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  1. #1
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    Default Seagrave, Caterpillar, and Cummins

    http://www.seagrave.com/About_Us/News/Press/110703.html

    Anybody have any thoughts on this? It looks like Seagrave will no longer be offering Detroit Diesel engines in their products. My assumption is that DD is the leading engine manufacturer of diesel engines, so is this a smart strategy?


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    Hmmmmm! DD is owned by Freightliner. Jim Hebe almost put Freightliner out of business. Jim Hebe is now president of Seagrave. Sounds like a good strategy to me.

    By the way, if you look at the heavy duty truck market Cat is the leading producer of diesels. Don't know about small and medium duty markets.

  3. #3
    Forum Member Rescue101's Avatar
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    Depends who you talk to or whos figures you use.Class 8 market is pretty evenly split between the three.Big Cats are hard to beat until they break then get out your wallet.Cummins are probably the next most expensive to fix,then DDA.All will do a million as long as you do proper maintaince.I've run Cats and Big block Cummins and dabbled with a couple Detroits.For "linehaul"operations the Cats and Cummins seem to outpull the Detroits.For Fire service Apps I'm not sure the same rules apply.In the early years you couldn't beat a Detroit for Fire service 'cause they're the only ones that liked the cold start/wide open throttle that the Fire service was famous for.Today the rules have changed some.T.C.

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    It all comes down to cat and cummins if you want a great diesel.
    And if it comes down to price cummins wins .

    the best diesel overall in the market today is cummins hands down (IMO)

  5. #5
    Forum Member Rescue101's Avatar
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    Spoken by a guy who drives a Chevrolet!HeHe!They're all good when they work,boat anchors when they don't.Each has it's own good and bad points.I like a Cummins,but if it's raw power you want you would be hard pressed to beat the Big Kitty.Cummins has some nice big HP offerings too and DON'T count DDA out.They are constantly improving their product line.T.C.

  6. #6
    Forum Member Fire304's Avatar
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    Detriot is owned by DaimlerChrysler (who also owns Freightliner)and they are marketing a series of Mercedes engines under the Detroit tag (MBE series). How much longer before we see a Dodge Ram pickup with a Detroit under the hood? GRRRrrrr...

    I wish that Yanmar would start building over-the-road engines, there are several they make for construction equipment and for boats that are light, powerful, and can be passed via your estate to the grandchildren. I worked as a Yanmar mechanic at a boat yard for a couple of years and in that time only saw 2 warrenty jobs come in, one was a crimped exhaust gasket from the boat factory (even though Yanmar was not responsible they picked up the tab), they other a bad fuel lift pump on a 15 year old engine (design flaw, Yanmar replaced it).

    I find that locally Cat has better service, Cummins is hard to find parts for (had to drive to Boston once for an exhaust clamp) and local service is, well if you don't have anything nice to say...
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  7. #7
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    Cool

    Some interesting reading in this site. Seems like Detroit isn't going to take this lying down.

    http://www.detroitdiesel.com/public/...res/6sa584.pdf

    I'm also curious as to what Seagrave's major customers are using for engines. Mainly New York, LA, DC? It seems that once a fleet maintenance department gets trained and set up for one make of engine, they really put up a fight changing.

  8. #8
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    F.D.N.Y. = Detroit
    D.C.F.D. = Detroit
    L.A.F.D. = Running both Detroit and Cat now with latest orders from Pierce and Seagrave. Just some thoughts.

    Stay low and move it in.
    Stay low and move it in.

    Be safe.


    Larry

  9. #9
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    Default

    Didn't LAFD run exclusively Cummins diesels for decades? With manual transmissions on their engines as well!

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    I know LA County use to be manual transmission. then they switched to all automatics and Cat Motors, and as far as Detroit, very very good motor, just put it in our new quint and runs like a charm, got just over 6,000 miles on it and works awesome every time we go out. as for cummins, they don't want to know you after your warrenty runs out, forget it, i would not put a cummins in my worst enemy's truck, i think cat and detroit are almost equal, both good motors, both work horse's and both dependable.

  11. #11
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    I spoke to my Seagrave salesman about this and he said Seagrave is still going to offer the Detroit after they comply with the new emissions standards. He told me you can still get the Series 60 430 hp on a Seagrave b/c that is the only one that passes the emissions standard.

  12. #12
    Forum Member Dave1983's Avatar
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    Have used all three over my 20 years. Have nothing good to say about Cat's. We had two in older pumpers and had blown head gaskets on both.

    We have three stations and run a 2001 heavy rescue, a 2002 75' ladder and a 2002 pumper. Two have Cummins and one has a Detroit. No problems.

    The only complaint is the vibration with the Cummins. It's the same on the new ones as on a 1990 pumper we used to have. One was an FMC, one is a Pierce and the other an EVI. Different builders but same problem so I guess it's the motors.

    The Detroits have been fantastic. We have a reserve pumper with 89k miles, another with 104k and the ladder we sold last year had 114k. Never any major break downs.

    We only buy from Pierce (except for the rescue which was a special order that Pierce couldnt fill)so I guess it wont be an issue here.

    Dave

  13. #13
    Forum Member Rescue101's Avatar
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    Dave,What size were your Cats?This is NOT a common problem except in a couple versions with high hours/or extreme conditions.As far as the reply to the Detroits only being approved to 430 hp,they are good to 515 hp.In 2004 you will probably see those numbers approach 600 hp.T.C.

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    Forum Member Dave1983's Avatar
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    It's been a long time, but I think the Cat's in question are model 3208. To be honest to Cat, It's been years and the new models may be better.

    Dave

  15. #15
    Forum Member Rescue101's Avatar
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    Default Oh,half a cats

    Thanks I suspected as much.That was a known issue on that motor,but one that's relatively easy to repair.The 1160/3208 is not what I consider a "true" Cat motor,They were developed in the early years as a "joint"venture between Ford and Cat,These engines were developed primarily as an economical diesel for the parcel industry,Since then they have been "pumped up" and used in applications for which they were not originally intended.In marine versions they now have Hps approching 550 from their original 200 hp.Matter of fact I just had to replace the Head gasket on my 1160,takes about five hours.As these motors age they are more apt to lose this gasket.Cat no longer produces this motor for our use in the Fire service,it has been replaced by the 3126 or C9.T.C.

  16. #16
    Forum Member Fire304's Avatar
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    Thanks for the background on the 3208 Rescue 101, I always wondered why they were such short lived engines. Lobstermen love them because they are so cheap, use it for 10,000 hours and toss em. As I recall you can get a long block for about $5000 and a short for as little as $2500. While I was working as a boat mechanic we used to call the 425hp 3208 the "big yellow hand grenade" as they had a habit of coming unglued in spectacular ways. One of my oil trucks has one and its on its last season, at least the fuel injection system needs to be gone over next summer.

    I just checked out Cat's website and they don't even acknowlege that the 3208 ever existed except in the used engine links. Hehehe.

    I've worked on and driven three 3126's and a 3116 both solid engines, the 26's don't smoke at all, the electronic fuel injection is very accurate and efficient. Nice engine for lighter trucks.
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  17. #17
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    The C-12 is also used for the fire service. We have a 1998 C-12 with 425 HP / 1650 ft/lbs. torque and have had great luck with it. At the time, it had more torque to HP than the
    Detroit ( 430 HP / 1550 torque ) and was lighter in weight.

  18. #18
    Forum Member Rescue101's Avatar
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    The 1160/3208 was NEVER designed for Fire Service operations although a good number of them have performed admirably for us.It's interesting to note that a number of engines that started out life as 2-300 hp have been "juiced up"for the fire service with hps approaching 500.I will list several of these "potential"grenades.8v92 Detroit(began life as the 8V71N)at 318 hp,in the 8V92TT config eventually put out over 500 hp.3208 in marine config upwards of 500 from 200(Scary).DT466 International started at 210 is now approaching 400.Cummins 230-250 now over 600Hp.Now we need new engines and there is now a big enough market for the engine builders to build a whole new series of engines that are/will be engineered expressly for the Fire service,It will be rocky for a bit while they work the bugs out of the new control systems but what a ride we're going to be in for once it's done.Some truly tremendous offerings available now with more just around the corner.T.C.

  19. #19
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    Great posts by all who replied. Glad to see this never got into a brand v/s brand argument. All of the info was very accurate as far as I am aware. I am a former heavy diesel master mech before becoming a Firefighter. I still "moonlight" as a diesel mech to keep my skills sharp. Just to throw one last comment in. I think it is a travesty that Mack got out of the fire svc. Yeah I know Volvo owns them, but it's better than being out of business, and their quality still seems very good.
    Rescue 101 Can you elaborate on the future high h/p engines some more. I have not heard any rumors from reliable sources on this, just sales men talking big.

  20. #20
    Forum Member Rescue101's Avatar
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    Only in generalities.Building emergency vehicles has become "big"business.Consequently the engine builders all want a piece of /or preferably the whole;pie.As the vehicles get bigger and bigger so do their hp appetites(sp?).Just look at recent past history to see the "Fire service"version of almost any engine you want,compare it to the "standard"engine.See what I mean.They've got to do a million in linehaul but they'll never see it in emergency services.So let's "juice"'em up and make more power;also a little less reliability.T.C.

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