1. #276
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    Just love to read article people write with aboslutely no idea of what they are talking about this person is the evil M word

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    Originally posted by lieutleroy140
    OK, here it is..... Iv'e been following this thread like everyone else for 19 or so pages, and it's time for me to ring in. Gonz, I thought you people up in Mass. called heros "spuckies". Around here we call them grinders, which everyone knows is what they are supposed to be called, by the way. Now, say goodnight, Gracie. "Good night, Gracie!" I'm here all week, tip your servers and try the veal.
    Never heard of "spuckies"... we call them grinders, subs and heroes!

    Good night Gracie, I left a 20% tip and the veal was excellent!
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
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    While I was going stay out of this, and just hopefully let it die, I wanted to make 3 points.

    1) this guy is entitled to his opinion. the US constitutions allows freedom of speech. and anyone that wants to crucify this guy for having an opinion should be ashamed of themselves. my objection to this article is that he took many facts, and distorted them and put a spin on them that made us look bad. but not just that he had this opinion, but rather that what he states are facts (which in reality, aren't quite as accurate at the conclusions he draws from them) can cause other people to lose respect for what we do.

    2) "New York firefighters, admittedly deep in grief over lost co-workers, exacerbated the challenge of body recovery operations after 9/11 by insisting on elaborate removal procedures for each firefighter uncovered, an insult to others who died there. " I know, others have already commented on this. but I want to reiterate it. when 9/11 happened, 343 FDNY FFs left their "cushy jobs" of having to "give tours to school kids, barbecue hamburgers, wash fire engines, sleep" and never returned. and yes, I consider those men heroes for giving their lives to save others. and yes, as many of the FDNY guys have stated, this was not only dones for FFs, but for civilians too. and his comment about funerals just being propoganda is just absurd. it's called respect for those who gave their lives in the service of others.

    3) "Firefighters may have the best work schedule in the United States—24 hours on, 48 hours off." and it still works out to an average of 40+ hours a week, just like many other jobs...

    this guy is entitled to his opinion. but before he publishes it as a fact, he might want to do a little more research. and most of us don't call ourselves heroes, but that's what the public thinks.

    oh, and in case anyone was interested, here is a dictionary defintion according to the American heritage dictionary for the word hero:
    "A person noted for feats of courage or nobility of purpose, especially one who has risked or sacrificed his or her life"
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    (sigh). It was almost over.

    this guy is entitled to his opinion. but before he publishes it as a fact, he might want to do a little more research. and most of us don't call ourselves heroes, but that's what the public thinks.
    He NEVER published it as a fact. He published it as his opinion.

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    Arrow And now...more from Mr. Gantenbein

    Oh darn....just when this thread was cooling down..........

    SEATTLE (AP) - The federal government wastes billions of dollars
    a year fighting some forest fires, Douglas Gantenbein writes in "A
    Season of Fire: Four Months on the Firelines of America's
    Forests."
    Gantenbein, a journalist who teaches nonfiction writing at the
    University of Washington, left Seattle for the summer of 2001 to
    chase wildfires across the West. And there were plenty, including
    the Thirtymile fire in Washington that killed four firefighters.
    The descriptions of the Thirtymile and other fires Gantenbein
    visits are dramatic - written with the details of someone who has
    felt the heat, walked through ash and breathed smoke. Then he gets
    behind the breaking news to look at the economics of firefighting.
    "It could be argued that America spends $1 billion or more on
    fires each year and gets essentially nothing," he writes.
    Some fires are beneficial to certain habitats. Forests
    eventually recover from even damaging fires, as Yellowstone has
    come back from the 1988 fires. And it is an irony of firefighting
    that jumping on brush-clearing fires only leads to a buildup of
    fuel that makes worse fires inevitable.
    Yet, Forest Service careers are made managing fires, and
    firefighting itself has become a growth industry. Thousands of
    people depend on fires for summer jobs. Gantenbein shows an
    appreciation for their expertise and effort; it's not their fault
    they're better at controlling fires than spending.
    A big fire creates its own economy, fueled by government
    managers with blank checks, Gantenbein writes. Private contractors
    earn their living providing helicopters, tanker planes or food and
    laundry services. Cities nearing ghost town status revive with the
    arrival of a small army of firefighters, buying food, personal
    items and "I was at the big fire" T-shirts.
    Gantenbein acknowledges the romance of firefighting: the heroes
    who protect property and the environment, the fellowship among
    people who work hard together, the opportunity for women to prove
    themselves, the Smokey Bear instinct to stomp out all fires, and
    the slay-the-dragon battle against fire as if at war.
    It's an enterprise that burns money.
    Gantenbein lists an Oregon blaze as the 2001 poster fire for
    what he calls the "lunacy" shown at times by fire managers.
    "It's the Craggie Fire, started Sept. 17 when lightning hits
    the dried trunk of a long-dead tree in a remote section of Oregon's
    Kalmiopsis Wilderness, in the southwest corner of the state. As
    fires, go it's an innocuous as they get. It burns in a wilderness
    area, miles from the nearest home, in forest that likely will
    benefit from a little fire-induced fall cleanup," he writes.
    "No matter. The Craggie Fire warrants a full-scale firefighting
    assault. By Sept. 22, 395 people and an incident command team are
    assigned to it, along with seven heavy helicopters. The helos do
    their thing, dropping buckets of water, making a lot of noise, and
    racking up one hellacious bill. The little Craggie Fire, which
    never gets beyond 279 acres - it's barely 12 football fields across
    - nonetheless costs $2.2 million to fight. At $7,899 per acre, the
    Craggie Fire earns the distinction of being the most expensive
    fire, on a per-acre basis, of the summer - its per-acre bill
    totaling seven times the nation average of $1,164 per acre."
    Any fire that tops 10,000 acres costs about $1 million a day, he
    writes.
    Some fires, such as the Southern California blazes that consumed
    homes this year have to be fought aggressively, Gantenbein would
    agree.
    But he argues that for many others, the United States needs a
    new policy without the idyllic perceptions of forest, heroic
    conceptions of firefighters, the instinctive aversion to fire, the
    influence of special interests in Congress, and the inertia of
    government bureaucracies.
    "In some manner, a sense of proportion must be restored to
    firefighting," he writes. "That can never be accomplished in the
    heat of the moment. The only way to achieve that goal is to force
    firefighting agencies to adhere to some semblance of an actual
    budget."
    (Copyright 2003 by The Associated Press. All Rights Reserved.)
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    First of all, Ed; BABY! You've topped 5000 posts, man. Truly a feat fit for recognition. You just keep building a bigger/better bank of knowledge. Congratulations and thank you for your efforts on behalf of firefighters everywhere.
    Now, I might get skewered for what I am about to say (Ed, you got my back, right?), but I am in the middle of reading Doug Gantenbein's book, A Season of Fire.
    It is a very interesting book for a guy who fought structural fires and small vegetation fires. I had no idea of the ecosystem and how NOT having fires in the forests can actually be a BAD thing.
    Granted, I have not read other works that addresses wildland tactics, but he was there; he worked, he interviewed, he rode with and fought with those on the fire lines, so I have to believe that it is an accurate piece. It IS NOT VOID of his oft-stated personal observations and opinions. He talked with people right in the US Forest Service that had some very strong DISSENTING opinions about tactics employed and money spent. I guess you could say he is the messenger that is getting shot.
    And when everyone else is being held to risk/benefit analysis, it makes you wonder that so much is spent where there is no risk to life or property.
    Before you get the tar out, I am environmental conscious. I love the outdoors. I like to see the furry creatures in the forests and the fish in the streams. But I don't like losing firefighters to save it. Just like I don't like losing firefighters to structures. We can grow more trees, we can re-stock the lakes and streams, but you never and I mean never replace that young lad who was looking for money for college, signed on for the summer and lost their life as a result.
    That's what I am getting from his book, and on that, I absolutely agree with him.
    Oh and he challenges the use of the word "hero" in his book too. He raises an interesting point in that regard. He talks about the use of purple ribbons at memorials instead of yellow.
    I hope to finish the book this week. Anyone else want to read it?
    CR
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    Naw, I dont need to read the book, I live it each summer.

    I have worked for the USFS and BLM on helitack and engine crews in Montana, and I currently volunteer with a rural MT department covering 740 square miles. It is true, the Feds can waste more money on fire then I ever even dreamed of. It is truely mind blowing the money that just goes up in smoke, no pun intended.

    I truely believe that if they pumped even 25% of that billion dollars spent on wildfire into the rural volunteer fire deartments they could get a much higher level of fire protection. But, it is true, it is now a big buisness with its own momentum, it needs to feed.

    Then we get to the part on how screwed up the fuel loads are getting. We dont have small fires anymore because we have a 100 or so years of fuel build up.

    IIRC each arcre of MT land used to be burnt over by wildfire on the average of every 5 years. This kept the trees farther apart, the pine needles and cones cleaned up, and there was actualy grass growing in between the trees. Now we have a gigantic pile of fuel, the fires burn way to hot and kill the fire resistant pine trees that didnt have a problem with fire until fire fighting came to the west.

    What we need is more logging. The forest were never this dense with trees until fire suppression came along. We need to thin them out and then do prescribed burns to get the underlying fuel load down.

    Funny thing is, the privately owned lands in MT do not have these problems. They are managed much better then the fed lands. It is partly the environmentalist own doing that the forests are in such bad shape, they fight every logging and management effort the USFS atempts.

    On private lands the trees are kept thinned, the pastures and prairie are grazed down to an appropriate level (exception is Conservation Reserve Program grass lands, major fuel there). The fuel loads are not critical. Also, there is insentive to get the fires out because that is peoples lively hood that is burning. Stands of trees represent a familys income from logging, a severe prairie fire can destroy an entire family farm and has put people out of buiseness. It is peoples lives and livelyhood burning on private land.

    There is not the same attitude on the Fed crews, I know first hand, I used to work them while going to college. There very little concern for what happens on fed land, or realy on private land. I have lost count the number of times the Feds have burned out an entire ranch because they wanted to backfire in lighter fuels. That realy ****es off the locals, very very much.

    We have between 75-150 wildfire starts each summer in my Vol fire district (740 square miles). We hit them with every thing we have, 11 high quality brush trucks, 3 tenders, and 30 members. It takes extream circumstances for us to lose a fire. Extream winds or multiple starts (IIRC our record is around 20 fire starts from a single thunder storm in less then 2 hours) can overwhelm us. Our yearly budget is around 50-60 thousand, supplemented with grants when we can get them.

    Now take into acount or nearest federal neibors. They are about 50 miles south and cover a portion of national forest, approx 400 square miles, approx 50-100 starts a year. They have a single type 6 engine, cost about 100,000 thousand, 5 crew members, cost of 20$ per hour at a fire, fire station, cost 50 thousand. Their nearest Fed back up is and huor for second Type 6 due, 2.5 hours for another type 6 and 2 heavies. They have a lot of fires get away from them, includeing what turned out to be the largest wildfire in MT in 2002 (we did structure protection for the county they are in under our MOU, no pay, but we didnt get onto Gov land, we dont work well with them). We sometimes head down to help out the county, but the Feds realy dont like to see us show up, we dont play by their rules and we cut down on a lot of overtime hours for them. We have about 15 members of our department that have worked with the Fed crews either on engine crews, helitak, even hand crews. We all are well trained and the majority of us could pass the pack test if so inclined. We dont want to, we want no red cards, we want nothing to do with the feds. This is a luxury for us, we have very little federal or state land in our county, we are mostly private. We can make our own rules and see no need to play the Feds game, especialy when they have it so screwed up.

    Their yearly budget (just a rough estimate) for this single fire station is around 150,000 for wadges (5 career FFs at 30 grand a year), 10,000 for their Type 6 (they run them for 6 years), 10,000 more for gear, rations, fuel, and maybe 5000 for station power, fuel, and maintenance.

    So, roughly 175,000 a year to operate a single type 6 brush truck covering about 400 square miles. They do no provide mutual aid to neiborhing counties, they only repsond to private fires if they threaten state or federal land. They close the fire station down and move all of the crew and the engine to the BLM district office where they train and polish things all winter long.



    We operate 2 structure engines, 3 water tenders, 1 CAFS Wildland heavy (a BLM surplus incidently), 10 type 6 brush trucks, and a command unit. We can muster 35 trained and experienced fire fighters withing 15 minutes, first guys in are un under 30 seconds (Cheif and Assistant cheif live across the street for the Hall, 10 mor guys are within 3 blocks).

    We apply for fire grants all the time, this year it has added up to about 100,000, a lot of it for safety gear. We have an annual operating budget of about 60,000, we raise about 5 thousand a year from fundraisers and donations.

    So, roughly 165,000 a year to operate 10 type 6 brush trucks, 1 type 3 brush truck, 2 structure engines, 3 water tenders, and one IC bronco which was donated by an oil company. This serves 740 square miles primary coverage area, and no BS, approximate 8000 square miles of mutual aid area. 7 neiborhing counties in 2 states have MOUs with us, as well as the other fire district in our county which is 900 square miles. We also protect a significant oil production area which cover ours and a adjacent county.

    If that doesnt reflect the cost efectiveness of the Federal fire service then I dont know what does...

    Their yearly budget is comparable for the single fire station to the south of us.

    They have approximately 10% of the fire protection in their coverage area as we have in ours.

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    Originally posted by ChiefReason
    I had no idea of the ecosystem and how NOT having fires in the forests can actually be a BAD thing.
    CR
    Even in the hardwood forests of northern New Jersey...the amount of duff, litter, slash and snags is approaching levels in which, given the proper conditions, wildfires of historic proportions could take place. We could easily see a firestorm of the same fury which ravaged southern California. All that is needed would be a period of drought, some gusty winds and low humidity. Urban/wildland interface is a REAL problem in my area....and homes would be lost.

    WHY? Any fires which have started in these areas...have been controlled and extinguished immediately. There has been no reduction of fuels in 40-45 years. We are creating the same prescription for disaster that the western states face. Add to that...dead oaks from previous Gypsy Moth infestations and drought stress.

    As for any regular prescribed burning to reduce the hazards....forget about it. We just don't have the funds to conduct Rx burns on the scale needed. The environmentalists would have a field day. Smoke from any extensive Rx burn would surely end up in residential areas. It's a "Catch 22" situation. We're darned if we do...and darned if we don't.
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    In my area the DNR has a large amount of land, and every spring they do prescribed burns. As a result, we haven't had to respond to any wildfires in the DNR in over 4 years. They do a good job of maintaining it.
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    Default IACOJ Exclusive!

    Fellow crusties:
    You can go to the IACOJ website and read the exclusive interview with Doug Gantenbein, the author of the article, "Smoke and Mirrors: Stop Calling Firefighters Heroes"!
    CR
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    Thumbs up

    A Tip of the Leather for our very own Chief Reason for a job well done!
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

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    ChiefReason wrote
    Fellow crusties:
    You can go to the IACOJ website and read the exclusive interview with Doug Gantenbein, the author of the article, "Smoke and Mirrors: Stop Calling Firefighters Heroes"!
    CR

    Cellblock asks:
    Whats the URL? Please post the link for us slow types.

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    Cellblock.

    IACOJ website = http://www.iacoj.com Kinda logical really.

    Chief Reason. Art, that is excellent. Thanks for showing us the other side in a rational manner.

    And it should spark further debate, if it doesn't something is sadly wrong.
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    was hesiatnat to read and as I said last Sunday I would only read because of the interviewer. Seems a little different to listen to him over there...............still gotta go with a goof .......
    IACOJ both divisions and PROUD OF IT !
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    I'm sorry, I haven't been paying much attention for the last 3 hours.....what were we discussing?
    "but I guarentee you I will FF your arse off" from>
    http://www.firehouse.com/forums/show...60#post1137060post 115

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    Maybe it's me...

    I registered on the site, but I can't find the article. Can somebody help?

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    George,

    Click the "content" link on the upper left portion of the home page. CR's interview is the first item listed. Welcome aboard.

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    George, if you just registered you may have to wait until your account has been activated before you can access some areas of the site.
    To the world you might be one person, but to one person you just might be the world.

    IACOJ-WOT proud

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    Anyone else having problems accessing the website?
    The best way to take advantage of the many fine features of the site is to apply for membership.
    Of course, that would include many good articles written by some of the best and brightest of the fire service.
    Remember; you can only read the interview at www.iacoj.com.;)
    CR
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    Thumbs up Kudos to you Art

    That was quite a coup.... I still think he's wrong.

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    i'm also having problems. i registered for the site, but my accout hasn't been activated yet. any idea how long it takes to get that done?
    If my basic HazMat training has taught me nothing else, it's that if you see a glowing green monkey running away from something, follow that monkey!

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    Default this doesnt go here ...........let me Dr....

    BLSboy wrote:

    quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    OK Did I make someone mad??
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    You just did!
    Chief: Rule #1 is: if there is a problem or you have a question that is problematic, we keep it internal. If you had questions about your application, you should have contacted the membership, re-applied; something along those lines.
    You're right on one thing: we don't keep applicants swinging in the lurch. You are entitled to know the status of your app.
    Let me say this:
    If your app was in somewhere around the last of October when we were having server problems, it may explain why nothing was done with it. It was lost.
    My suggestion is that you re-submit. If you have any questions on THAT application, i.e. status, please contact me at rockysroom@winco.net.
    CR

    here you go Dr ............
    IACOJ both divisions and PROUD OF IT !
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    ATTENTION ALL SHOPPERS: Will the dead horse please report to the forums.(thanks Motown)
    RAY WAS HERE 08/28/05
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    I'm sorry, I haven't been paying much attention for the last 3 hours.....what were we discussing?
    "but I guarentee you I will FF your arse off" from>
    http://www.firehouse.com/forums/show...60#post1137060post 115

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