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  1. #1
    MembersZone Subscriber SamsonFCDES's Avatar
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    Default MSA Evolution 5000 TIC

    Has anybody used these yet?

    What are they selling for?

    Impressions?

    Comparison to Bullard T3?

    Thanks
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  2. #2
    Forum Member tripperff's Avatar
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    Default It's the front runner on our list

    We've borrowed an MSA 4000 and a Scott Eagle from neighboring FD's and it was no contest, MSA hands down. We've also had other demo's at our stationand still no contest. I'll admit he's biased but I don't disagree with him on one statement our MSA rep made about the 5000. It's actually a scaled down version of the 4000. If you're looking for a smaller TIC I would suggest the MSA. The only real drawback I saw was if you use the telemetry option you need to put the antenna on the camera before you go in because it won't fit in the charger with it attached. I't not a big deal, just need to remember to do it. I do have to also suggest that you do thorough research before deciding. Part of the high opinion I have for MSA products is that their rep in our area works well with all the fire departments. I don't know where you are so the rep in your area could be a jack*****, could be a great guy. I guess you need to find the right combo of a product that works well and suits your specific needs and after the sale support that doesn't vanish when the check clears. Good Luck!
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  3. #3
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    We purchased a MSA 3000 and 5000. I wished we would have got 2 5000's.
    It is user friendly, good picture,and good battery life. We have it in the truck charger mounted on the officer seat, very handy. I believe it is easier to hanlde and better pitcher than the Bullard.

  4. #4
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    We just recieved a 5000. I have not used any other TIC before but do like the 5000. Our county Fire Association is raising money to purchase one for each of our departments we were lucky enough to recieve one in the first round. I believe they are paying around $8,000 dollars for the 24 we are going to purchase when we are done-ballpark figure.

    MSA put on a fantastic training for the camera. I am the trainer for our department because of the class. While training the other members of our department we had a call back for a smoldering piece of wood on a barn fire the night before and played with it. The guys where really impressed. Then that night we had a structure fire and used it. It was fantastic.

    Since I have never tried one before (our county committee made the decision for ours) I by no means can give an honest opinion against the other ones all I can really say is I do like the one we are using.

  5. #5
    MembersZone Subscriber SamsonFCDES's Avatar
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    Default

    Thanks for the reviews guys. They sound like good units. I hoep to ber able to compare them to a Bullard T3 before we buy.

    Our biggest problem is that we have no area reps for any fire stuff what so ever. We are rural montana, the nearest reps are 10 plus hours in any direction.

    The 8000$ priced tag sounds pretty good. That at least is comparable with ISG FC80 and With T3 from what I gather.

    Thanks again.

    Do you have any stories you can tell about useing the Evo 5000 on the fire ground or in training?
    -Brotherhood: I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.
    -Mistakes: It could be that the purpose of you life is to serve as a warning to others.

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  6. #6
    Forum Member tripperff's Avatar
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    Default Some further thoughts

    Samson, one thing you need to take into consideration is that lmrchief2's department belongs to an association that is buying the camera, and they are buying 24 of them. $8000 sounds about right for a large purchase like that, but 1 or 2 camera's will get you a quote similar to ours. We were quoted between 9 and 10 grand for the basic camera and a little over 11 grand with the options we wanted. I think the others mentioned will be about the same with the same options.

    Another thing I learned during our MSA demo had to do with the telemetry option. If you choose this, be careful of news teams on your scenes. If it's just a camera guy in an SUV or something you're ok, but if one of their remote broadcast vans shows up they can lock in to the signal going from the camera to the base unit. Fortunately it only works when the base unit is turned on so they can't lock on when just the camera is being used. Just something to keep in mind.
    Last edited by tripperff; 11-08-2003 at 03:16 PM.
    Cleverly disguised as a responsible adult.

    Anything found in my posts is soley my opinion and not representative of any other individual or entity.

    You know that thing inside your helmet? Use it wisely and you'll be just fine.

  7. #7
    Forum Member Rescue101's Avatar
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    Default Well worth a look

    Samson,This piece of equipment is well worth your consideration.I have used all three and although I like the K90 ISG I do not share the same affection for the 80.T3 and the 5000 would make a good shootout.T.C.

  8. #8
    Protective Economist Jonathan Bastian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Well worth a look

    Originally posted by Rescue101
    Samson,This piece of equipment is well worth your consideration.I have used all three and although I like the K90 ISG I do not share the same affection for the 80.T3 and the 5000 would make a good shootout.T.C.
    For a fair evaluation, I encourage you to compare the T3MAX to the Ev5000. They use similar sensors and have similar image quality (in ambient conditions). The T3 has been replaced by the T3LT.

    Jonathan Bastian
    TI Training Manager, Bullard

  9. #9
    Protective Economist Jonathan Bastian's Avatar
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    Originally posted by lmrchief2
    MSA put on a fantastic training for the camera. I am the trainer for our department because of the class.
    Out of curiousity, who did MSA have do the training? SAFE-IR? A local rep?

  10. #10
    Forum Member Bones42's Avatar
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    Default

    My sister company has a 4000. We put it up against a 5000 in some live burn drills. We are now getting at least 1 more 4000. The 5000 just didn't have the "comfort" that the 4000 has. Can't say it was bad, just liked the 4000 better.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  11. #11
    Forum Member Rescue101's Avatar
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    Bones,Are you nuts?Or just into "big screens"?hehe T.C.

  12. #12
    Protective Economist Jonathan Bastian's Avatar
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    Default

    Originally posted by Rescue101
    Bones,Are you nuts?Or just into "big screens"?hehe T.C.
    Naw, TC...he just likes 7 lb cameras!

  13. #13
    MembersZone Subscriber SamsonFCDES's Avatar
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    Default Re: Re: Well worth a look

    Originally posted by firemanjb


    For a fair evaluation, I encourage you to compare the T3MAX to the Ev5000. They use similar sensors and have similar image quality (in ambient conditions). The T3 has been replaced by the T3LT.

    Jonathan Bastian
    TI Training Manager, Bullard
    Thanks JB. I am hopeing to have that shootout aranged soon.

    I do like the pistol grip of the EVO 5000 over the palm T3s, but if you add the pistol grip to the T3 it makes it more ergonimic IMO.

    Ergonomics is my favorite part of the Evo 5000.
    -Brotherhood: I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.
    -Mistakes: It could be that the purpose of you life is to serve as a warning to others.

    -Adversity: That which does not kill me postpones the inevitable.

    -Despair: Its always darkest before it goes Pitch Black.

  14. #14
    Protective Economist Jonathan Bastian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Re: Re: Well worth a look

    Originally posted by SamsonFCDES


    Thanks JB. I am hopeing to have that shootout aranged soon.

    I do like the pistol grip of the EVO 5000 over the palm T3s, but if you add the pistol grip to the T3 it makes it more ergonimic IMO.

    Ergonomics is my favorite part of the Evo 5000.
    I am biased, obviously, so I'll just suggest that you make each salesperson PROVE what he says. If you do not have a live fire evaluation, use the kitchen sink and the kitchen oven to simulate water and heat. Be reasonable, but be demanding.

    And if a salesperson doesn't have confidence to put the camera in an oven at 300F for 10 minutes or so, then I suggest you strongly question all of his product claims.

    And, both imagers have temperature readout. Take note: temperature readout is only accurate if you have perfect conditions. Colorization is equally inaccurate (it is based on saturation of the detector, not actual temperature). Also, it does NOT measure air temperature. No camera can tell you the air temperature of a room before you go in. Temperature measurement will NOT help you predict or avoid a flashover. PERIOD.

  15. #15
    MembersZone Subscriber SamsonFCDES's Avatar
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    Default Re: Re: Re: Re: Well worth a look

    Originally posted by firemanjb


    I am biased, obviously, so I'll just suggest that you make each salesperson PROVE what he says. If you do not have a live fire evaluation, use the kitchen sink and the kitchen oven to simulate water and heat. Be reasonable, but be demanding.

    And if a salesperson doesn't have confidence to put the camera in an oven at 300F for 10 minutes or so, then I suggest you strongly question all of his product claims.

    And, both imagers have temperature readout. Take note: temperature readout is only accurate if you have perfect conditions. Colorization is equally inaccurate (it is based on saturation of the detector, not actual temperature). Also, it does NOT measure air temperature. No camera can tell you the air temperature of a room before you go in. Temperature measurement will NOT help you predict or avoid a flashover. PERIOD.
    Thanks for the advice JB.

    WOW, put the TIC in the oven on bake or broil...

    Sure, why not, as long as we havent signed anything yet!

    How about 10 minutes at 300F and then dropping it into a sink full of cold water to simulte a FF getting a full on drencing by a attack line?
    -Brotherhood: I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.
    -Mistakes: It could be that the purpose of you life is to serve as a warning to others.

    -Adversity: That which does not kill me postpones the inevitable.

    -Despair: Its always darkest before it goes Pitch Black.

  16. #16
    Protective Economist Jonathan Bastian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Well worth a look

    Originally posted by SamsonFCDES


    Thanks for the advice JB.

    WOW, put the TIC in the oven on bake or broil...

    Sure, why not, as long as we havent signed anything yet!

    How about 10 minutes at 300F and then dropping it into a sink full of cold water to simulte a FF getting a full on drencing by a attack line?
    That might be a little extreme...in fairness to the salesperson, he might have to show that camera to another potential customer later that night. Maybe let the camera sit for 5 minutes just so you don't crack his housing by mistake? But, it strikes me overall as a reasonable test.

    There is no NFPA standard for TIs. FDs should verify every manufacturer's claim themselves as much as possible.

  17. #17
    MembersZone Subscriber SamsonFCDES's Avatar
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    Default Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Well worth a look

    Originally posted by firemanjb


    That might be a little extreme...in fairness to the salesperson, he might have to show that camera to another potential customer later that night. Maybe let the camera sit for 5 minutes just so you don't crack his housing by mistake? But, it strikes me overall as a reasonable test.

    There is no NFPA standard for TIs. FDs should verify every manufacturer's claim themselves as much as possible.
    Sure, I will give the 5 minute coold down period, no problem.

    Question, How water proof are TICs? Are there any that can take submersion a couple feet of water? Just curious.

    I would imagine that the drop test is not that popular with sales reps. I suppose the large formate and heavier TICs are at a disadvantage in that category.

    JB, I have a Bullard T3LT/MAX questoin for you.

    How is the pistol grip attached? Is is a robust mounting? I am a bit worried about the pistol grip comeing loose in rough conditions.

    What do you suggest for a T3 retainer method. Do you use a gear keeper, some sort of laynard? Should it be hooked to the SCBA shoulder harness or to the belt?

    Just some ergonomics questions in general I guess.

    Thanks.
    -Brotherhood: I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.
    -Mistakes: It could be that the purpose of you life is to serve as a warning to others.

    -Adversity: That which does not kill me postpones the inevitable.

    -Despair: Its always darkest before it goes Pitch Black.

  18. #18
    Protective Economist Jonathan Bastian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Well worth a look

    Originally posted by SamsonFCDES
    Question, How water proof are TICs? Are there any that can take submersion a couple feet of water? Just curious.

    I would imagine that the drop test is not that popular with sales reps. I suppose the large formate and heavier TICs are at a disadvantage in that category.

    How is the pistol grip attached? Is is a robust mounting? I am a bit worried about the pistol grip comeing loose in rough conditions.

    What do you suggest for a T3 retainer method. Do you use a gear keeper, some sort of laynard? Should it be hooked to the SCBA shoulder harness or to the belt?
    A number of TIs are tested to IP67, which means they can theoretically stand 30 minutes under 3 ft of water. Reality is different. 1st, TIs don't work under water, so you won't be taking them for dive rescues. 2nd, most TIs float, so 3 ft of water is probably not an issue. 3rd, after you bang it around on a fireground, the seals may not be as tight as "factory tested". I'd recommend washing it off in a sink or with a 1.5" line...that's probably the realistic fireground exposure to water.

    The drop test is not popular, but again, I highly recommend it. Remember, there is no one out there testing and verifying the durability of a TI. And yes, the larger imagers are at a disadvantage due to mass. Most big cameras are 3 ft drop test, small are 5 or 6 ft. Again, what's the reality? A guy might knock it off the tailboard at a fire, or toss it onto the driveway after making a rescue. Make the salesperson prove it can survive those likely situatitons. Don't let him sing and dance his way out of proving it to you. In short, if he doesn't have confidence in its durability, why should you?

    The handle for the T3 is attached with a 1/4" metal screw into a metal threaded plate. I have, frankly, not really abused one. But, for all the times we have used them to capture training video, I have never broken one either. I am not aware of any street incidents where someone has broken a T3 handle. I much prefer the small size and ease of use without a handle. For me, the camcorder feel is easy and intuitive; I find the handle just adds size and weight. But, that's my preference.

    The T3MAX or T3LT comes with a quick strap that can be attached to the SCBA harness. There is also a Gear Keeper strap available; it is a special version to retract with an imager at the end. I like it, but the slight pull against it can tire the shoulder after a few hours. Not your average fire ground problem, but it could get tiresome on long incidents.

    Hope that helps...anything else? jonathan_bastian@bullard.com

  19. #19
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    we have 2 MSA tic not quite shure what model they are but they are new and work great.
    IF YOU FOLLOW ALL OF THE RULES YOU MISS ALL OF THE FUN.

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  20. #20
    MembersZone Subscriber SamsonFCDES's Avatar
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    Thanks JB, that clears up some questions I have been haveing.

    I do have a story on the drop test. Our closest neiborh department had a demo for a Bullard TI. The sales rep was very brave with it, he did all sorts of things.

    He held it up eye level, 6' tall guy. He let it go, it rotated and landed right on the corner of the display! On the concrete floor of the truck bay! He picked it to and started...

    "See, not a scra..." The corner of the display had cracked a bit, but the TIC still worked just fine.

    That probly sold them on it more then anything. The screen was easily replaced, but they were impressed that it could take that sort of shock and still function, crack or no.
    -Brotherhood: I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.
    -Mistakes: It could be that the purpose of you life is to serve as a warning to others.

    -Adversity: That which does not kill me postpones the inevitable.

    -Despair: Its always darkest before it goes Pitch Black.

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