Need a sanity check on the best (& quickest) ways to vent large steel commercial (front) with warehouse in rear type with heavy fuel loads (class A commbustibles).
Which is best Horizontal or Vertical Vent(what lead you to your method)?
We've got some large steel overhead doors! What procedure and/or tools work best to open these up (saw types and blades that you prefer).
How much venting is too much?
Does PPV work in these type buildings (40,000 sq. ft. and bigger)?
Any info you can give me will allow me to sleep easier. . .
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11-06-2003, 01:30 PM #1
- Join Date
- Nov 1999
Ventilation in Large Steel Commercial Buildings (limited windows)?GB
11-09-2003, 03:42 AM #2
Is this the town we cross through on the way to Montreal?
On topic, I'd imagine a metal cutting blade on a rotary saw (K12) could eat through the door. As far as PPV'ing the building, you could get several little fans or one of those big air-boatish type fans for warehouses.
Strategically, I'm not sure when/where you would opt to do this as I have no experience in that area and I'd just be guessing.
11-11-2003, 03:58 PM #3
I would have to say horizontal ventilation - but you can't really be certain -- Size up of fire conditions upon arrival - as well as the strategy and tactics that you plan to use are going to dictate which method you are going to use.
I say horizontal - because the roof will more than likely be of truss construction -- and following the fire service mantra "NEVER TRUST THE TRUSS!!"
Horizontal ventilation may save you from having to put firefighters on the roof.
As for the large steel overhead doors - I have to say a K-12 with a metal cutting blade -- cut an inverted V - and pull the slats out.
How much venting is too much? Is there such a thing as too much fresh air???Marc
"In Omnia Paratus"
Member - IACOJ
-- The opinions presented here are my own; and are not those of any organization that I belong to, or work for.
11-11-2003, 09:41 PM #4
- Join Date
- Dec 2002
Types of ventilation and forcible entry depend on what type of commercial building you are dealing with, as well as fire load, time, etc. The building you presented has a very generalized description. In regards to steel overhead doors, what type? Rolling steel (type with slats) are best opened with one vertical cut down the middle and through the angle iron at the base, then pull the slats. The inverted V with pulling slats will work, but takes longer because you are making extra cuts, versus just one cut down the middle. If the slats are riveted or deeply recessed, then you will need to make relief cuts one foot from the left and right sides of the door in order to remove the slats. If the door is sectional,use the "Inverted L" cut: vertical cut about one foot from the left end of the door and down through the angle iron, then a horizontal cut from left to right, connecting with the vertical cut. This allows you to "swing" the door out, then after the company enters, finish the third cut vertically near the right side of the door without connecting the horizontal cut until you have cut down through the angle iron on the right side. Use the same cut with sheet curtain doors. There are excellent examples of these cuts in "Truck Company Operations by John Mittendorf", a retired Los Angeles City Battlation Chief. Tilt up metal doors offer more problems, especially when the cross bracing is wider than the blade of you saw. Prefire planning your area and having an operation for each type of door will help determine how to cut these doors. We use K950 Partner saws with 14" metal cutting blades, which work excellent and aren't as bulky as K12's. Vertical ventilation depends on what type of roof. Is it conventional, light weight? If you have arched truss (ribbed), you can have an extended operation due to the large size of lumber used. This type of truss is very strong and excels under heavy fire load. You may not have this type in your area; we have plenty in California. Knowing the year of your building and preplanning will largely determine how you ventilate because you will know rafter size, direction, sheeting, fire load, etc. Also important is risk vs. gain. If no one is inside and you have heavy fire showing througout the building, then its time to take an extra minute to think about putting your men inside this building. Again, there are many factors which will determine how and when you ventilate a structure. The most important thing is to have an operation you whole company knows.
11-15-2003, 04:36 PM #5
- Join Date
- Apr 2003
With the picture you have given me I would say K-12 saws with a metal cutting blade and a inverted V for the doors. Thats works pretty well in most situations. You would have to look at the situation to determine whether to go on the roof or to stick with horizontal ventilation. Truss construction is very dangerous under heavy fire conditions. But if possible I would say that verticle ventilation would be the best.JASONSFD LADDER 5
IAFF L2801 WOODEN LADDERS AND IRON MEN
11-16-2003, 01:13 AM #6
(And remember, if it's dangerous to be on the truss roof, then it is dangerous to be under it as well, and within the collapse zone of the building.)
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