1. #1
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    Post Thermal Imaging Camera

    HELP Requested

    I am looking into gathering information for a TIC for my dept and I was wonderign if any one out there could help me. I am looking for recommendations or things to look out for when buying.

    thanks

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    MSA's good camera, easy to use. just got two of them.
    IF YOU FOLLOW ALL OF THE RULES YOU MISS ALL OF THE FUN.

    Moose (Post 2028 Vice President/ Command Officer)Explorer Highland Twp. Fire/Rescue Dept.

    Any Questions Contact Me At Moose20282@yahoo.com

    These Are My Opinions, Not that of My Dept. or Any other Orgnazition I Belong to.

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    Hi. I am on a similar mission for my department. While I cant give you much advice since I have never before purchased a TIC, I can give you an idea about what I have been up to in my search for the optimal TIC for my VFD.

    After about 3 months of research with limited availability of a demo units (A bullard TI is the only one I have spent much time with) I have it narrowed down to either the MSA Evolution 5000 or the Bullard T3LT or maybe the T3MAX. In a couple of weeks I hope to have a head to head shootout arranged so that we can do a thourough evaluation of these two units.

    That is about all I can tell you. I had looked into ISG since they are priced low, but the ergonomics of the MSA Evo 5000 seem beter, and the T3 seems to have better quality then the ISG units.

    There are getting to be a lot of units out there, so by all means take your time and look around.

    I do like the Helmet View helmet mount TIC, but I have heard bad things about helmet mounted TICs. They are hard to keep oriented, if your helmet gets bumped you may end up looking off to the side when you dont know you are. They are harder to hand off, although the Helmet View does this a little better. They add weight to the helmet and to your neck.

    I have heard bad things about the Scott TICs IIRC. I was told they have poor ergonomics and that that are just a notch below par. Anybody have any comments on this?

    http://www.nationalinfrared.com/Eagle_Imager.php

    http://www.newscottproducts.com/eagleimager160/

    Some of the larger units, ISG Taliman, Bullard TI and such seem to be to cumbersom from what I have experienced. The Larger units do have the benefit of a larger screen and possibly a larger field of view. But, they are bulkier and heavier.


    Maybe this will help, a TIC survey.

    http://vvv.state.ct.us/cfpc/sfa/drtics.html

    Does anybody have any department evaluations they could share concerning TICs? I would be realy interested in reading performance reports and evaluation results.

    I have not heard much about Cairns Viper or IRIS II, or most of the other off brands.

    Cairns

    http://www.cairnsat.com/home_page.htm

    Fire Optic

    http://www.infraredcomponents.com/foptic/fireoptic.htm

    Thanks.

    Hope that helps a bit. I also have a tread about the Evolution 5000 going that has some good insight.
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    I have never used or tested some of these cameras, but I would not be interested in gettig them anyway.

    They are to damn big and bulky.

    They are from companies that seem to be on the "Me Too" side of things, they just have a TIC because everybody else does.

    They are not realy that ergnomic.

    I cant imagine trying to use an axe in an interior attack while haveing this thing hanging from my neck...



    Some links to TICs that made my looser list.

    http://e2vtechnologies.com/argus_3_c...troduction.htm

    http://www.intsafety.com/thermal.html

    http://www.scotthealthsafety.com/eagle1.htm

    http://www.korins.com/m/ic/features.htm

    http://www.nationalinfrared.com/Eagle_Imager.php

    Those and pretty much all of the large formate TICs I ruled out do to either poor ergonomics or off brand anxiety.

    Some TICs that didnt exactly loose, but are on a watch list.

    http://www.gosage.com/helmetvue.htm

    http://www.firehelmets.co.uk/
    -Brotherhood: I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.
    -Mistakes: It could be that the purpose of you life is to serve as a warning to others.

    -Adversity: That which does not kill me postpones the inevitable.

    -Despair: Its always darkest before it goes Pitch Black.

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    Just purchased the Argus (or what used to be argus) from E2V technologies. We used a demo for 3 days in a burn building before purchase and were very pleased with its performance. Nice features: ambient and optional spot temperatures, 27 still image capture (just like a digital camera). Optional transmitter and receiver for video images. I have used and I am not impressed with the bullard low end camera. EV2 gives you much more for the money.
    Career/Volunteer, We are all professionals!

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    Originally posted by drkblram
    samson, I don't know how old that CT camera survey is, but I'm guessing atleast close to 2 years. good impression it still is, but I would like to see what it would look like updated.
    True enough. I just happened across it by chance when searching for TICs.

    Would anybody have information on what TICs the larger US departments are useing?

    Say Chicago, FDNY, Las Vegas, etc...

    I would like to know what TICs they went with, why they chose them, how they have performed, leassons learned, and what they plan on getting next.

    If there is anybody that is good with web sites, likes TICs, and has some spare time, a website devoted solely to fire servie TICs giveing experiences, reviews, comparison, stattistics, etc... would be a godsend to guys like me. I am from a small rural department who only gets the change to buy high dollar equipment like this once a decade or so. I dont want to get stuck with a POS TIC. Also, I am very limited in being able to demo and field test TICs. We are very very far from any TIC dealers so getting demos is very very difficult. I have been promised a demo unit by mail form 3 different main stream TIC companies, that never happened.

    I am relying on what I can find out about the TIC units from the internet and from our neiborh departments, but they are as limited as we are. Forums like this are about my best source for honest reviews and impressions of TICs.

    I do not doubt the accuracy of the manufacuturer specs, but that only tells half the story. Until you can hold it in your hand, get it wet, drop it, use it, you will not know much about it. I realy should try to make it to a fire expo, but that is not in the budget either.

    Oh well, if I go with a T3MAX or a EVO 5000, IMO I cant go to far wrong. They are popular brands and advanced models, they have good ergonomics, and their technology is up to date as any other TICs. What I cant get from research is the intangibles. The little things that can drive you nuts or make you a true beleiver.
    -Brotherhood: I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.
    -Mistakes: It could be that the purpose of you life is to serve as a warning to others.

    -Adversity: That which does not kill me postpones the inevitable.

    -Despair: Its always darkest before it goes Pitch Black.

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    Originally posted by SamsonFCDES
    Would anybody have information on what TICs the larger US departments are useing?

    Say Chicago, FDNY, Las Vegas, etc...

    I would like to know what TICs they went with, why they chose them, how they have performed, leassons learned, and what they plan on getting next.

    If there is anybody that is good with web sites, likes TICs, and has some spare time, a website devoted solely to fire servie TICs giveing experiences, reviews, comparison, stattistics, etc... would be a godsend to guys like me.
    13 of the 20 largest cities in the USA have chosen Bullard: samples include (in no particular order): Chicago, Boston, Los Angeles, Indianapolis, San Francisco, San Antonio, Jacksonville, Phoenix, Memphis.

    FDNY street companies have MSA 4000s (HAZMAT has a Bullard).

    Houston has Scott Eagle 1s.

    While the site is run by us at Bullard, this should help you answer some questions, as well as give links to other imagers: www.thermalimager.com. If you have specific technical questions, let me know, I'd be glad to answer as honestly as humanly possible.

    jonathan_bastian@bullard.com

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    Originally posted by firemanjb




    FDNY street companies have MSA 4000s (HAZMAT has a Bullard).


    jonathan_bastian@bullard.com
    FDNY does use the MSA, however, they are currently demoing the Bullard T3Max's.

    We just purchased 2 T3Max's ourselves and so far are very happy with them. Two pluses are the size and ease of operation. You also can't beat the turn around time of repairs and availible loaner if repairs are needed. We were also able to cut out the bidding process since they're availible through state bid.

    Previous to the purchase we did look at Argus, Scott, ISG and MSA cameras. The only other that came close to our likes was the ISG K90 and K1000 mini cams. The K90 seemed compatible to the basic Bullard T3 and the K1000 Elite seemed alittle over kill and over priced as it listed for almost $19,000. Since the local rep never returned phone calls or emails I never did find out what the selling price would be.

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    We have recently purchased a TIx camera from Bullard with thermal throttle and transmitter. In using it I have found that ergonomically it isnt the easiest thing to get used to. It is somewhat cumbersome due to its size, but we chose the bullard due to the durability of the unit (our sales rep came in and threw his camera across the floor and nothing happened), and the thermal throttle on the TIx was an option we liked. We recently used the camera in during live burn training and found it to be quite easy to manage. My personal preference at order time was the T3 because of the size and the ability to put it on a retractable cord on our turnout gear and not have it hanging from our necks.
    If we decide that we need another TIC in the future it will end up being one of the smaller cameras, such as the T3 or T3max, but it will most likely be a Bullard.
    Shawn M. Cecula
    Firefighter
    IACOJ Division of Fire and EMS

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    but we chose the bullard due to the durability of the unit (our sales rep came in and threw his camera across the floor and nothing happened
    Funny you mention that, company near me is on their 3rd due to it needing replacement from getting damaged at calls. Oh well, guess everyone can have a bad one now and then. NJ offered bullards to all companies that wanted them or $6000 in cash. Was a great program to get at least 1 TIC for each department. We had an Argus at the time (still do) so we took the cash.

    Good luck in your search.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    13 of the 20 largest cities in the USA have chosen Bullard: samples include (in no particular order): Chicago, Boston, Los Angeles, Indianapolis, San Francisco, San Antonio, Jacksonville, Phoenix, Memphis.
    So far the only place I have seen a Bullard in our Dept is at training. I'm not saying they're not out there, just that the majority of our TIC's are Scott's. At least at this time, of all the ones I have seen in the field. But, the way SAFD works is usually a phasing in process, so they may be ordering those from now on for all I know.

    I don't get much time using the TIC, our trucks carry them with the exception of Rescue and DC's and maybe a few other units I'm forgeting. The Scott's seem to work fine from my experience with them. What I have found is that it's usually better to wear the thing like a purse (strap over shoulder and/or neck) vs. just wearring it over the neck like a camera. If you just put that thing over your neck and spend a lot of time inside it usually starts getting heavy, and litteraly becomes "a pain in the neck".

    Anyway, I'm sure there are some better units out there than what we have. And, every dept has different needs.
    http://www.sanantoniofire.org

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    Motor, is yours the bulky old Scott Eagle? Those are some brutish looking TICs, a realy heavy piece of hardware!

    No wonder it would be a pain in the neck.
    -Brotherhood: I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.
    -Mistakes: It could be that the purpose of you life is to serve as a warning to others.

    -Adversity: That which does not kill me postpones the inevitable.

    -Despair: Its always darkest before it goes Pitch Black.

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    We just had TIC training from a company out of NY. All of the major vendors recommended them. He taught us things that no vendor/salesman could have shown. We have Scott Eagle I (bricks on a stick). The owner of the company sais they ( recue 3 fdny) use an Argus 2. Anyway, these guys said the would help you in the pre-purchase. It would definetly be worth the money to have them come in after the purchase. He is he link --www.safe-ir.com

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    We use the Scott Eagle Imager 2. I like the way you can crawl with it and sweep the area ahead of you. I've used the big Bullards a couple of times at the academy; I HATED them! Talk about a sore wrist! They were the most awkward things I've ever used.

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    Default Not that bad

    Samson,As a Dept. with two Scott Eagle 1's I can attest that properly slung over the shoulder they are a user friendly machine that certainly won't wear you out.Changing the battery with gloves on is a major PITA however.Thermal throttle can take some getting used to but we have had NO issues with either of the cameras either in use or training ease.Wouldn't be my first choice out of the box but the adjustable screen head and the picture resolution are both decent.In less than five years you're going to see some radical changes in TI's.Watch for traffic from JB,he's on the inside loop.T.C.

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    Motor, is yours the bulky old Scott Eagle? Those are some brutish looking TICs, a realy heavy piece of hardware!
    Yes, I would have to say that the majority (because I don't know what everyone has for sure) are the Scott Eagles. I think the Dept bought the majority of our TIC's around 98-00 range. Something like that anyway. I don't know for sure that everyone out there has them, just that all the ones I have seen on calls have been the older Eagles. Knowing my Dept, I would say that most have eagles. But, they may be phasing in some new ones by now. The old Eagle is OK, does it's job so I can't say too many bad things about it. It's a brick though... I will say that.

    My Dept will usually buy a small number of some type of product and pick a CO. to try it out. For instance, there is a CO. in my dept (somewhere) that is trying the new NxG2's. Unfortunatly I don't know which one it is or I would go by and check em out. The thing about a large Dept is that the majority of the members are "removed" from the purchasing process when it comes to trying/testing new equipment... so we usually don't even see it until they say, "here it is." In my older (smaller) Dept's we had a say in what got bought.. here we have a small equipment "commity" that does it. I can't complain though, I would imagine I could get on the commity if I wanted to. Too busy with the youngun's at home right now when I'm not workin'.
    http://www.sanantoniofire.org

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    Originally posted by ThNozzleman
    Talk about a sore wrist! They were the most awkward things I've ever used.
    My personal preference is to use the side strap...I find it balances the weight perfectly, and makes it easier for crawling.

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    Default Fire Flir FF110 Battery

    Does any body know were you can buy 2- batteries for a Fire Flir FF110?

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