1. #1
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    Unhappy help me with new truck specs

    MY DEPARTMENT, DERBY VOL. FIRE DEPT. IN RICHMOND COUNTY, NORTH CAROLINA WAS AWARDED A FIRE ACT GRANT IN ROUND 14 FOR A NEW PUMPER TANKER. THIS POST IS TO INVITE VENDORS TO REQUEST OUR SPECS TO BID ON THIS TRUCK AND TO GET FEEDBACK FROM OTHERS ON THE FINAL SPECS.
    OUR PLAN IS TO HAVE SPECS READY BY OCT 20TH WITH BIDS NEEDED BY NOV 1ST. IíVE SET UP AN EMAIL ACCOUNT FOR THIS : derbyvfd@netscape.net OR SEND INFO BY MAIL TO DERBY FIRE DEPT, 2179 DERBY ROAD, ELLERBE NC 28338.
    THE TRUCK WE ARE LOOKING FOR WILL BE A COMMERCIAL CHASSIS WITH THE FOLLOWING BASIC THINGS:
    CHASSIS; 2 OR 4 DOOR CAB, DEPENDING ON $, LEANING TOWARD INTERNATIONAL BUT ARE OPEN TO OTHER MAKES. 270 AMP ALTERNATOR AND 3 OR 4 GROUP 31 BATTERIES REQUIRED.
    DIESEL ENGINE, MANUAL OR AUTOMATIC TRANSMISSION, WEíRE RURAL AGRICULTURAL AND EVERYONE CAN DRIVE MEDIUM DUTY STICK, ALTHOUGH I BUY AUTOMATICS FOR MY BUSINESS.
    PUMP; 1250 OR 1500 GPM SINGLE STAGE, WE HAVE HALE BUT ARE OPEN TO OTHERS.
    TANK; 1000 GAL POLY OR SS
    BODY; SS, ALUMINUM OR GALVINEAL AND WITH OUR BUDGET WILL PROBABLY BE STEEL WHICH IS ACCEPTABLE BECAUSE IN THE YEARS IT DOES SNOW THE STATE NEITHER SCRAPES OR SALTS THE ROADS IN OUR DISTRICT.
    SIDE PUMP PANEL; CANíT STAND THE LENGTH OF TOP MOUNT IN DRIVEWAYS AND WE ARE HAULING OUR WATER SO PUMP OPERATOR NEEDS TO BE ON THE GROUND TO DIRECT NURSING AND DUMP TANK OPERATIONS. WE WENT TO PORTABLE RADIOS WITH PAGING FOR ALL MEMBERS SO COMMUNICATIONS ARE BETTER AND YOU CAN USUALLY SPOT TRUCK WHERE SIDE OPERATOR CAN SEE ANYWAY.
    1íí BOOSTER REEL, OPEN TO LOCATION AS IíVE SEEN SOME GOOD IDEAS ON THESE FORUMS.
    PLUMBED FOR 3íí DECK GUN.
    FOAM TANK, I DONíT THINK WE CAN AFFORD CAFS BUT WOULD LIKE TO SEE A DESIGN IN WHICH WE COULD ADD IT LATER WITHOUT A HUGE COST PENALTY.
    GENERATOR; BELT OR PTO POSSIBLE BUT WILL PROBABLY USE GAS 5000 WATT GENERATOR WE OWN.
    SQUARE TAIL STYLE BODY WITH REAR BUMPER AND NO TAILBOARD TO ADD COMPARTMENT SPACE AND CONTROL LENGTH.

    AND NOW FOR THE ITEM THAT WILL MAKE THIS TRUCK DIFFICULT TO GET FOR OUR $149,500.00 BUDGET: TRUCK TO BE EQUIPPED WITH NFPA 1901 2003 EDITION REQUIRED EQUIPMENT. WE MAY BREAK OUT HOSE, NOZZLES, SCUBA, ETC. AND BID SEPARATELY.

    THIS IS OUR FIRST NEW TRUCK PURCHASE IN OUR 25 YEAR OLD DEPT. AND WE WILL APPRECIATE FEEDBACK FROM OTHER DEPARTMENTS WHO HAVE BOUGHT TRUCKS FOR THEIR RURAL DISTRICTS.
    THANKS IN ADVANCE,ÖBRION RICHARDSON DVFD.

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    First off, congrats on the award.

    Second point, which is more of a question: Didn't you have bids prior to submission so you knew how much to ask for? Contrary to popular belief, you get the award on the merits of the application, not the amount asked for. You might be hard pressed to find such a truck for that price with what you want on it. I know it's possible that all you could come up with for matching was $15K so that forced your hand, but for others reading this that want to go for trucks next year, get bids first. If your local reps don't want to talk until you have money, then you probably don't want to buy their truck anyway. I only had 3 major manufacturers work with me for our rescue last year, prior to the application deadline. After we were awarded the other 5 or 6 had the nerve to call me up telling me that they're ready to get started. By that time we already had a signed deal from one of the other 3. Sorry, but good customer service starts before money changes hands.

    Anyway, your best (and easiest) way to check around for feedback would be to hit the New Delivery pages of the various manufacturers to see who else has recently bought something like what you want and then call them up.

    I can't remember them all but here's a few:
    www.piercemfg.com
    www.e-one.com
    www.kovatch.com
    www.crimson-fire.com
    www.seagrave.com

    Also, ask about the ease of retro-fitting for CAFS. Our local Pierce Reps retro'd quite a few Pierce trucks (obviously), but also several E-One's and Quality's so it can probably be done on most trucks. All components were inside the pump area so no compartments were lost.

    Happy hunting, and congrats again.

    Brian
    Brian P. Vickers
    www.vickersconsultingservices.com
    Emergency Services Consulting
    Westlake VFD - Houston, TX
    Proud Member IACOJ - Redneck Division

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    Default Re: help me with new truck specs

    Originally posted by briontci


    AND NOW FOR THE ITEM THAT WILL MAKE THIS TRUCK DIFFICULT TO GET FOR OUR $149,500.00 BUDGET: TRUCK TO BE EQUIPPED WITH NFPA 1901 2003 EDITION REQUIRED EQUIPMENT. WE MAY BREAK OUT HOSE, NOZZLES, SCUBA, ETC. AND BID SEPARATELY.


    Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but part of the requirements for a vehicle grant was that equipment (nozzles, scba, hose, etc) could not be included.

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    Forgot that part. It's a definite maybe. Ground ladders are requirements on most trucks, and therefore are already included in the price of the truck. Hose, nozzles, hydraulic tools, and any other equipment can technically be included in any spec written. We were going to include Hurst pumps in our rescue last year, but the rep told me that Hurst hates to do that so it costs the manufacturers (and us) $10K for a simo pump instead of $7K from a reseller. Most other equipment I would imagine to be the same. I semi-checked with FEMA on it and I didn't hear any objections to the practice but it would definitely be something to ask them before proceeding. They may allow it because so many departments are short on coin that they'd have to include it in the spec, otherwise they'd have an empty truck.

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    BRIAN,
    WE HAD PRICES FOR COMMERCIAL PUMPERS AND THE PURPOSE OF THIS POST IS TO MAKE SURE THAT WE GET MOST TRUCK FOR THE MONEY AVAILABLE. WHAT I DIDNíT HAVE WAS NFPA 1901 WHICH I ORDERED ON THE DAY 2003 EDITION CAME OUT. THE INSTRUCTIONS FOR 2003 SAID THAT A VEHICLE REQUEST COULD INCLUDE NFPA 1901 REQUIRED EQUIPMENT AND I INCLUDED LADDERS AND SUCTION HOSE AND OTHER MOUNTED EQUIPMENT ALONG WITH HOSE BUT I DIDNíT INCLUDE ENOUGH FOR SCBA AND OTHER REQUIRED EQUIPMENT. THE TRUCK WE ARE REPLACING IS A 1975 TANKER WITH NO PUMP SO WE DONíT HAVE THE EQUIPMENT TO TRANSFER TO IT.
    I HAVE PRINTED COPY OF ALL INSTRUCTIONS THAT WERE ON WEB SITE WHEN I SUBMITTED. I HADNíT SEEN THIS FORUM OR YOUR SITE BEFORE I SUBMITTED OUR APP. IF I HAD I MAY HAVE ASKED FOR ~ 200K WHICH WOULD HAVE GIVEN US A TOP OF THE LINE RURAL PUMPER.
    WHEN I WENT TO FEMA SEMINAR ON GRANTS THEY STRONGLY DISCOURAGED DEPTS FROM APPLYING FOR VEHICLES AND TOLD US THAT BASIC APPARATUS WOULD HAVE THE BEST SLIM HOPE OF BEING FUNDED.
    THANKSÖBRION

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    You won't have to worry too much about complying with 1901. Manufacturers can't let the truck leave the building non-compliant without a release from the buyer that states that the buyer understands that the truck is not NFPA compliant.

    FEMA always discourages vehicle applications. They are the hardest to justify, and cost the most. It's tough to get vehicles approved, which sounds like a stupid statement considering the number of vehicles that have been approved this year. But you have to take into account the funds available this year being twice as much as last year. And I think a lot of people finally hunkered down and wrote better applications this year than in past, especially for vehicles. Or got help from some strange guy from Texas with a web site that's free to use.(www.firegraphics.org)

    And the basic apparatus part is in contrast to what they say about being innovative with the truck to fill a lot of needs. Which is why all of the hybrids are Priority 1: Quints, Rescue-Pumpers, Pumper-Tankers. Look at how many high dollar trucks have gone out: 2 at $450K, 1 at $405K, 1 at $315K, and 46 more over $200K.

    As sure as I'm standing here I believe this: your application is not reviewed by dollar amount, it is done on merits. As long as you validate the reason it may cost a lot. Adding $25-30K to a truck to put CAFS on it is a very easy cost increase to justify. Moving to a larger or custom chassis to get a bigger (400+HP) engine so that you don't kill the truck in hill country is too. If you ask for bells and whistles just to have bells and whistles, you're SOL. Tower Ladders cost more, but if you need a platform because of all of the elderly people in mid-rise apartment complexes that you may have to evacuate, you more than justified the cost.

    Anywho, I saw someone in the Apparatus forum said you should have an easy time building it for that price. If you can afford to over match to put the CAFS on, it's more than worth the money. But obviously buy the hose and SCBA first. Have to prioritize.

    Don't forget to send us a picture when it comes in.

    Brian

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    I am really concerned about this.........you got the FEMA grant and didn't have a truck spec'd out?
    How the hell did you get the grant then? I was told that you had to have everything spec'd out in order to be considered for the grant. How can FEMA give you money if you didn't know what you wanted in the first place?
    This whole FEMA thing is really starting to light a fire under my behind!

    Anyway, call up KME and ask them for the CAT disk. It's free too, I picked one up at the Harrisburgh Fire Expo. You can load it into your computer and build a truck right there in front of you, then print it out. That's a good place to start anyways. HME has a website that you can build a truck online. Crimson fire trucks are pretty nice, there is dealer for them that lives right down the street from me and he brings trucks home all the time to deliver to different fire depts. Not a bad quality truck there.

    By the way......Hey Brian.....thanx again for all your help......we are deep in thought now
    Last edited by sandycreektwp; 09-26-2003 at 05:24 PM.

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    You don't have to have the truck spec'd as in ready to sign papers, but obviously you need to have a ballpark figure, which Brion said that they got. And technically, I can't find anything in the rules that say you have to have a figure even close to reality. Which would kinda make sense if you look at how many people have Vehicle grants for $225K. I don't think that many people are building the same exact truck. Anywho, I recommend having a spec built and "bids" given so that you don't screw yourself by not asking for enough.

    Sandy - not a problem. I'll have paperwork together this weekend to email up to y'all.

    Stay safe, and keep all y'alls fingers crossed.

    Brian

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    Brian,
    Iíve talked to the members of our truck committee and we are wanting to add cafs to our truck and we are able to provide the matching funds, if need to Iíll pay it myself. My question is how to ask for this increase in funds since we didnít mention it at all in our application and may well go over our request in funding what we applied for.
    Thanks, Brion

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    There is no increase in funds, as far as what you're getting from FEMA. The $149K or whatever it was that y'all got is all you're getting from them. You can do what's called overmatching, where you put in more than 10% of the costs. Essentially, at $150K in federal funds, you must have estimated your project to be $166,666K. So your portion would be $16,666. If CAFS wasn't included in that price, and it costs $20K, the department will have to kick in the extra $20K making the matching $36,666. This is allowed as long as the extra costs on your end are for related items within the original bid (CAFS addition, larger pump/engine/tank, lighting, etc). As long as FEMA's chunk is less than 90% of the total project cost, you're fine. If my numbers were right (and they're probably not) the percentages would be department - 19.7%, FEMA - 80.3%, which is fine since last time I checked 80 was less than 90.

    As noble as paying for it yourself is, I'd recommend looking for other sources. Of course, nothing says that you have to pay your chunk all at once either, as far as I've found in the rules. You have to use everything from FEMA, but nothing says that you can't pay your matching portion, and then finance the last $20K or so. You may be able to finance all of your matching since technically a loan is a private agreement between you and a lending entity. As far as the deal with FEMA and the grant, you paid for everything in full with cash in hand at delivery time. Financing your part may make it a little easier to handle. I can't see them getting in an uproar over that. I know a lot of departments would be spending close to their last dime to make matching, so I personally wouldn't object to people financing a little. If it keeps the department from going bankrupt I'd say go for it.

    Don't forget, you can request up to 50% of the federal funds at the time of order to realize discounts on the truck. That may make the impact of adding CAFS a little less. The rest you can't request until delivery time.

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