1. #1
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    Default Fog nozzles have better penetration than smoothbores?

    I was reading a book today at work about fog nozzles, published by Fire Engineering/PennWell. In the book, it said that 100 PSI fog nozzles set on straight stream have better hitting power/penetration than a smoothbore nozzle (same GPM for both nozzles). I am curious to your opinions on this.

    Also, skimming through the book, I noticed that this biased book claimed that a smoothbore line with an 1 1/8 tip (266 GPM) had a nozzle reaction of 123 LB, compared to 126 LB on a 100 PSI fog nozzle while flowing 250 GPM. However, in reality, an 1 1/8 tip has only 99 LB reaction force, while the 1 ľ tip (328 GPM) has 123 LB reaction force.

    Itís pretty sad that a book biased on fog nozzles and bashing the smoothbores canít even get the numbers right. Anyway, I thought this might get some (non-flaming) conversation going.

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    Default My Favorite Subject!

    Eric:

    While it may be true that a combination nozzle set on straight stream, operating at 100psi may hit harder than the same GPM out of a smoothbore Nozzle at 50 psi, I can tell you from EXPERIENCE, that the line with the combo nozzle will be UNMANAGEABLE due to the extreme nozzle reaction force. And I do mean UNMANAGEABLE!

    What inevitably happens when those 100psi combo nozzles are used, is that due to the unmanagability of the line at those high flows, the nozzleman will either instinctively reduce the flow by gating back the nozzle, or frantically call for "less pressure" to be pumped on the line. The result: Less GPM flowed onto the fire, and/or much more exertion required by the nozzle team. Oh, yeah, and there goes your "harder hitting stream and greater penetration, too!"

    Yes, it's a shame that a biased book would also be printing erroneous information to support their conclusions.

    As far as this topic is concerned, research (both here and elsewhere) will show you that there are many supporters on both sides of the fence. This could leave you confused, unsure, and wishy-washy about nozzle selection. In fact, if you read other threads in these forums on this subject, you'll see that many people just say "Whatever works for you," or "It doesn't matter what nozzle you use." Those are indecisive and inconclusive remarks that still leave you searching for the truth.

    My challenge to you (and everyone else here) is to see through the B.S. When reading anything, ask yourself 2 things: First, is the author speaking from EXPERIENCE or just reguritating something they heard someone else say? (or worse...citing false info.) Second, what are the motives of the author? I remember reading articles in national publications touting the wonderful benefits of a particular nozzle, only later to notice the fine print, where I learned that the author was the V.P. of a well known nozzle manufacturer who wanted to push his crappy product.

    Me? I'm just a fireman who knows the truth (from experience)
    and wants to pass what I know along. I don't sell anything. I'm not looking to make any money off of anyone. I couldn't care less if nobody ever knows my name. I just like fighting fires and I know what I know. The truth is out there.

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    I believe TFT has a study on their website in which they measure the force at which fog and smooth bore streams hit.

    TFT (fog) streams hit "harder", meaning the speed at which they hit the fire is faster. Some say this would reduce the ability of the stream to evaporate before it hits the center of the fire. I say...

    Who freakin cares. I'm so sick of this argument that I'm ready to go into my next job with my thumb over the coupling.

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    Originally posted by Pride373
    I believe TFT has a study on their website in which they measure the force at which fog and smooth bore streams hit.

    TFT (fog) streams hit "harder", meaning the speed at which they hit the fire is faster. Some say this would reduce the ability of the stream to evaporate before it hits the center of the fire. I say...

    Who freakin cares. I'm so sick of this argument that I'm ready to go into my next job with my thumb over the coupling.
    Nobody is forcing you to participate in this conversation.

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    Default

    LMAO!

    Nice one Lt. Where do you find those things?
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    Perfect.

    Wait isn't that Seattle slew rising from the grave and getting beat by 2 men in bunkers one with a straight tip and the otherwith a fog????
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    Default

    if you want some bed time reading on this and other fire related things, try http://www.bfrl.nist.gov/fris/ they have all sorts, including downloadable modeling tools, one of which is titled FIRDEMND - Handheld Hosestream Suppression Model at http://www.bfrl.nist.gov/866/fmabbs.html#FIRDEMND .

    This computer simulator does the following..

    simulates the suppression of post flashover charring and non-charring solid-fuel fires in compartments using water sprays from portable hose-nozzle equipment used by the fire departments. The output of the Fire Demand Model (FDM) shows the extinguishing effects of water spray at various flow rates and droplet sizes. The calculations are based on a heat and mass balance accounting for gas and surface cooling, steam-induced smothering, water-spray induced air entrainment, direct extinguishment of the fire by water and the energy transport via inflow and outflow of heat and products of combustion. This model can be complicated, but it is very powerful.

    So if you want to run some test using real world and or manufacturers specs use it and see the results.
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    Default

    drkblram,

    I know it's not popular but I aree with you. The best damn nozzel I ever used. Damn I miss it.

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    I still say it depends on whether it has Red handles or Yellow handles, whether it is used by a Vollie or a Career, and how many lights you can attach to your helmet.
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    Talking Here's the test results.............

    After serious deliberations on the subject of "What Has Better Penetration, Smoothbore or Combination?" I decided (I'm a Chief, we decide to do things) to run some tests. Here's what we got:

    First we acquired a standard issue Chief Officer, (5'10", 200#, 61 years old, 45 years experience) armed with a 1.5 Handline equipped with a ball shutoff and a 1" Smoothbore tip and a Combination tip.

    We then located a suitable wall (0.5 Sheetrock on 2x4 studs)

    The line was charged to 100 psi, the 1" tip applied and the Chief hauled back and jammed the tip into the Sheetrock. Tip penetration was up to the pistol grip on the pipe. We then changed to the Combo tip and repeated the operation. The combo tip broke a wider area of sheetrock, but only went in about 1.75"

    CONCLUSION: The Smoothbore penetrated farther.

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    Default Re: Here's the test results.............

    Originally posted by hwoods
    After serious deliberations on the subject of "What Has Better Penetration, Smoothbore or Combination?" I decided (I'm a Chief, we decide to do things) to run some tests. Here's what we got:

    First we acquired a standard issue Chief Officer, (5'10", 200#, 61 years old, 45 years experience) armed with a 1.5 Handline equipped with a ball shutoff and a 1" Smoothbore tip and a Combination tip.

    We then located a suitable wall (0.5 Sheetrock on 2x4 studs)

    The line was charged to 100 psi, the 1" tip applied and the Chief hauled back and jammed the tip into the Sheetrock. Tip penetration was up to the pistol grip on the pipe. We then changed to the Combo tip and repeated the operation. The combo tip broke a wider area of sheetrock, but only went in about 1.75"

    CONCLUSION: The Smoothbore penetrated farther.

    Sounds like we have a winner!

    On a serious note though...1 inch tip on an 1 1/2 line? That's a lot of friction loss to get 50 lbs on the nozzle!

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    what about the Akron SabreJets..they are always good for discussion.
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    I believe that a straight tip gets best penetration while wearing 3/4 rubber boots(rolled bown of course ) A leather helmet w/Bourkes and no safety glasses or goggles, and a rubber coat.
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    Talking For The Record.........

    It was a Canvas Duck coat, Black, of course, and no reflective stripes. Friction loss was not considered because we were not flowing any water, simply seeing how far the nozzle would penetrate.......

    Oh BTW Artie, nice shot.....

    And... Akron Saberjets?? A hockey team, right??

    Stay Safe....
    Last edited by hwoods; 10-08-2003 at 12:15 AM.
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    Default

    Originally posted by ff7134
    I believe that a straight tip gets best penetration while wearing 3/4 rubber boots(rolled bown of course ) A leather helmet w/Bourkes and no safety glasses or goggles, and a rubber coat.
    First of all, penetration is the least of why you should be selecting a smooth bore nozzle. Read "little drops of water 50 years later" and then come back and talk to me...

    second - I hope you have fun wearing your silver reflective ARFF type gear with your TFT Brick...i mean nozzle...and your bright yellow fireknight helmet while breathing air standing outside of the room and contents fire that has now destroyed a perfectly good house



    Stay Safe

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    It's not so much WHAT you have in your hand, at the time.........its what you DO with it that really counts

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    I've been trying to tell women that for years.

    They don't buy it either!
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    hwoods......akron saberjets?????? I thought that was the name of a girls club in ohio!

    I can not believe this topic is here yet AGAIN!
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    Originally posted by captstanm1
    hwoods......akron saberjets?????? I thought that was the name of a girls club in ohio!

    I can not believe this topic is here yet AGAIN!
    Really, there were many other topics that asked about which nozzle has better penetration? This wasn't intended to be the standard fog vs. smoothbore topic. It was to get some discussion or evidence on which had better penetration. However, people like yourself filled this topic with a bunch of BS, instead of useful commentary. This topic didn't have to be the same old fog nozzle vs. smoothbore, but you people make it out to be because you cannot expand on your thinking. (With the exception of the guy that replied after I first posted this topic). This isn't intended to stir up more controversy, but the fact that you are insulting me because you don't take the time to answer the question or respond to the specific topic kind of ****es me off.

    The only reason why I posted this topic was based on what I read in a book, saying that a 100 psi fog nozzle has better penetration, and I was looking for feedback from people, because all I've heard in the past is that the smoothbore has better penetration.

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    Post OK, Let's Back Up A Minute...........

    Eric, The first Engine that I rode on (later, it became the first Engine that I drove) was a 1945 Mack with two attack lines. They were 2 one inch booster lines, 250 ft on each reel, with what we called "Navy nozzles". Later, we got stuff like 1.5 hose, combo nozzles, SCBA, and all kinds of neat stuff. Point is, I've been doing this since 1958, and have probably used almost all the common nozzles that were out there. This is a common thing here on the forums, someone comes along and starts a thread because they have a question, when they could have probably found what they were looking for in the archives. This subject has been beat to death many times over. We weren't picking on you directly, it was just another nozzle thing. Now, let me make one thing clear. IF we misunderstood your question, and you were asking something different, then let me be the first to apoligize. It did appear to me that you just asked the old question over again though. Stay Safe....
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    Default Re: OK, Let's Back Up A Minute...........

    Originally posted by hwoods
    Eric, The first Engine that I rode on (later, it became the first Engine that I drove) was a 1945 Mack with two attack lines. They were 2 one inch booster lines, 250 ft on each reel, with what we called "Navy nozzles". Later, we got stuff like 1.5 hose, combo nozzles, SCBA, and all kinds of neat stuff. Point is, I've been doing this since 1958, and have probably used almost all the common nozzles that were out there. This is a common thing here on the forums, someone comes along and starts a thread because they have a question, when they could have probably found what they were looking for in the archives. This subject has been beat to death many times over. We weren't picking on you directly, it was just another nozzle thing. Now, let me make one thing clear. IF we misunderstood your question, and you were asking something different, then let me be the first to apoligize. It did appear to me that you just asked the old question over again though. Stay Safe....
    This topic wasn't intended to be "What is better, fog nozzles or smoothbores" or "Which do you prefer?" It was simply asking, does a fog nozzle really have better penetration than a smoothbore, as claims a fog nozzle book I read. I was always under the impression that the soild stream had more penetration, so I was just looking for some input on the matter. I understand if you do not wish to answer the question, or simply do not know the answer (or care for that matter.)

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    Erics99 - I agree with HWoods in all that he says. However, you also deserve an answer to your post - if they were one! If you search the archives there have been many debates on this very topic. In the end the question cannot be fairly addressed as direct comparison is irrelavent. I have seen many authors attempt to answer this through articles and books - don't always believe what you read!

    The truth is (unbiased answer) that smooth-bores operate at lower nozzle pressures to combination (fog/straight-stream) nozzles and therefore any direct comparison is not logical. If you have a straight-stream (combination) nozzle flowing XYZ at 100psi NP then it will have greater impact (penetration) than a nozzle flowing XYZ at 50psi NP.

    What is 'penetration' anyway? 'Reach (delivery)', 'flow' and 'handling' are the most important aspects of a straight-stream when suppressing fire using a direct attack.

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    erics99... I also agree with hwoods and think I may have used the same nozzle at some time in my career...(oldtimers disease....)

    Also...I was not busting on you for starting the topic. I just think we have rehashed this, beat it, rode it, charged it, argued it, debated it.....and so on. There is not one specific answer to your question.

    To answer your question I will say that I do believe that there are some fog nozzles made by certain manufacturers that when in the low pressure or "emergency" setting will deliver a stream of water that is equivalent to a 15/16" SB nozzle in the same or better configuration with the same or better reach.

    The answer to you question will vary widely with the nozzle you are using, the size of the attack line (1.5", 1.75", 2") and the pressure being pumped.......and on and on....

    So I guess, I am saying that you will find many many opinions on what is the better configuration.
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