1. #26
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    Originally posted by ThNozzleman

    I still disagree; the fire department minimizes the damage that, unchecked, could possibly kill more people, or destroy more property. If a "terrorist" detonates a bomb that starts a fire, the fire department is there to stop the loss. That's defense. If the fire department or police department rescues people that otherwise would have died in the attack, that's defense, too.
    You are still talking apples and oranges. Homeland security is the process of gathering and analyzing intelligence, taking proactive and preventitive measures and identifying responsible parties and threats to the country. It is not a knock on the fire service to say that they do not participate in this process.

    Yes they do play a major role in mitigating the circumstances after the attack happens. But if the homeland security aspect is succesful, then there will be no need for the FD to participate in the process.

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    I heard the Massachussetts National Guard has Military Parades through Boston once a week and all citizens are required to stand there, lifeless with a blank expression and wave state flags...

    I guess when John "Karl Marx" Kerry becomes president we can all be part of a stalinist regime.

    Just kidding people...but I had to break one on my Left-sided fellows from the Northeast.

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    You are still talking apples and oranges. Homeland security is the process of gathering and analyzing intelligence, taking proactive and preventitive measures and identifying responsible parties and threats to the country. It is not a knock on the fire service to say that they do not participate in this process.
    OK, you've gone and changed words on me. I don't see how any reasonable person could say that fire and police departments are not part of our homeland defense. Your definition of "homeland security" is rather narrow, I think.

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    After reading all of your posts and definitions...I am siding with George. I see FDs as controlling the problem after it occurs, not preventing the problem from occurring.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Just kidding people...but I had to break one on my Left-sided fellows from the Northeast.
    Just remember there are a HUGE number of "Right" minded people whose voices are drowned out by the flaming libs in Boston, Brookline, Newton, Wellesley, and the other towns.

    By the way, from my house, if I am in the right spot I can see freedom. That freedom, New Hampshire. I guess it is sort of like looking across the Berlin wall and seeing freedom from East Berlin. Someday, baby. Someday.

    I guess when John "Karl Marx" Kerry becomes president we can all be part of a stalinist regime.
    See Da Sharkie shuddering at the thought. Nooooooooooooooooooooooooo!

    At least Fat Boy - aka Ted Kennedy - is behind him so that guarantees Kerry a couple hundred thousand votes. Mine will not be one of them. I can think for myself, not follow the Kennedy mantra.

    all citizens are required to stand there, lifeless with a blank expression and wave state flags...
    That lifeless look is people trying to figure out how to pay their bills after all of the state taxes are sucked out of them. Then we have to figure out how to pay for the house because they are so expensive up here - In July, the average cost of a single family home in Taxachusetts was $450,000. The average cost of a condo in Taxachusetts? $290,000. No wonder I can't afford to live the American Dream.
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  6. #31
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    Originally posted by ThNozzleman

    OK, you've gone and changed words on me. I don't see how any reasonable person could say that fire and police departments are not part of our homeland defense. Your definition of "homeland security" is rather narrow, I think.
    OK. Then educate me.

    What action does your fire department take to PREVENT a terrorist strike?

  7. #32
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    Default Insurance and Security

    George you are absolutely correct Fire Departments don't do anything in regards to prevention.

    However "homeland security" is much more than just prevention.

    That is because we are an insurance policy for when your infallible Law Enforcement fails at preventing terrorist attacks. Just as has happened in three colossal failures.

    -OKCity
    -WTC bombing
    -9-11
    and in numerous other smaller or widespread incidents...
    -Olympic Park bombing
    -Anthrax
    Etc.

    And on an international level...
    -Daily attacks in Israel
    -Tokyo subway attacks
    Etc.

    The firemen in Great Britain did little to prevent the Germans from bombing them during WWII, however they served in the defense of their country by saving lives and preventing the spread of the fires. I ask you was this not critical to their defense?

    After every incident promises were made by politicians and police chiefs that "We will do everything to see that this never happens again... And what happens...twice now it has happened again!!

    I'm sure that you and everyone in here do everything in their power to prevent a fire in their home. However I'm sure that most if not all of you have substantial insurance policies on your home, families, car and most of all yourself. The insurance policy you have is designed to provide security in that they will reimburse you (or your next of kin) in the event of catastrophic loss. Also you pay taxes or donate money for a fire department to help stem the loss in your house or save the life of your children.

    Twice now Law Enforcement has failed. And who is there to stem the loss of life and property from fire and haz-mat? Not the Cops (they had their chance)...not EMS.... it is the Fire Department. (Does the PD and EMS play a role? Sure but a much smaller one.) Fire Depts. are not asking for money to create terrorism prevention programs. They are asking for money to deal with the incidents after Law Enforcement failures. They are there to stem the losses and prevent the spread and escalation of the incident after the cops drop the ball.

    The terrorists are not going away and there will unfortunately probably be another failure of Law Enforcement and regardless if we have the funding or not...who will everyone call...the fire department.

    FTM-PTB

    PS: I'll agree that there are many FDs and states that are getting tools, equipment and funding for a problem they don't or statisticly won't have. (I would liken it to purchasing flood insurance for a house on the top of a hill.) I'm sure Pigsknuckle, Arkansas isn't on the top of terrorists lists of potential targets. Cities such as those should be more woried about the typical structure fires (where 8 FFs is a 2nd alarm response!) and typcial haz-mat hazards rather than biologcial toxins and Dirty bombs. They should work towards convincing the people why they need more members to even properly and safely attack a house fire. Meanwhile my dept which protects either the Number 1 or 2 target (depending on how you would classify NY and DC) has limited resources considering the size and potential hazards we face.
    Last edited by FFFRED; 11-11-2003 at 04:08 PM.

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    Fred, point taken, but what you are describing falls more accurately under the unbrella of Domestic Preparedness. Homeland Security is more accurately described as I stated earlier.

    I take issue with one point. You state "Law enforcement has failed twice" and make it sound like there are no successes. I would submit to you that there are a number of cases where law enforcement (including the military and intelligence community) have interdicted a terrorist plot and prevented enormous loss of life. The two cases that some immediately to mind are the Millenium bombing in LA and the plot to blow up the bridges and tunnels in NYC in 2000. There are also little battles won that never make it into print. The money being spent on law enforcement in homekand security is not wasted money.

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    Default Agreed

    George,

    You are right there have been successes...some known to us and others we will never hear about. I'm sorry I failed to mention them. I also remember hearing about a plot to blow up the space neddle in Seatle that was prevented.(perhaps that is one in the same with the LA Bombing)

    I'm of the opinion we should adequately fund Law Enforcement and Fire Departments to deal with the repsonsibilites they are faced with. I'm not sure whether it matters if one calls it preparedness or security...in some sense I think the definitions overlap somewhat. While we provide a service that might fall under preparedness...It gives the civilians we protect security to know that we are there.

    FTM-PTB

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    OK. Then educate me. What action does your fire department take to PREVENT a terrorist strike?
    Again, only YOU have given such a narrow definition to the concept of "defense." Just as in football, defense means actively moving to counter the actions (offense) of the other guys (terrorist) and minimize the damage to lives and property caused by the incident. Who says that defense is limited to prevention activities? Where do you think the term "civil defense" came from in the first place? When people work together to stop a situation that is causing damage and harm, that is defense. I find it hard to believe that you still don't accept what most people, from the President on down, do; the fire service IS a critical part of our domestic defense system. There; you've been educated.

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    There; you've been educated.
    Here's a shocker: We don't agree.

    You call it defense, I call it security. You say the fire service is in it. I say it's not. We have had this debate before and got to the same place we are today.

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    You call it defense, I call it security. You say the fire service is in it. I say it's not. We have had this debate before and got to the same place we are today.
    Yep; with you in total denial of the facts. I don't care what it's called; it is obvious that the fire service would be a critical factor in the response to a disaster, man-made or otherwise. That should have been made crystal clear after the World Trade Center attacks.

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    I hope it works and they work out the bugs in it. If you read the other thread on this subject, as usual hwoods has some very valid points and concerns.

    I know my department could benefit from it. We have gone from having 6 firefighters/shift (1 station) in the mid-90s to 5 in 2001 and this year we have been cut back to min/max of 4/shift.

    Puts us in a bind with 1710, OSHA 2 in 2 out and you name it. The administrators for the city just do not get it!
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    The administrators for the city just do not get it!
    Exactly. It's OUR money, anyway; not the Federal Government. Although there are issues with the Fire Act grant program, it's still the best thing to come along for fire departments across the country, ever. For this to work, however, the local governments will have to eventually step up and figure out a way to retain any new firefighters hired through the grant. I hope there are some stipulations on receiving a grant to guarantee this. I guess we'll find out if it ever gets going.

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    Originally posted by ThNozzleman

    Yep; with you in total denial of the facts. I don't care what it's called; it is obvious that the fire service would be a critical factor in the response to a disaster, man-made or otherwise. That should have been made crystal clear after the World Trade Center attacks.
    But I put my debate forward without any personal attacks on you. Too bad you couldn't do likewise.

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    it is obvious that the fire service would be a critical factor in the response to a disaster
    response to the disaster, not prevention of it, not security from it....simply response to it.

    the local governments will have to eventually step up and figure out a way to retain any new firefighters hired through the grant.
    and this is why I don't believe SAFER act will be any great news. They'll cut their budgets by the amount they can get from SAFER, and when the SAFER runs out, they still won't increase the budget back to where it was before SAFER.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    But I put my debate forward without any personal attacks on you. Too bad you couldn't do likewise.
    Personal attack?? Give me a break; I stated an opinion, nothing more. To me, you are ignoring the facts. Simple and direct,yes, but far from a "personal attack."

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    response to the disaster, not prevention of it, not security from it....simply response to it.
    Once again, when an agency contains and controls an incident, it is PREVENTING further damage and harm from being done.
    and this is why I don't believe SAFER act will be any great news. They'll cut their budgets by the amount they can get from SAFER, and when the SAFER runs out, they still won't increase the budget back to where it was before SAFER.
    That's exactly why I stated that I hope there are stipulations in the grant requirements that prevent local governments from doing this, just like the Fire Act rules state.

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    The only stipulation that I can recall from reading was that it was for 5 years, but you only get money for the first 4 years and the 5th is all on their own. No mention of a 6th, 7th, 8th, etc.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    I guess we'll just have to wait for the details. Hopefully, a local government can decide if the can come up with the extra money to maintain the new-hires within the four year period. If they don't think that it's possible, they should refrain from applying for the grant in the first place. They should be made to have a plan in place to retain these new firefighters, before they are allowed to continue in the process. In other words, if they can present a solid, four/five year plan to absorb the entire cost of the firefighters that are hired using the grant to SAFER staff, then they can proceed. If they are not willing to do that, then they shouldn't get the grant, in my opinion.

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    Bones...I think there is a stipulation on the maximum amount per person, but I am not sure if there is a limit to the "Number of people." I am sure I could find it if I had the entire bill to look at.

    I see it passed the senate, now all they have to do is find the funding. My thoughts tell me they will be overwhelmed by the response/requests for funding once it becomes law. I know it is already on the desk of our city manager and city clerk.
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    Originally posted by ChiefReason
    A maximum of $100,000 per firefighter? I realize that salary and benefits add up, but 100K?CR
    My quickie spreadsheet for this stupid porkbarrel legislation is that a fixed salary/cost of $66666 per year would max out the $100k grant cap. Fed portion of $46666, $33333, $13333, $6667, 0 = $100000

    Call your senator/congressman to appropriate ZERO $ to this thing. No appropriation and no program.

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    Call your senator/congressman to appropriate ZERO $ to this thing. No appropriation and no program.
    I'm on the phone right now...NOT.

  24. #49
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    I would not look to kill this either. I'm not sure it will be anything great, but at least it's a start. There are other areas of the Act besides hiring firefighters.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  25. #50
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    Just eliminate the moneys for the fire departments and give it ALL to the cops. If they do all this prevention and security, then we won't need the extra fire services response to mop up the mess. So why fund them?
    My posts reflect my views and opinions, not the organization I work for or my IAFF local. Some of which they may not agree. I.A.C.O.J. member
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