into the fire.

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    Default Does this thread sound like a Infomercial?

    Not really familair with your ideas but you can make statistics up to prove anything.
    Like did you know 3 out of 4 people make up only 75% of the population!

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    You know, I am kinda suprised at the tone this thread took.

    I have been part of these forums for several years, and have emailed Paul back on forth on different topics. He has a wealth of imformation, and his interest is in promoting what he believes are tactics that will help us. Don't want to believe him, then don't. Don't want to try them, no problem. But to slam the crap out him for promoting thinking, even if the thinking is contrary to what you believe...come on folks.

    Last time I checked, these forums were here to network, share ideas, and maybe even learn a thing or two. Tired of reading about the 3-D tactics, then stop reading them. Don't kill the messenger.

    Everyone has something to offer, from the big cities right on down to little ole town USA....maybe Paul is pushing his stuff a lot, but it is a technique he believes will help save lives...maybe he is wrong, at least he ain't trying to sell you insurance.

    Dave

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    To echo Dave, Paul has been posting here for a long time and I get the impression that his only intentions are to help his brother and sister firefighters.

    I encourage everyone to spend some time reading the articles on his website. His ideas are well researched and thought provoking.

    My final thought is, it's refreshing to see debates on firefighting tactics on here rather than the same old BS lights, helmets, etc. For that I say "Thanks Paul!"
    FTM-PTB-DTRT

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    Don't forget- Paul isn't just some annoying pusher of "European firefighting." I've seen posts of his where he speaks of trying to take American ventilation tactics back home to England. And guess what- I bet they aren't thrilled about it either! "New" is not "bad"!

    Paul strikes me as a natural teacher with a sincere desire to help other firefighters. He did not deserve what he got in this thread. Opinions are like.... well, a few different things- but everybody's got one!

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    Just saw this thread, and I'll jump in here -

    Having been taught the techniques that Paul promotes I'll simply say this -
    Without them I wouldn't be here today (nor would the guys with me) - at a fire a few months ago things took a sudden turn for the worse and if I hadn't of known how to use gas cooling techniques we would have been caught in the flashover that was about to occur - we wouldn't have made it back to the door before the room would have flashed. It was just lucky that I was on the knob that day.

    Works for me!
    Busy polishing the stacked tips on the deckgun of I.A.C.O.J. Engine#1

    ...and before you ask - YES I have done a Bloody SEARCH!

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    I, too will echo Dave aka hfd66 truck's statements. I took a flashover recognition course with Dave at his FD. I have seen "up close and persnal" how a short burst of fog can delay the flashover to get time to escape. 3d fog attacks might not be the correct answer for every fire... but if they can get a crew out of a flashover situation, go home to their families and live to fight another day, then it is a good thing...Paul Grimwood's tactics are just another tool in our firefighting arsenal!
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

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