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  1. #21
    Temporarily/No Longer Active July36's Avatar
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    I just got done posting my reply on this matter over there on those MSN forums and i signed up for the forums there for this one purpose.
    Heres my reply over there:


    Subject: "Smoke and Mirrors"
    From: femalechief44
    Date: Nov 1 2003 9:48PM

    "Apparently this guy hasnt been around the Fire Service that long,otherwise he would not have made some of the statements he made in his article and his 4 months or 4 years(whatever it was) is only a very small stint compared to those of us thats been in the services for many years.I think he had better do a bit more research on the fire services,visit more fire stations and interview more fire service personnell before he makes many more statements like the ones he has made in his article.
    Furthermore,if he DID more research,he would see that we indeed are ALOT more busier than he realizes and that many of us do not have the time for the "extra" stuff that he mentions.We do this job simply becuase many of us WANT to...or that we feel it is our duty to do so.Ill bet once he really happened to NEED us for some kind of an incident,ill bet hed change his attitude towards whether we are "heroes" or not.We do not actually see ourselves as "heroes"...but we see ourselves doing a job,a duty and a service...to the public...to see to the welfare of our "fellow citizens".Once he realizes this,maybe he will forget the "stereotyping"."


    I also emailed him..as well as Sports Illustrated letting them know what a BIG mistake they made putting down the only "help" that may be there for them someday...and to remember the words about us that is in that article when hes looking us in the faces and crying for help....and he tends to forget those of us that are on the front lines of these wildland fires that just MAY be protecting his home...and/or life.

    I told SI to either keep him "on-subject" or US firefighters would boycott thier magazine. LOL

    Donna C
    Fire Chief
    Bridge Canyon VFD
    http://cms.firehouse.com/dept/SeligmanAZ


  2. #22
    Forum Member Dave1105's Avatar
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    As I read through this thread I was gearing myself up to write a long-winded response... until I came across what Mongoose wrote. I couldn't sum up my feelings towards that article any better, two thumbs up mongoose.

    Don't get me wrong, I (like mongoose) don't agree with the inflamitory tone in which the article is written.... but it does speak a lot of home truths.

    To those of you who responded to this thread with just a "screw you" attitude, I say re-read it and actually think about how you behave and how the public might percieve you.

  3. #23
    Forum Member 33motor's Avatar
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    Well, one thing about living in this country is ones freedom of speech. Although I believe his comments are totally off the wall, and at times downright degrading... he has a right to say what he wants. But, out of all of his idiotic ramblings, none offended me worse than the following...

    New York firefighters, admittedly deep in grief over lost co-workers, exacerbated the challenge of body recovery operations after 9/11 by insisting on elaborate removal procedures for each firefighter uncovered, an insult to others who died there.
    I belive many of those brothers climbed those stairs knowing that either the building would probably collapse... or that another plane would hit... either way, I feel that many knew they would probably not return from that job... They all deserve more respect than any of us are able to possibly bestow upon them.

    The "cushy job" statment was a slap in the face as well. I can tell you one thing... there's NOTHING cushy about pulling up and finding an intersection full of dead children... scattered along the asphalt. At times like that I even have to ask myself why I have placed myself in a situation where I have to deal with that. But, when I cradle that lifeless little body, knowing there's nothing I can do for him/her, and place them in an ambulance... or off to the side on some grass somewhere... I remember that I'm glad that there's someone like me who cares enough to show them the same respect I would want shown to a member of my family.

    When my LT. was still in EMS there was more than once where he phoned dispatch or an EMS LT. and told them he was going home.. period, find someone to come in.. He didn't do it so he could go to his second job... he did it because he had seen one too many children die that shift... and when he went home it was to sit alone in the dark holding his sleeping baby.

    The shear contempt that this article was written with makes me sick. It sounds to me like this "looser" has formed his opinions by watching hollywood action films. As for his comments about how busy a firehouse really is.. we felt we had a slow shift being as it was Halloween last night... 2 fires and 1 medical run on the engine, 3 runs on the truck, and 5 on the squad... I could not even tell you how many hours the ambulance was gone (as usual for them).
    http://www.sanantoniofire.org

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  4. #24
    Temporarily/No Longer Active July36's Avatar
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    I know the feeling 33MOTOR...had one of those kid death incidents just this past July 4th.Lost 3 kids under 12 on that rollover and it will be forever in my mind about having to "body bag" those kids.

    Donna C
    Fire Chief
    Bridge Canyon VFD
    http://cms.firehouse.com/dept/SeligmanAZ

  5. #25
    Forum Member 33motor's Avatar
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    From what I read about this guy it seems that he spent a short time with a wildland crew out west, doing research for a book he wrote aboute wildfires. So, I guess that makes him an authority on ALL dept's country wide. I'm sure most of his time on the fire line was spent sitting in the cab of a brush truck, munching on a twinkie.... spitting little chunks of filling and bread out of his mouth every time an ember even came close to landing near the truck.

    And how about his comment that makes one believe that all dept's have a calander! What??? Oh yeah, I'm in one every year... yeah right! He's probably just ticked that they turned down his offer to be a fluffer.
    http://www.sanantoniofire.org

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  6. #26
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    Angry Freedom of Speech Doesn't Cover Stupidity

    Freedom of Speech shall only go as far as this MUTT'S rope shall hang!

    Freedom of Speech doesn't cover LIBEL!!!

    WHAT A MUTT!!! MAN AM I FUMING!!!

    I WROTE HIM ONE HELLUVA NASTY LETTER, MOST LIKELY NOT HIS FIRST FROM ONE OF US, WHICH I POSTED ON THE OTHER THREAD ON THIS TOPIC (bashing the brotherhood)!!!

    Anyone have access to a MUTT HUNTER?

    WHERE'S CAPTAIN GONZO & THE IACOJ WHEN YA REALLY NEED EM?!?!

    (Maybe I just didn't read up far enough...)

    Anyway...Stay Safe Brothers & Sisters!!!
    LREngine135
    Firefighter/EMT-B


    All things I say...while not always making sense are ALWAYS my opinion and only mine. They do not reflect the opinions of any department of which I am a member.

  7. #27
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    Originally posted by Mongoose772
    Yes, his prose is inflammatory, but there is a significant amount of truth in what he writes.
    Well-formed post, Mongoose.
    That perhaps deserved to be said
    BUT spouting facts alone, doesn't mean it naturally supports the argument. Thats the oldest jounalistic trick in the book. (I summize you recognize that)

    Is 'hero' overused? oh ya, we all seem to agree.

    But his attacking the profession to correct the masses (and MEDIA's) overuse of 'hero'? to what end?

    Where does one start..
    Rediculous how he comdemes us as adrenelin junkies, from someone who makes his living catering to slobs who sit on the couch all weekend watching sport's 'adrenelin junkies' and overpaid premadonnas.

    He confuses motivation, brotherhood and desire to get home in one piece as misguided junkyism. One would think a sports guy would understand comraderie... implies he's an angry loner who's never gotten his heart rate up.

    How we honor our losses is not his to judge. He can stay home and watch footbal reruns in his underwear; stay home.

    He's obviously not a 'doer'. Lets hope he writes more crap like that, and lets the world form their opinion of the author.

    Is the pagentry overdone sometimes? sure, I think it could get toned down sometimes. If we look rediculous in the eyes of jealous loosers, who cares.
    Last edited by permaprobie; 11-02-2003 at 08:34 AM.

  8. #28
    FIREMAN 1st GRADE E40FDNYL35's Avatar
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    New York firefighters, admittedly deep in grief over lost co-workers, exacerbated the challenge of body recovery operations after 9/11 by insisting on elaborate removal procedures for each firefighter uncovered, an insult to others who died there.
    WRONG and NOT TRUE.
    While yes we lost members and we did carry them out with Honor we also did the same for ALL innocent victims murdered on 9-11-01. When we could tell the remains were a civilian the Construction Workers carry them out with full honors. Just as a Firefighter or Police Officer.

    I do agree with him with this comment. "But let's save the encomiums for when they are truly deserved, not when they just show up to do their job."

    But I also believe in this comment... "A man's greatest act of bravery is becoming a Fireman. Everything else is in the Line of Duty."

    Chief Croker, FDNY 1906
    Last edited by E40FDNYL35; 11-02-2003 at 05:38 PM.
    ALL GAVE SOME BUT SOME GAVE ALL
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  9. #29
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    Default Re: Freedom of Speech Doesn't Cover Stupidity

    Originally posted by LRFireE135
    Freedom of Speech shall only go as far as this MUTT'S rope shall hang!

    Freedom of Speech doesn't cover LIBEL!!!

    WHAT A MUTT!!! MAN AM I FUMING!!!

    I WROTE HIM ONE HELLUVA NASTY LETTER, MOST LIKELY NOT HIS FIRST FROM ONE OF US, WHICH I POSTED ON THE OTHER THREAD ON THIS TOPIC (bashing the brotherhood)!!!

    Anyone have access to a MUTT HUNTER?

    WHERE'S CAPTAIN GONZO & THE IACOJ WHEN YA REALLY NEED EM?!?!

    (Maybe I just didn't read up far enough...)

    Anyway...Stay Safe Brothers & Sisters!!!
    The bottom line is that this guy has an absolute right to publish a document that freely expresses his opinion. His article didn't slander or libel anyone. Libel doesn't occur just because someone prints something controversial or unpopular. Many people have died defending this freedom that is the foundation of our free society.

    One also has the freedom to post here, whether it be a rational response to the issue or a childish rant with no point whatsoever. That is the beauty of a free society.

    God Bless America.

  10. #30
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    I couldn't let it go without comment.....MUTT

    I read with horror how easily Dougie boy maligned my profession and issulted my brothers. You can ask any firefighter this question, any one and you'll get the same answer:

    Are you a hero? Nope, just doing my job.

    So why does Dougie boy feel it is necessary to point his sharp stick at a group of professionals, both pain and volunteer, that for the most part are underappreciated and underfunded. Jealousy maybe, or cluelessness.

    Sure we have a great work schedule, but we still work more than 40 hours a week. It not like we have some special hours or something. And thank goodness that there aren't more true emergencies. You see most places are understaffed, and have a hard time dealing with the calls they have. Perhaps Doug would rather there were even less Firefighters, so their lives could be put in even greater danger doing what is already a difficult job.

    As for the Stations tours, EMS, and search and rescue comment. Well the last time I checked, those were all in my job description. Perhaps before he put pen to paper he should have done a little research. Maybe even gone to a Fire Station.

    Everytime there is a major emergency or crisis, firefighters go to the top of the heap. We are lauded for doing what we call routine, and in the end, all the promises fall through, and we end up right where we were to being with. That fine, don't call us heros......we never thought we were in the first place.

  11. #31
    Forum Member stm4710's Avatar
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    I read this article and flashed and wrote a nastygram. Then took a breath and re-read the article. I do not agree with 99.5% of his statements.I do agree with his last paragraph though.

    None of this is meant to dispute that firefighters aren't valuable to the communities in which they work. They are. But our society is packed with unheralded heroes—small-town physicians, teachers in poverty-stricken neighborhoods, people who work in dirty, dangerous jobs like coal-mining to support a family. A firefighter plunging into a burning house to retrieve a frightened, smoke-blinded child is a hero. But let's save the encomiums for when they are truly deserved, not when they just show up to do their job.
    I am surprised at the venom in this and its sister thread though.People not likeing firefighters,fire laws and the job in general goes back to 1066 AD with the enaction of Couve-Feu right up to today.
    The author of this article is not alone in dislikeing the fire service nor are his opinions new. Instead of writeing emails to him and challenging his first amendment right which will lead to nothing but a circular and blue lightbar type arguement.
    I suggest if we want to make a difference in the fire serivice we not attack this author,we start with local leaders who lerk in the town hall and wish to cut our budgets. Work with the public to get rid of the Norman Rockwell idea of firefighters sitting in the station and just polishing the already shiny trucks and going to the big factory fire.Show the public your prevention mesures,most of all lets try to market ourselves better to an ever increaseing and diverse audience.

    Just my two cents.

  12. #32
    Forum Member PFire23's Avatar
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    Originally posted by stm4710
    I suggest if we want to make a difference in the fire serivice we not attack this author,we start with local leaders who lerk in the town hall and wish to cut our budgets. Work with the public to get rid of the Norman Rockwell idea of firefighters sitting in the station and just polishing the already shiny trucks and going to the big factory fire.Show the public your prevention mesures,most of all lets try to market ourselves better to an ever increaseing and diverse audience.

    Just my two cents.

    Do you honestly THINK that this is NOT already being done Jesse??
    To the world you might be one person, but to one person you just might be the world.

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  13. #33
    Forum Member Weruj1's Avatar
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    Easy breesy ............
    IACOJ both divisions and PROUD OF IT !
    Pardon me sir.. .....but I believe we are all over here !
    ATTENTION ALL SHOPPERS: Will the dead horse please report to the forums.(thanks Motown)
    RAY WAS HERE 08/28/05
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    I'm sorry, I haven't been paying much attention for the last 3 hours.....what were we discussing?
    "but I guarentee you I will FF your arse off" from>
    http://www.firehouse.com/forums/show...60#post1137060post 115

  14. #34
    MembersZone Subscriber ChiefReason's Avatar
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    I don't know; maybe it's the effects of the pain medication that I am taking for the arthritis, but I read Gantenbein's article twice and I wouldn't waste an email on him, other than to warn him that he is about to receive a mudslide of nastygrams.
    Look; he disagrees with the notion that being a hero is not automatic. He believes that there should be some noble and extraordinary effort put forth in order to use the title of hero. He has every right to offer a different perspective, albeit as unpopular as it is and expect to strike a sour note with the fire service for this article. I don't think that he didn't anticipate a flood of mail for his article. Perhaps the reason he wrote it? To me, the article was poking a stick at us; some was even tongue in cheek. Still some of it was lacking substantive proof, but he has a right to say that the word "hero" is over used.
    I remember a time when we were uncomfortable when we were referred to as heroes. Now, it seems that we are offended if we are not. Does it really matter what others with a limited knowledge of what makes us tick has to say anyway? He will not affect your budget. He will not set up your duty roster. He will not be at your next fundraiser, so does he really matter?
    We are working too hard at getting worked up over this one.
    I'm not defending the man. But I don't find his comments that offensive either.
    Don't cut him slack; just ignore him.
    CR
    Last edited by ChiefReason; 11-02-2003 at 04:03 PM.
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  15. #35
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    You guys are wrong. The title of the piece is "Stop Calling Firefighters heroes". He then tries to prove that in addition to firefighters not being heroes, they are lazy, greedy, overprotected and masters of "propaganda". If you don't want to call a firefighter a hero, that's fine. But to completely downgrade the profession is an insult to all of us, paid or volunteer, wildland or structural. He has his right to try to readjust the definition of a word used too often these days. But an attack on the personal attitudes and motivations of firefighters, even if in general, is not right.

  16. #36
    Forum Member DeputyChiefGonzo's Avatar
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    Let the "author" of this drivel have his day in the sun. The sun will set, time will pass, and the issue of SI this was in will end up in either the recycle or trash bin.

    The day will come when he will dial 911 and our brothers and sisters will have to respond and save his sorry mutt backside....

    Just my 3 cents worth... captains have to pay a little more!
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
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  17. #37
    Forum Member Weruj1's Avatar
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    Art,
    Thasts what I was trying to say !
    IACOJ both divisions and PROUD OF IT !
    Pardon me sir.. .....but I believe we are all over here !
    ATTENTION ALL SHOPPERS: Will the dead horse please report to the forums.(thanks Motown)
    RAY WAS HERE 08/28/05
    LETHA' FOREVA' ! 010607
    I'm sorry, I haven't been paying much attention for the last 3 hours.....what were we discussing?
    "but I guarentee you I will FF your arse off" from>
    http://www.firehouse.com/forums/show...60#post1137060post 115

  18. #38
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    Originally posted by PFire23



    Do you honestly THINK that this is NOT already being done Jesse??
    Bank on it. It's not being done anywhere near enough.

  19. #39
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    Default Wrong!

    I have NOTHING to do with Sports Illustrated, or its parent company. My articles there were written as an independent journalist, which I remain. So your attempts to "get even" by posting the SI and CNN information is pointless.
    Last edited by douggant; 11-02-2003 at 08:35 PM.

  20. #40
    MembersZone Subscriber sconfire's Avatar
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    Well... hmmm... how do we look at this? Could it be that this is the person that exercised his "rights" to bash us for the job that we do.

    Or could it be someone else that is just playing at being this... person...

    If it is this person... I ask a simple question... why do you right such trash as this? I am sure you have run across people that are less than desirable in your travels... but you dont paint the entire profession with the same brush.

    This would be the same if I accused all reporters of faking their stories... like with the "New Republic" and "The New Yorker".

    At least I give you that opportunity.
    Always remember the CHARLESTON 9

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