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  1. #21
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    Originally posted by captstanm1
    hwoods......akron saberjets?????? I thought that was the name of a girls club in ohio!

    I can not believe this topic is here yet AGAIN!
    Really, there were many other topics that asked about which nozzle has better penetration? This wasn't intended to be the standard fog vs. smoothbore topic. It was to get some discussion or evidence on which had better penetration. However, people like yourself filled this topic with a bunch of BS, instead of useful commentary. This topic didn't have to be the same old fog nozzle vs. smoothbore, but you people make it out to be because you cannot expand on your thinking. (With the exception of the guy that replied after I first posted this topic). This isn't intended to stir up more controversy, but the fact that you are insulting me because you don't take the time to answer the question or respond to the specific topic kind of ****es me off.

    The only reason why I posted this topic was based on what I read in a book, saying that a 100 psi fog nozzle has better penetration, and I was looking for feedback from people, because all I've heard in the past is that the smoothbore has better penetration.


  2. #22
    55 Years & Still Rolling hwoods's Avatar
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    Post OK, Let's Back Up A Minute...........

    Eric, The first Engine that I rode on (later, it became the first Engine that I drove) was a 1945 Mack with two attack lines. They were 2 one inch booster lines, 250 ft on each reel, with what we called "Navy nozzles". Later, we got stuff like 1.5 hose, combo nozzles, SCBA, and all kinds of neat stuff. Point is, I've been doing this since 1958, and have probably used almost all the common nozzles that were out there. This is a common thing here on the forums, someone comes along and starts a thread because they have a question, when they could have probably found what they were looking for in the archives. This subject has been beat to death many times over. We weren't picking on you directly, it was just another nozzle thing. Now, let me make one thing clear. IF we misunderstood your question, and you were asking something different, then let me be the first to apoligize. It did appear to me that you just asked the old question over again though. Stay Safe....
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  3. #23
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    Default Re: OK, Let's Back Up A Minute...........

    Originally posted by hwoods
    Eric, The first Engine that I rode on (later, it became the first Engine that I drove) was a 1945 Mack with two attack lines. They were 2 one inch booster lines, 250 ft on each reel, with what we called "Navy nozzles". Later, we got stuff like 1.5 hose, combo nozzles, SCBA, and all kinds of neat stuff. Point is, I've been doing this since 1958, and have probably used almost all the common nozzles that were out there. This is a common thing here on the forums, someone comes along and starts a thread because they have a question, when they could have probably found what they were looking for in the archives. This subject has been beat to death many times over. We weren't picking on you directly, it was just another nozzle thing. Now, let me make one thing clear. IF we misunderstood your question, and you were asking something different, then let me be the first to apoligize. It did appear to me that you just asked the old question over again though. Stay Safe....
    This topic wasn't intended to be "What is better, fog nozzles or smoothbores" or "Which do you prefer?" It was simply asking, does a fog nozzle really have better penetration than a smoothbore, as claims a fog nozzle book I read. I was always under the impression that the soild stream had more penetration, so I was just looking for some input on the matter. I understand if you do not wish to answer the question, or simply do not know the answer (or care for that matter.)

  4. #24
    EuroFirefighter Batt18's Avatar
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    Erics99 - I agree with HWoods in all that he says. However, you also deserve an answer to your post - if they were one! If you search the archives there have been many debates on this very topic. In the end the question cannot be fairly addressed as direct comparison is irrelavent. I have seen many authors attempt to answer this through articles and books - don't always believe what you read!

    The truth is (unbiased answer) that smooth-bores operate at lower nozzle pressures to combination (fog/straight-stream) nozzles and therefore any direct comparison is not logical. If you have a straight-stream (combination) nozzle flowing XYZ at 100psi NP then it will have greater impact (penetration) than a nozzle flowing XYZ at 50psi NP.

    What is 'penetration' anyway? 'Reach (delivery)', 'flow' and 'handling' are the most important aspects of a straight-stream when suppressing fire using a direct attack.

  5. #25
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    erics99... I also agree with hwoods and think I may have used the same nozzle at some time in my career...(oldtimers disease....)

    Also...I was not busting on you for starting the topic. I just think we have rehashed this, beat it, rode it, charged it, argued it, debated it.....and so on. There is not one specific answer to your question.

    To answer your question I will say that I do believe that there are some fog nozzles made by certain manufacturers that when in the low pressure or "emergency" setting will deliver a stream of water that is equivalent to a 15/16" SB nozzle in the same or better configuration with the same or better reach.

    The answer to you question will vary widely with the nozzle you are using, the size of the attack line (1.5", 1.75", 2") and the pressure being pumped.......and on and on....

    So I guess, I am saying that you will find many many opinions on what is the better configuration.
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  6. #26
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    SABERJET = toooo heavy...It has all the weight of a TFT, but not enough pressure to hold it up, so it kinks easily...you have to pump the nozzle at different pressures to operate each style (50 smooth, 75 fog)...


    Hwoods,

    You wouldn't usually flow a smoothbore at 100 psi, so why do it in your test?

  7. #27
    55 Years & Still Rolling hwoods's Avatar
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    Question

    ? ? ? ? ?
    Never use Force! Get a Bigger Hammer.
    In memory of
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    Asst. Chief John R. Woods Sr. 1937 - 2006

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  8. #28
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    You guys! If its peneration you want, you need a penetrating nozzle!

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  9. #29
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    posted by Batt 18, aka Paul Grimwood...
    It's not so much WHAT you have in your hand, at the time.........its what you DO with it that really counts
    Bingo!

    Posted by Erics99...
    This topic wasn't intended to be "What is better, fog nozzles or smoothbores" or "Which do you prefer?" It was simply asking, does a fog nozzle really have better penetration than a smoothbore, as claims a fog nozzle book I read. I was always under the impression that the soild stream had more penetration, so I was just looking for some input on the matter. I understand if you do not wish to answer the question, or simply do not know the answer (or care for that matter.)
    There really is no answer for your question, as it all depends on the knowledge and the courage of the person holding the nozzle. There are "doorway dancers" who are afraid of a little heat and will open up the line with either a smoothbore or combination nozzle at the first hint of smoke, and there are "Jakes" who will crawl into the bowels of hell to put the fire out with a can!

    You can read all the books on firefighting tactics, but a book never put a fire out... it's water, dry chem, dry powder, CO2, Halon (gotta cover all the bases! ), common sense, knowledge of fire behavior and building construction and being able to adapt to the situation and think outside of the box that gets the job done!

    Just my 3 cents worth...Captain have to pay a little more!
    Last edited by CaptainGonzo; 10-10-2003 at 09:06 PM.
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  10. #30
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    Bingo....El Presidente hit the jackpot!
    09-11 .. 343 "All Gave Some..Some Gave ALL" God Bless..R.I.P.
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  11. #31
    Forum Member Fire304's Avatar
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    Originally posted by CaptainGonzo
    water, dry chem. dry powder, CO2, Halon (gotta cover all the bases!
    You know, I don't think I've ever seen a thread titled "Dry Chem vs. CO2, which is better?" lets start one just for fun!!! I bet we could get a few regulars worked up on that one! hehehe
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  12. #32
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    Default My response

    Just thought i would add my thoughts here. When i started 8 yrs ago it was the combo tips on everything. Now it has gone to smoothbore, so with my experience of using both I find each has it's place. When you are at your initial attack into a building you must go in with a smoothbore. It's knock down power is just incomparable with a combo. Something else I notice is something that the training academy's and vol. depts need to watch for. When someone new is going in and they are carrying a combo tip they forget to check it or are just to hyped to remember which the nozzle is set up at and then when they are in and open the line on the fire realizing to late that it is a fog it will only lead to problems with steam. At least with a smoothbore you have one less thing to be concerned with and just can prevent the spread of the fire. To vent and overhaul the combo tip is great but not for knock down. If you really want to see this all you need to do is try it. Test the knockdown with a combo and a smoothbore and you will never go back to a combo.

  13. #33
    EuroFirefighter Batt18's Avatar
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    When you are at your initial attack into a building you must go in with a smoothbore. It's knock down power is just incomparable with a combo.
    That is such a broad generalisation PRFD101 - There are different types of fire. If you can see 100 percent involvement with flames issuing from your entry point then yes, a smooth-bore nozzle may well be the optimum primary attack tool. However, if you can only see smoke rolling out and need to go 'find' the fire, then a 'combo' nozzle is by far the better option.

    When someone new is going in and they are carrying a combo tip they forget to check it or are just to hyped to remember which the nozzle is set up at and then when they are in and open the line on the fire realizing to late that it is a fog it will only lead to problems with steam.
    Then your training program needs seriously addressing! The 'new' guy should neither be working on his own but under supervision of an old hand who can check the 'hype'.

    To vent and overhaul the combo tip is great but not for knock down. If you really want to see this all you need to do is try it.
    Yes I agree - you really need to see and try this because it ain't so in ALL situations. In some the combo wins out, in others the smooth-bore wins out! You cannot suggest for one minute that a smooth-bore nozzle is the most efficient for dealing with a rollover situation in a corridor; or for cooling the super-heated gas layers existing in the overhead in an adjacent room!

    If you make such broad generalisations about any specific nozzle then we are back to 'plain-old' smooth .v. fog debate here!

  14. #34
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    You know, there are rarely any absolutes about anything.....and a couple of huge factors in what tactics and equipment Departments use is policy and budget.

    Leather helmets, polycarbs, composites.....

    Bunker pants, 3/4 boots......

    Nomex, PBI, Cotton duck(just for you Chief)......

    CO2, dry chem(Gonzo's contribution).....

    Synthetic hose, cotton jacketed.....

    Smoothbore, or combos........

    All these different tools are used everyday by firefighters across the world, and I am sure I missed a bunch of comparisons with stuff that is used in Europe. Somehow these jakes are putting out fires. With whatever equipment they are allowed to use, by policy of their Department.

    Are some methods more effective? Sure. Do other methods still get the job done? You bet.

    While the advantages have been argued at length, we should be keeping the conversation civil (which this one has been for the most part) and SHARING idea, methods, tactics and techniques. Why? So we can all be better at what we do. I'll guarantee you that this debate could be won by the smoothbore side and my Department would still use combo tips, and there isn't a thing I can do to change that...yet.

    So remember, it will go out. Sometimes because you put it out, other times because the fuel ran out.

  15. #35
    EuroFirefighter Batt18's Avatar
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    OK Here is somethimg of relevance - I have located an old research report that compared the 'force of impact' of firefighting streams -

    at 12' 6" a 160 gpm flow from a combination straight stream out-performed the same flow from a 3/4" (both at 100psi NP) 86psi to 78 psi IMPACT FORCE.

    at 25' the 3/4" was superior by 2psi.

    at 50' the combination straight stream by 3psi IMPACT FORCE.

    Similar tests were undertaken comparing a 7/8th nozzle against a combo straight stream - overall the combo stream achieved slightly greater IMPACT FORCE.

    I guess that's as close as you can get to a 'penetration' assessment - if such a thing exists!

  16. #36
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    Originally posted by Batt18
    OK Here is somethimg of relevance - I have located an old research report that compared the 'force of impact' of firefighting streams -

    at 12' 6" a 160 gpm flow from a combination straight stream out-performed the same flow from a 3/4" (both at 100psi NP) 86psi to 78 psi IMPACT FORCE.

    at 25' the 3/4" was superior by 2psi.

    at 50' the combination straight stream by 3psi IMPACT FORCE.

    Similar tests were undertaken comparing a 7/8th nozzle against a combo straight stream - overall the combo stream achieved slightly greater IMPACT FORCE.

    I guess that's as close as you can get to a 'penetration' assessment - if such a thing exists!
    Thanks for this info Paul. Now I have some ammo when people on my department say we can't use smoothbores because "they cause too much damage"
    FTM-PTB-DTRT

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