1. #1
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    Question How many firefighters does it take.....

    Does anyone have a calculation that is used to figure how many firefighters and/or fire stations are required for a given population? There's a book out there that covers this, but in my current location, I do not have access to it. The only calculation setup I have now is for military bases, which is unrealistic for this situation.

    Thanks in advance.

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    Awwww.... I thought this was a joke
    A'int No Rocket Scientist's in The Firehall

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    The only thing like that I've ever seen was in a really old fire-college textbook that used to be on the bookshelf of a station I worked at a few years ago...

    It was the textbook for something like a "Fire Service Management" course and had been published in the 60's. The numbers they recommended were real "fifties-ish" and it kind of made me laugh. I think it was something like 6 firefighters plus one officer per Engine Co. and 7 firefighters and one officer per Truck in a commercial/industrial district. For a primarily residential district, it allowed for dropping those numbers of firefighters per company by one.

    I guess those were "the good ol' days" when our predecessors did this job for 72 or 96 hours per week for the equivalent of minimum wage... How else would you have paid for those numbers?
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    Default Stations Requirements per capita

    Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe the NFPA/ISO standard is to have 1 Fire station for every 5-10 square miles or 1 fire station per 10,000 residents. Your response time should be under 5 or 6 minutes so that would mean that the call would be relatively close to a station. I also believe it is NFPA 1710 or 1910 one that reccomends there be 4 firefighters on the first due and subsequent companies responding to a call. I do not think there is a SET POLICY or calculation on number of firefighters. I am pretty certain about the station locations though.

    Hope this helps!

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    There's several models for fire department staffing.

    Dang it, it's too early on a Sunday morning...I had the math all done and it doesn't add up!

    Get back to you later...

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    When we were doing our contract back in the late 90's we used a book put out by the U.S. conference of Mayors and City Managers that had a formula. If I recall correctly it was 2.5 firefighters per 1000 of population ,but I believe that that number has been reduce to 2.0 per thousand. If I find the book I will post its title here.
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    Originally posted by Smoke20286
    Awwww.... I thought this was a joke
    How many firefighters does it take change a light bulb?


    ONE........

    ......Just as long as the firefighter closely follows the established perimeters as outlined by the department's operational guidelines, which are based on recommendations from both municipal, state/provincial, and federal guidelines concerning the handling of the bulb and light socket. Also, the firefighter must be sure to take into account the environmental impacts of replacing the light bulb as advised by a special joint committee made up of local and national industry leaders and environmental activist groups.

    Prior to changing the bulb, the firefighter must undergo training in order to meet the guidelines for handling a burnt out light bulb, as outlined by:
    The Workers Compensation Board (WCB)
    The National Fire Protection Agency (NFPA)
    The Occupational Safety & Health Association (OSHA)
    The National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health (NIOSH)

    Once the required training has been completed a panel of senior officers may need to be established to decided which firefighter should undertaking the changing of the light bulb. The panel will conduct written and oral interviews, as well as a physical and psychological evaluation to determine which firefighter should be recommended to the Fire Chief. Once a recommendation is made, the Fire Chief will review the panal's desicion and take the recommendation to the city or municipal council for approval.

    Once the firefighter has changed the light bulb, he or she will undergo a weeklong mandatory CISD treatment to evaluate any psychological, emotional, or physical damage incurred by the firefighter as a result of changing the bulb. Once the CISD evaluation is completed, the firefighter will return to "active light duty" for 90 days.

    .... gotta love the new, improved, politically correct fire department jokes....

    "No one ever called the Fire Department for doing something smart..."

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    LOL @ FF26

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    I seem to remember this from a sub division discussion.

    New sub divisions are constandtly poping up in MT. There is a reg that requires that no new construction can occur more then 5 miles (not sure if it is road or straight line) from a fire station.

    So they have to keep the fire protectoin on par with the new construction.

    As far as fire fighters per population, not sure. There are times in rural MT wher the number of fire fighers can get to be 10 times the number of permanent residents. Wildfire season tends to bring in armys of yellow and green.
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    Originally posted by firefighter26


    How many firefighters does it take change a light bulb?


    ONE........

    ......Just as long as the firefighter closely follows the established perimeters as outlined by the department's operational guidelines,

    Once the firefighter has changed the light bulb, he or she will undergo a weeklong mandatory CISD treatment to evaluate any psychological,


    Sorry to break it to ya, but you never established command. There will have to be a formal inquiry!


    Seriously though, the "Green Book" a.k.a. "Managing Fire Services" was/is published by the ICMA (International City Managment Association, or words to that effect). I have seen recent editions distributed by NFPA.
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    I know there has been recommended levels but I've never heard of any hard fast rule. Detroits numbers follow.

    21,511 residents per station
    13,314 residents per company.
    1.28 Firefighters per 1,000 population (as staffing stands now)

    So much for the conference of Mayors/NFPA and ISO, if what was stated above is even close to being true.

    Our Mayor wants to cut the department to levels that would bring these numbers.

    23,125 residents per station
    14,230 residents per company
    1.08 Firefighters per 1,000 population

    Now there's progress for ya!
    Last edited by FireLt1951; 10-20-2003 at 06:08 PM.

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    Originally posted by FireLt1951
    I know there has been recommended levels but I've never heard of any hard fast rule. Detroits numbers follow.

    21,511 residents per station
    13,314 residents per company.
    1.28 Firefighters per 1,000 population (as staffing stands now)

    So much for the conference of Mayors/NFPA and ISO, if what was stated above is even close to being true.

    Our Mayor wants to cut the department to levels that would bring these numbers.

    23,125 residents per station
    14,230 residents per company
    1.08 Firefighters per 1,000 population

    Now there's progress for ya!
    Lou, we have had the same progress...

    1985
    20,000 population
    1.9 firefighters per 1000

    2003
    18,000 population
    1.7 firefighters per 1000

    They could care less
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    If you are figuring the milage from the station it is 5 road miles from the station with at least one truck in it. That is according to ISO.

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    Default Re: Stations Requirements per capita

    Originally posted by LRFireE135
    Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe the NFPA/ISO standard is to have...
    I spent a fair amount of time looking through the NFPA codes last year looking for a "standard 1st alarm" (for a post in these forums) and never found anything which said "You will have X responding units..." but did find a lot of "shall respond with an appropriate response based on preplanning." Basically, my understanding of NFPA is it gives you a lot of rope to hang yourself but you need to figure out how to properly tie the knots so to speak. I imagine that ISO must have a set formula for determining your rating, not sure where you'd find it.
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    You can find the ISO formula in the Fire Suppression Rating Schedule published by (you guessed it) ISO.

    For maximum credit (ISO doesn't REQUIRE anything) I believe the minimum response on a first alarm to a structure is two engines and a ladder (or service company if a ladder is not required).

    I'm a little rusty here, but I seem to remember that you can get credit for up to 12 FF responding with each apparatus - we're assuming here that they don't necessarily arrive on the apparatus. Volunteers and off-duty personnel count as one third of a firefighter for this calculation.

    Any ISO gurus out there, please feel free to correct me, I don't deal with this sort of thing very often.
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    Default Oh Noooooooo!

    Dear god, please don't ask for an "ISO guru!"

    "He" might rear his ugly head again!!!

    Fire service survival tips:
    1) Cook at 350...
    2) Pump at 150...
    3) When in doubt, isolate and deny entry...
    4) When in trouble, claim lack of adult supervision.

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    Forgive my ignorance, but could I get a little background on that?
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    Read this post and all will be explained.

    http://cms.firehouse.com/forums2/sho...threadid=51126

    "He" used to make a living writing articles for fire magazines and consulting for fire departments looking to up their ISO rating. "He" disappears from here for months at a time, then re-appears under a new username with a rant like the one in this post.

    Once you've read a few of "his" rants it's easy to recognize "him," so the changing of "his" username doesn't hide "his" identity for very long. "His" behavior is really similar to someone with a serious mental illness who periodically stops taking their meds... But I'm NOT saying that's the case with "him." Although...

    And we really don't want "him" coming around anymore, so please, if you need an ISO expert, call ISO. Throwing up a flag for one here is just asking for trouble!
    Fire service survival tips:
    1) Cook at 350...
    2) Pump at 150...
    3) When in doubt, isolate and deny entry...
    4) When in trouble, claim lack of adult supervision.

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    Default "I see!" said the blind man.

    Got it, loud and clear.

    Mum's the word. (And I'll be more careful to choose mine in the future.)

    Thanks for the heads-up.
    ullrichk
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    Default How many firefighters needed?

    I remember learning all this information over the years in my fire science classes and Ullrichk you nailed it with the "green book." It says that for cities with a pop. of 250,000 or more it ranges from 0.5 to 2.7 ff per thousand with a median of 1.0 to 1.5. If passing this along to the city officials good luck.

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    Originally posted by ullrichk
    I'm a little rusty here, but I seem to remember that you can get credit for up to 12 FF responding with each apparatus - we're assuming here that they don't necessarily arrive on the apparatus. Volunteers and off-duty personnel count as one third of a firefighter for this calculation.
    I've been told that ISO wants two engines and a service/truck company on the first alarm with 12 firefighters and one incident commander. According to the information I've been given, on-duty firefighters count as one firefighter; firefighters responding from elsewhere count as 1/3 of a firefighter if there is a sign-in sheet and 1/6 of a firefighter without a sign-in.

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    Oakland, California circa 1978 - population 350,000
    23 Fire Stations, 24 Engines, 16 hose wagons, 8 Trucks, 1 Squad
    1 Rescue, 1 Fire Boat

    5 Men per Engine Co, 6 Men Per Truck, 4 Men on squad
    ~35,000 calls a year - 3500+ working fires a year


    Oakland circa 2002 - 410,000 people
    26 stations, 25 Engine Co, 7 Trucks, 1 Rescue, 1 Fire Boat
    4 men and women per engine, 4 or 5 on trucks
    75,000 calls - 1100 working fires


    2003 - F##ing Mayor and Fire Chief
    25 Stations, 23 Engine Co, 6 Trucks, 1 Rescue, NO FIREBOAT

    and more cuts coming.....

    wish the citizens cared more, because the crime is so bad this year, all of the money is going to the Police Department and we are taking all of the cuts.

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    Thanks for the info. The answer I was looking for was the "green book" answer. I don't have one of those books here, and the Army doesn't have appropriate reference either. As far as ISO, or staffing, that's a wash here. A city of 100,000 is lucky to have 1 or 2 fire apparatus. Also, we're dealing with a country that really doesn't give a damn about fire protection issues. Quite frankly, what were are doing with this project is comparable to putting a band-aid on a sucking chest wound. But, we will always try to do it right, and the politicians or other similar types will change it to meet thier desires.

    Thanks for the information. very appreciated.

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