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    Default How will the fire service "defend" against this?

    Al Qaida commander 'anticipates' 100,000 Americans dead in attack

    Special to World Tribune.com
    MIDDLE EAST MEDIA RESEARCH INSTITUTE
    Thursday, November 13, 2003
    Al-Qal'a (The Fortress) an Islamist Internet forum, posted the first of a two-part interview with a person who introduced himself as Abu Salma Al-Hijazi, one of the Al Qaida commanders closest to Osama bin Laden.(1) The interview was conducted in Iraq, south of Faluja. The article notes that Al-Hijazi was surrounded by five masked men carrying missiles as well as personal weapons. The following are excerpts from the interview:

    In regard to rumors about a large-scale attack against the U.S. during the month of Ramadan, Al-Hijazi said that "a huge and very courageous strike" will take place and that the number of infidels expected to be killed in this attack, according to primary estimates, exceeds 100,000. He added that he "anticipates, but will not swear, that the attack will happen during Ramadan."

    He further stated that the attack will be carried out in a way that will "amaze the world and turn Al Qaida into [an organization that] horrifies the world until the law of Allah is implemented, actually implemented, and not just in words, on His land... You wait and see that the balance of power between Al Qaida and its rivals will change, all of a sudden, Allah willing."

    Regarding Al Qaida detainees, Al-Hijazi said: "We follow their situation closely... the collaborating governments will pay the price for capturing these heroes who want to revive the glory of their nation and shake off the dust of humiliation and disgrace."
    Al-Hijazi added that the "collaborating and treacherous" governments should know that Al Qaida has a long reach and its members enjoy popularity that will not end just because apostate governments detain hundreds of Al Qaida's members. "As soon as the governments detain one of our people, ten like him join us... this is no secret."

    Al-Hijazi said that Al Qaida instructed its members not to confront the governments of Islamic countries and clarified that Americans are the main target of the organization, wherever they may be, in order to cause their disintegration and collapse, even if it takes a long time. "We are patient," he added, "our patience will only end with the collapse of America and its agents."

    Al-Hijazi also said: "There is no doubt that the demise of America and its collapse will lead to the collapse of these fragile regimes that depend on it... We will not stop until we establish the Islamic Caliphate and until Allah's law is implemented in His land."

    When asked about the recent bombing in Riyadh, Al-Hijazi referred to Saudi media reports — which claimed that in the attack Muslim women and children were killed — as "merely media deceit." He added: "This place was under surveillance for many months. Following a thorough investigation, it became perfectly clear to us that the people living there were at least 300 Americans and a large group of Lebanese Christians who had tortured Muslims there, in Lebanon, during the civil war. After consultation, we decided it was appropriate to attack this place and destroy it, including the people who lived there, because it housed Americans and a large majority of Christians holding Lebanese citizenship.

    "Since the Saudi government is aware of the sensitivity of this place and that it is a declared target for Al Qaida, it surrounded it with very heavy security. However, we gave our people in Riyadh a green light to destroy it on top of those inside. Allah facilitated breaking into the place and bombing the part in which mostly Americans stayed. As a result, praise Allah, at least 40 Americans were killed, as well as 27 Christians from Lebanon, and a group of citizens who were Muslim; also, at least 70 Americans were injured, as well as more than 30 citizens of other countries, most of them Christians from Lebanon."

    According to Al-Hijazi, a Saudi religious scholar who is wanted by Saudi authorities will claim responsibility in a televised communiqué for the bombing "and for other operations to come." He added that the wills of the attackers will be published, apparently, in the month of Shawwal — the month following Ramadan according to the Muslim calendar - when Al Qaida's main website, Al-Nida, is due to be reactivated.

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    Hmmm what target could there be during Ramadan that would cause that many casualties. Only thing I can come up with is something like the Macys Thanksgiving Parade. What do ya'll think.
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    When asked about the recent bombing in Riyadh, Al-Hijazi referred to Saudi media reports — which claimed that in the attack Muslim women and children were killed — as "merely media deceit."
    Next paragraph please,

    As a result, praise Allah, at least 40 Americans were killed, as well as 27 Christians from Lebanon, and a group of citizens who were Muslim
    Ya PLONKER.

    _________________________________
    Six rules of Jihad:

    1 - Intention of the Jihad is for the sake of Allah (Ta'aala), not for the sake of wealth, goods, fame, glory or power.

    "Whoever fights in order that the Word of Allah should
    be highest, he is in the Path of Allah."
    [Muslim, Abu Dawud, Tirmidhi,
    Ibn Majah, Ahmad]

    2 - Obedience to the Imam.

    3 - Avoiding misappropriation (ghulul) of the booty.

    4 - Respecting pledges of protection.

    5 - Endurance under attack:

    "O Mankind! Do not wish for an encounter with the enemy,
    and ask Allah for well-being, but when you encounter them be steadfast."
    [Bukhari, Muslim]

    6 - Avoidance of corruption.

    The Jihad that is fought when the Muslims are under their own Islamic State is intended to facilitate the spread of Islam, and so it is not permissible to kill anyone who is not impeding the spread of the Religion. Thus,

    - People must be invited to Islam before they can be fought.

    - It is not permissible to intentionally kill non-combatants (including women, children, old men and monks) unless they are conspirators.

    "And fight, in the Path of Allah, those who fight you,
    and do not transgress limits."
    [Qur'an, 2:190]

    - It is not permissible to destroy property, kill animals, cut down trees or burn dwellings, except in cases of necessity, in which case these things may be done to the extent necessary to remove the barriers to Da'wah.

    "And when he is in power, he strives to cause wholesale corruption
    in the land, and to destroy crops and annihilate generations. And Allah does not love corruption."
    [Qur'an, 2:205]

    - It is not permissible to plunder, nor to mutilate those killed.

    "The Messenger of Allah forbade plundering and mutilation."
    [Bukhari]

    - It is not permissible to continue fighting after the opposition has surrendered.

    "And if they incline towards peace then incline (you also) towards it."
    [Qur'an, 8:61]
    ____________________________________

    The above is taken from an Islamic based web site, it is expressed time and again throughout the Qur'an and on many Islamic web sites.

    Which part didn't you understand? The bit about Non-Combatants, or was it the part about Buildings or trees?

    Maybe it was the bit about Plunder or Mutilate.

    Go search the Qur'an a bit more Matey, you will find bulk references to the fact that "The biggest Jihad a man faces is the war against evil within himself."

    Go think about that for 20 or 30 years, then get back to us.
    Psychiatrists state 1 in 4 people has a mental illness.
    Look at three of your friends, if they are ok, your it.

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    This sort of thing scares me from the point of view that these "fanaticals" (For want of a better word) ar willing to try this and I beleive will continue for as long as they think their cause is worthwhile, regardless of the consequences
    Luke

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    12Truck.

    Why go giving them ideas?
    Psychiatrists state 1 in 4 people has a mental illness.
    Look at three of your friends, if they are ok, your it.

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    giving them ideas or giving us something to think about and consider. If they plan on having that many casualties it helps to know what event would take place during that time and take appropriate measures to defend against it.
    After I'm dead I'd rather have people ask why I have no monument than why I have one

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    Originally posted by 12TruckIrons
    giving them ideas or giving us something to think about and consider. If they plan on having that many casualties it helps to know what event would take place during that time and take appropriate measures to defend against it.
    That's my question. Some on here think that the fire service is involved in homeland security. How will the fire service "defend" (prevent) this?

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    George

    As you well know, the Fire Service is NOT the department to defend against this type of action, at this level it is all we can do to respond adequately.

    Prevention is the balliwic of other departments prior to the event, with a small focus of input from the Fire Service.

    There is not a heck of a lot we as FF's can do to either prevent or defend against terrorist actions that would not require a dramatic refocus in most departments, and require fiscal support.

    That money would have to come from the Government of any country, and would simply be a drain on rescources that could be better used by departments already established.

    As long as the intelligence cell has available resouces from the Fire Service for planning and co-ordination, as well as intelligence sharing between departments, we are doing our jobs.

    The best bet is being prepared to do our jobs, and letting others do theirs.
    Psychiatrists state 1 in 4 people has a mental illness.
    Look at three of your friends, if they are ok, your it.

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    Some rinky-dink local police department isn't going to defend against it either, nor the county cops, or the state police. Homeland Security is a Federal responsibility, ie- Military, FBI, ATF, Treasury Department, Postal Inspectors, and the likes. Grant it, every once in a while, a local juristiction gets a little limelight for stumbling on a "plot". But then again, even a blind squirrel finds a nut.
    Face it, Georges vaunted police department, nor my fire department has anything to do with homeland security. We, both police and fire, are re-active. the only defending we will be doing is at the discretion of the Feds.
    My posts reflect my views and opinions, not the organization I work for or my IAFF local. Some of which they may not agree. I.A.C.O.J. member
    "I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
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    Kiwi:
    I am guessing that the target of this attack was selected many months ago and the groups have been training ever since.
    Maybe it's time for the U.S. to turn it up a notch or two; maybe launch a pre-emptive strike.
    I think our troop strength in Iraq is around 135,000. Maybe the spokesperson was, in some twisted sense, referring to the troops still in Iraq. It's hard to comprehend what these bad guys are thinking.
    Perhaps we should go to "orange".
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    Terrorist fires missle at building...building catches fire...people are hurt and possibly dying...firefighters attack fire...prevent it from spreading to exposures, further injuring or killing people...firefighters help wounded, saving more lives. Defense, plain and simple.
    Friends, this little thread was personal stab at me. Give it up, George; you're being a jerk.

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    I am not so sure I agree .......what is your basis for these comments Robert ?
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    Don't take it personally Nozzleman. George certainly would not condone a personal attack, unless your name is Bill Clinton. Remember George?



    Some on here think that the fire service is involved in homeland security. How will the fire service "defend" (prevent) this?


    Guilty as charged. Since when are "defend" and "prevent" synonomous?

    The DHS is responsible for more than preventing terrorism. They are also charged with response after the fact. Personally I think putting that many people in one department is asking for beaurocratic overload.

    I recently attended hazardous materials training that involved a large number of LE officers who are being trained to the technician
    level. Why you ask would we want cops in level A suits? Beats me, but you know what, LE holds the DHS purse strings. The LE officer in charge of the team admitted to me that they are receiving money that should be going to the fire service.
    Last edited by Duffman; 11-13-2003 at 11:27 PM.
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    I am not so sure I agree .......what is your basis for these comments Robert ?
    Eh? The whole other thread where we've been hashing this very issue out.
    That's my question. Some on here think that the fire service is involved in homeland security. How will the fire service "defend" (prevent) this?
    This was plainly aimed at me. George had to go and start another thread, looking for validation of his opinion from the other users here, I suppose. My point has always been that defense of our nation goes on before, during, and after an attack. George seems to think that we (the firefighters) don't have anything to do with defense, prevention, or security. I personally think that we do, of course, along with a great number of people in the government and across the nation. It seems to me that George thinks that defense, prevention, and security is a "cop" thing. I prefer to take a broader view of the notion, because I know that it includes more than just the military or law enforcement. Any measure taken by any agency to prepare or better respond to an attack or other national emergency is part of our defense. We are part of a system that minimizes damage to property and injury to people, making it prevention. All this makes our country and the people living in it more secure, resulting in security. Pretty straight-forward, to me.

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    Don't take it personally Nozzleman.
    Oh, I don't. I find his narrow-mindedness on many issues quite entertaining.

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    George,

    I thought this issue was discussed and we found some small portion of middle ground?

    Apparently not...We'll address it again...

    You say to-ma-to I saw to-mah-toh. I think your game of playing semantics is getting old and it lacks much merit if any at all. It seems I'm not the only one with this view either.

    Prevention and defense are two different terms altogether.

    How come the DHS is providing grants for funding the IAFF Haz-Mat classes for local Firefighters??? Perhaps they don't share your view George.

    The Police prevent...while the Fire Dept defends. The police attempt to prevent crime...while the Fire Dept defends against the city burning down. All one has to do is look to the failure of police depts in prevention and control of crime and what it led to in the 60s and 70s in our major cities...meanwhile thanks to the Fire Departments we still have major cities today as they kept most of them from being leveled by conflagarations.

    The firemen in Great Britain did little to "prevent" the Germans from bombing them during WWII, however they served in the "defense" of their country by saving lives and preventing the spread of the fires. I ask you was this not critical to their defense? If the Firemen of the London Fire Brigade had allowed those buildings to burn unchecked even as the bombs continued to fall wouldn't that also have served the desires of the Nazi's? Not being able to properly deal with any attack and to let it spiral out of control would only further the enemey's goals. Would it not George?

    The US Government has ambasadors and other dignitaries that constantly work all the diplomatic channels to foward our national concerns and maintain peace even in the face of disagreements with our enemies. They are to "Prevent" issues from becoming all out wars. However sometimes these channels fail, Geroge. It is then in the cause for the defense of our nation that the military is called into action. Just because when we are at peace time doesn't mean we don't have to adequately fund and properly equip a well trained military. Same with the Fire Service.

    How did the Military, FBI, CIA & local Police Depts "defend" us against the WTC-Bombing, OK City, 9-11, Anthrax attacks???? They didn't George. They didn't. They might have tried to "Prevent" an attack, however because they are not equiped, trained or really even responsible for it they are not there to defend or mitigate against an attack. Did the local cops try to use thier service pistols to shoot down the planes...I think not.

    This is what they did...
    -Military-showed up too late to stop any further attacks.
    -FBI-CIA-INS etc...-They dropped the ball after they had their chance.
    -And the local Police Depts? Well they did little more than traffic control. This is a critical service as it limits those exposed and enables the Fire Service to do its work "defending" against even futher death and damage wrought upon us by our enemies. (this is not to take anything away from the few cops that did loose their lives on 9-11 however my point is the big picture of Law Enforcement involvement at all those incidents, not just WTC on 9-11.)

    Who had to shoulder the reponsibility of dealing with these colosal failures of Geroge's esteemed Law Enforcement community??? Thats right George... The Fire Departments. The same ones you it would seem like to underfund and ill-equip. (For what reason I can't imagine)

    We are the last line of defense because if we don't stem the damage from the next failure of your infailiable Law Enforcement community...who will George. Who will step up? The Fire Marshalls office of Flanders, NJ??? Perhaps you could write the terrorists a violation from failure to have proper Haz-Mat permits?

    I haven't seen ANYONE on here say that we shouldn't fund the law enforcement side so that they can try to prevent another attack. However there are many different lessons in many disiplines that speak to the practice of not placing all ones eggs in the same basket. It seems George you are the only one who would rather fund only one side of the equasion with federal dollars.

    As for how the Fire Service is going to defend against the next attack. Well I can't speak for the whole service but I know that there are many members of my Dept who are dealing with how we will deal with the next failure of those responsible for "Prevention" and according to you "Defense" of my city.

    FTM-PTB
    Last edited by FFFRED; 11-14-2003 at 12:29 AM.

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    Big talking locker room BS. Ignore it.

    The Army will keep on with killin' the surviving stragglers when they stick their heads out of their holes in the ground.

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    Nozzleman, you aren't the only one to have been down this road with George before. Given his fondness of the Bush administration I am surprised he does not recognize the fire service role in the new DHS as designed by King George the W.

    FFFRED, I think you took it a little far with this one.
    -And the local Police Depts? Well they did little more than traffic control.
    I think if you stop and think for a minute you will realize that statement is false.

    That said, I think we have demonstrated sufficiently the role of the fire service in homeland security.
    "We shouldn't be opening firehouses in Baghdad and closing them in New York City."

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    Thanks for the comments. I will try to address some of the highlights.

    1. I did not post this as a "jab" at anyone. What I usually do is post things like this to provoke thought and stimulate debate. It looks like I have been moderately succesful.

    2. If you look at your Life Safety 101 text, the safest, most sure approach to life safety is to prevent the fire. That is the surest way of guarateeing life safety. You all know that it has been my position for a long time that most fire departments completely neglect fire prevention in favor of "defending" against the fire after it occurs, after it defeats the systems and after it has caused a considerable amount of damage.

    The prevention of terrorism is certainly not the sole responsibility of a rinky dink police department. But it is the primary focus of a large segment of the military, intelligence community, state, county and local law enforcement, working otgether. (Imagine if a FD dumped that much effort into fire prevention?). If you follow the model of life safety, prevention of terrorism is the most important area we can concentrate on.

    Contrary to some posts, in a previous thread a while back, people DID say that law enforcement was getting too much money and some of it shoulod be diverted to the fire service because they did as much as law enforcement in terms of homeland security

    3. Security is defined as follows:
    1. Freedom from risk or danger; safety.
    2. Freedom from doubt, anxiety, or fear; confidence.
    3. Something that gives or assures safety, as:
    A group or department of private guards: Call building security if a visitor acts suspicious.
    Measures adopted by a government to prevent espionage, sabotage, or attack.
    Measures adopted, as by a business or homeowner, to prevent a crime such as burglary or assault: Security was lax at the firm's smaller plant.

    IT simply doesn't say anything about picking up the pieces after the incident occurs.

    4. People keep citing 9-11, OK City etc. as law enforcement failures. You are right to a point. They were failures in the system. (The FD loses buildings, too). But, there are dozens of documented instances when the aggressiveness of the law enforcement community has prevented terrorist attacks large and small.

    As of 9-11, a new culture was necessittaed in law enforcement. It as no longer business as usual. We are learning a new game-counterterrorism. As we learn and get better, the successes will be greater.

    5. I am a certified Hazardous Materials Technician and a Weapons of Mass Destruction Technician. I got these certs as a LEO, not a FF. I received these certs in order to respond to incidents, but also to execute search warrants and conduct inspections of suspicious circumstances that serve to prevent a terrorist attack.

    If the LEO actually told you that the money his agency received for counterterrorism activities should be going to the fire service, he didn't belong there. He does not understand the mission.

    6. If you truly believe that the primary function of LE on 9-11 was traffic control, you obviously watched this on TV and were nowhere near the action. They did much, much more. Also, I have been a FF longer than I have been a LEO. Please find the post where I said that the fire service should be underfunded and ill-equipped? BTW, the FBI-CIA et al "dropped the ball" because they were not permitted to pull the trigger by your esteemed leader, Bill Clinton.

    7. Which leads me to...I will take a personal shot at CLinton each and every time the opportunity is presented to me. And I will do it with facts and not emotion.

    8. I would have to agree that the DFS is probably ill-conceived and combines agencies with roles so divergent that it will never work as intended.

    Let's keep this debate civil and have a good exchange of ideas. We all might learn something.

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    IT simply doesn't say anything about picking up the pieces after the incident occurs.
    So, that's all the fire department does, huh? "Pick up the pieces?" Give me a break.
    1. Freedom from risk or danger; safety.
    2. Freedom from doubt, anxiety, or fear; confidence.
    3. Something that gives or assures safety
    Yep; sounds like the fire department to me.

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    In response to George:

    1. The dictionary definition of security does not apply here. It does not matter how Webster's et al define security. The issue is wether or not the fire service defends against terrorism. I repeat: prevention is nont synonomous with defense. FEMA, and therefore the USFA, are part of the DHS.

    2. Fighting terrorism is certainly not the primary focus of local law enforcement. I know plenty of LEOs from many communities. I assure you that their primary focus is not on terrorism. It sounds good on paper or in sound bites, but it simply is not the case among the rank and file.



    will take a personal shot at CLinton each and every time the opportunity is presented to me. And I will do it with facts and not emotion.

    George I can't believe you posted that. You know for a fact you let emotion get in the way of fact. Certainly you remember calling Clinton a rapist. Where are the facts. Articles in right wing funded journals whose editors paid members of the Arkansas state police for their story are not facts. He was never charged with rape. You may believe he raped someone, but that doesn't make it so.

    Lastly, we indeed have found common ground on the DHS. It will never work as it exists today. It was a knee-jerk response to make the public feel secure.
    "We shouldn't be opening firehouses in Baghdad and closing them in New York City."

    IACOJ

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    George I can't believe you posted that. You know for a fact you let emotion get in the way of fact. Certainly you remember calling Clinton a rapist. Where are the facts. Articles in right wing funded journals whose editors paid members of the Arkansas state police for their story are not facts. He was never charged with rape. You may believe he raped someone, but that doesn't make it so.
    Transcripts from judicial proceedings are not right wing propaaganda.
    I repeat: prevention is nont synonomous with defense.
    I guess we will have to agree to diagree on this point.
    Fighting terrorism is certainly not the primary focus of local law enforcement. I know plenty of LEOs from many communities. I assure you that their primary focus is not on terrorism. It sounds good on paper or in sound bites, but it simply is not the case among the rank and file.
    I am the rank and file. Certainly not every patrolman is assigned counter terrorism duties. But each department has accepted counter terrorism work as part of their mission. I just spent the first hour and fifteen minutes of my work day weeding through intelligence briefing sheets and reports issued by federal agencies regarding terrorist activities worldwide. It is now part of my job to assist in disseminating this info to the other members of my office and the other county PD's. We do take this seriously and we do put a tremendous amount of effort into it. We are by no stretch of the imagine special or unique in this regard.
    Lastly, we indeed have found common ground on the DHS. It will never work as it exists today. It was a knee-jerk response to make the public feel secure.
    Yes, we certainly agree on this.
    So, that's all the fire department does, huh? "Pick up the pieces?" Give me a break.
    This is meant in the figurative sense, not the literal sense. If you would like, I can edit it and change some of the wording.
    Yep; sounds like the fire department to me.
    No it doesn't. "Freedom", in this sense, means that the incident will not happen.

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    Originally posted by ThNozzleman
    Terrorist fires missle at building...building catches fire...people are hurt and possibly dying...firefighters attack fire...prevent it from spreading to exposures, further injuring or killing people...firefighters help wounded, saving more lives. Defense, plain and simple.
    Well, here is my take on this, for what it is worth. In the above quote, you have pointed out that firefighters will do nothing more than their everyday job of fighting fire and protecting exposures. The Fire Service, IMHO, can do nothing to prevent OR defend against terrorism. The only thing we are equipped to do is minimize the damage that occurs from terrorist acts.

    For example, on Sept. 11, the FDNY performed firefighting tasks, albeit heroic tasks. But the bottom line is that they did nothing to prevent or defend the act, but rather tried to minimize the damage. Terrorism is a much greater thing than we give it credit for, and it can really only be handled by a large agency, such as the military and FBI and related organizations.

    So, what if we did know where the next strike would be? What if we did know the act that would be performed. Aside from evacuation (if we knew the exact date), what could the Fire Service do to prevent, or perhaps defend, the act?

    Just my 2¢.

  24. #24
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    >>> "I just spent the first hour and fifteen minutes of my work day weeding through intelligence briefing sheets and reports issued by federal agencies regarding terrorist activities worldwide. It is now part of my job to assist in disseminating this info to the other members of my office and the other county PD's." <<<

    Well if reading an intelligence briefing sheet and then reviewing it with subordinates is "defending against terrorism" then I guess I am doing that as a FF. All shift commanders recieve regular briefing sheets that are sent out by the FBI to departments in my area and then distributed down the chain of command. We have been doing this prior to 9/11.

  25. #25
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    For example, on Sept. 11, the FDNY performed firefighting tasks, albeit heroic tasks. But the bottom line is that they did nothing to prevent or defend the act, but rather tried to minimize the damage.
    They saved lives and prevented further property loss. They DEFENDED these people and their property from further harm caused by the terrorist attack. The attack did not end when the planes hit the building. When the plane hit the Pentagon, firefighters responded and DEFENDED the building from further damage. No firefighters, no defense against the flames and destruction. The end result would have been equal to hundreds of planes striking the building; complete and utter destruction of the building and most everything in it.

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