1. #1
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    Question Hero? Or something else?

    PAWTUCKET, R.I. (AP) - Amid the chaos of a roaring mill fire
    that was ravaging houses around him, firefighter Felix Ramos stood
    his ground alone for nearly three hours. He was intent on one
    thing: saving the Kenyon Street house of a man he'd never met.
    It wasn't until the next day, after he'd been treated for an eye
    injury and smoke inhalation, that the 22-year veteran got scared.
    "If I had fallen there in the dark, I could have lost my
    life," he told The Associated Press on Thursday. "But I didn't
    want to leave that house."
    The Nov. 14 Greenhalgh Mills fire was one of the worst in the
    city's history. No lives were lost but the wind-swept blaze caused
    an estimated $3 million in damage to 17 properties. At least eight
    homes were destroyed.
    The house at 82 Kenyon St. still stands, despite heavy damage to
    neighbors' houses on either side. Fire Department officials credit
    Ramos with saving the property.
    "He just totally committed himself to saving one property,"
    Pawtucket firefighter Scott Gagan said. "He started on one house
    and he made ... sure that this one person was not going to be
    homeless."
    Ramos, 55, randomly picked Earl Cook's house.
    Ramos was on one the first fire trucks to arrive at the mill
    fire at mid-afternoon. The houses on Kenyon Street, which runs
    along one side of the mill complex, were not yet on fire. But
    burning embers were falling in many back yards and on garages.
    "There were people out with their garden hoses - we knew that
    was going to be the path of the fire," he said.
    His two partners took one fire hose and went to one yard. Ramos
    took another and went next door to 82 Kenyon St.
    The garage was already on fire, so Ramos went to work knocking
    down the flames enough so they didn't spread to the house and
    beyond.
    After about an hour, a burning ember injured his left eye but he
    never radioed for assistance.
    "Communication wasn't good, everything was in chaos, I didn't
    even know where I was," he said.
    Ramos poured water on the garage and house despite having
    increasing difficulty breathing due to smoke inhalation. He
    periodically used a pickup truck parked in the driveway to shield
    himself from the intense heat and help him bear the weight of the
    hose, which got heavier the longer he held it.
    "I was going to stay there till the end," he said.
    When Ramos finally suppressed the fire in the rear of the house
    he moved to the front, where he was amazed to see a maze of
    firefighters and police swarming the area.
    While he'd been fighting his fire alone, firefighters from 27
    communities had filled the neighborhood.
    He was quickly taken to an ambulance and spent the night in a
    hospital. He hopes to return to work but says it's possible he may
    not. He still has trouble breathing and has blurry vision.
    A native of the Cape Verde Islands, he has one son who's a
    rookie firefighter in Providence and another taking classes in the
    hope of also joining the profession.
    Ramos wouldn't want his sons to risk their lives as he did, but
    says any experienced firefighter would do just what he did.
    "I probably went a little beyond (the norm), but firefighters
    don't take defeat that easily," he said. "For me to walk away
    would have been a defeat."
    A few days after the fire, Ramos met Earl Cook and his family.
    "He was crying," Ramos said of Cook.
    Joanne Cook lives with her 72-year-old father and said he had
    been trying without success to sell the pickup truck Ramos used in
    battling the fire.
    "I believe there was a reason for it," she said. "It's just a
    miracle the house is still standing."
    She said the family expressed its gratitude to the firefighter.
    "It was literally an inferno back there," she said. "He's a
    hero in my book."

    (Copyright 2003 by The Associated Press. All Rights Reserved.)
    Proudly serving as the IACOJ Minister of Information & Propoganda!
    Be Safe! Lookouts-Awareness-Communications-Escape Routes-Safety Zones

    *Gathering Crust Since 1968*
    On the web at www.section2wildfire.com

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    No, he would have been a "hero" only if he died protecting insured property.
    Now its just stupid, working alone.

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    What about that ICS/IMS thing we hear about? He was heroic, but why did the organization put him in that position.
    Was he freelancing? Sounds like it I can't imagine them having no accountability.
    Some of the most heroic things are done by guys out on their own, but we shouldn't encourage it. especially for property.

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    The words "dedication" and "unselfish" come immediately to mind.

    You don't freelance for 3.5 hours by yourself. Don't even start attacking this guy.

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    Thumbs up

    Right on the money George! The 'H' word is one we've argued about a lot lately, but in this case I'll add 'courage' to George's list. It'd be nice if all incidents ran according to the book and our world was the perfect world....how often does that happen? It might not have been according to someone's book but he gets a thumbs up from me

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    Thumbs up

    Hey, I'd be pretty damn appreciative if some FF parked his butt in front of my house for 3 hrs to make sure it didn't burn down while practically the rest of the neighborhood did. Remember the "and property" part of "protecting life and property"? This was it. "Insured" is not the same as "disposable" when it comes down to your most personal possessions. Kudos to this guy.

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    People here are questioning the ICS system used and "freelancing"

    One thing they have ignored is the fact that maybe, just maybe Firefighter Ramos' Engine company waw ordered to make a stand at that location..and they did their duty!

    A tip of the leather to Firefighter Felix Ramos...

    [size=huge] well done, Brother![/size]
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
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    stood his ground alone
    "If I had fallen there in the dark, I could have lost my life"
    "Communication wasn't good, everything was in chaos, I didn't even know where I was"
    increasing difficulty breathing due to smoke inhalation
    Sorry guys, there's just too much here for me to think this went as well as planned. He did a good job, but if any one thing happened differently, would he be here to do interviews?

    I'll risk a lot to save a lot, but this doesn't seem like a lot to save for the lives risked.

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    Originally posted by GeorgeWendtCFI
    The words "dedication" and "unselfish" come immediately to mind.

    You don't freelance for 3.5 hours by yourself. Don't even start attacking this guy.
    Thank you george...We have had mill fires in my city and you are not working out of the command structure...you are doing your job and they most likely forgot he was back there. With the amount of choas going on during the set-up phase of a mill fire I can see where this guy may have been left alone or was thought to have help with him. There should be no blame for him but the IC should have checked on him a little sooner.....NICE JOB BROTHER!
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    Originally posted by quint1driver
    Sorry guys, there's just too much here for me to think this went as well as planned. He did a good job, but if any one thing happened differently, would he be here to do interviews?

    I'll risk a lot to save a lot, but this doesn't seem like a lot to save for the lives risked.
    Do you read what you write? Explain to all of us when the last time you were in a serious working fire and:
    1. Everything went as "planned" (whatver the hell that menas)
    2. If one thing had happened differently, nothing bad would have occurred
    3. The job was perfect.

    Gonzo, as usual, hit this puppy dead on. There were 27 other towns present. Why is it so unreasonable that this guy was assigned to protect the exposure? Yeah, maybe they forgot him. But how many mopes on your FD would have put the line down and walked away because they were "tired"? Please.

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    Actually George, everything went as planned Tuesday morning on a 2 alarm grocery store. Maybe I don't have the extensive wildfire experience of these other "experts", but our guys never worked alone, things were never chaos, and everyone went home.

    If thats standard ops for a fire that size, I'll stand here and proclaim my ignorance.

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    I'm with quint1driver on this one. did he do a great job? absolutely. if i was the homeowner, i would have been singing his prayers too. but "If [he] had fallen there in the dark, [he] could have lost [his] life." what would his family had said? he didn't have any backup (ie, no buddy in case he fell or needed help), no eye protection or air pack on (not that a pack would have lasted for 3 hours anyway), and his radio wasn't working. all this to save a non-living object. remember, houses and belongings (ok, maybe not sentimental ones can't, but the majority of them can) can be replaced. losing the life of one firefighter is too high a price just to save a house.

    did he do an amazing job? absolutely. was he damn lucky he was able to walk away from the fire with only smoke inhalation and an eye injury? absolutely
    Last edited by DrParasite; 11-21-2003 at 12:25 PM.
    If my basic HazMat training has taught me nothing else, it's that if you see a glowing green monkey running away from something, follow that monkey!

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    Originally posted by DrParasite
    I'm with quint1driver on this one. did he do a great job? absolutely. if i was the homeowner, i would have been singing his prayers too. but "If [he] had fallen there in the dark, [he] could have lost [his] life." what would his family had said? he didn't have any backup (ie, no buddy in case he fell or needed help), no eye protection or air pack on (not that a pack would have lasted for 3 hours anyway), and his radio wasn't working. all this to save a non-living object. remember, houses and belongings (ok, maybe not sentimental ones can't, but the majority of them can) can be replaced. losing the life of one firefighter is too high a price just to save a house.

    did he do an amazing job? absolutely. was he damn lucky he was able to walk away from the fire with only smoke inhalation and an eye injury? absolutely
    Eye protection: Face shields and bourkes can only do so much. Having seen live video feeds of the fire on New England Cable News...the brands were flying like snow in a blizzard!

    Airpack: the facepiece may have offered himn a little more protection, but that's all.

    Radio: Murphy's Laws of Firefighting states "radios go dead at the worst possible moment..no doubt Murph was there!

    Incident command: 27 communities from two states, multiple radio frequencies, a mill building fulling involved, 13 homes on fire, brands flying like snowflakes in a blizzard...

    This fire had conflagration potential... the Pawtucket FD and the mutual aid companies did one hell of a job!
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
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    quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    stood his ground alone
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------




    quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    "If I had fallen there in the dark, I could have lost my life"
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------




    quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    "Communication wasn't good, everything was in chaos, I didn't even know where I was"
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------




    quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    increasing difficulty breathing due to smoke inhalation
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    No doubt, fire fighter Felix Ramos did a hell of a good job. He should be proud of what he acomplished.

    I would how ever give him a mild arse chewing for a few reasons.

    He broke a number of wildfire safety rules. I know, we all do it, but it is not a good example.

    LACES: Lookouts, Alertness, Communications, Escape Routes, Safety Zones.

    He had no lookouts, poor communications, didnt sound like an escape route, and a questionable safety zone... Behind a pickup?!? He could have sheltered in the house to let the fire front blow over, but that is always a touch and go thing. His alertness was also questionable, he didnt know what other fire units were doing and didnt know that there was a strike team on the other side of the house.

    10 Standing Fire Orders.
    Fire Behavior

    1. Keep informed on fire weather conditions and forecasts.
    2. Know what your fire is doing at all times.
    3. Base all actions on current and expected behavior of the fire.

    Fireline Safety
    4. Identify escape routes and make them known.
    5. Post lookouts when there is possible danger.
    6. Be alert. Keep calm. Think clearly. Act decisively.

    Organizational Control
    7. Maintain prompt communications with your forces, your supervisor and adjoining forces.
    8. Give clear instructions and insure they are understood.
    9. Maintain control of your forces at all times.

    If 1-9 are considered, then...
    10. Fight fire agressively, having provided for safety first.

    The 10 Standard Fire Orders are firm. We Donít Break Them; We Donít Bend Them. All firefighters have a Right to a Safe Assignment.


    Yep, broke some of these to.

    Fight fire agressively, but provide for safety first. He was aggresive, but safety was obviously comprimised as proven by the eye injury and smoke inhilation. Maybe this could be addressed with PPE, seriously. We make a number of stands against wildfire like this a summer and we have learned a thing or tow about what you need for PPE in a battle like this. Your basic wildland PPE is not going to cut it. We use interface PPE made form Advance with a full body layer of cotton underneath. Sometimes the bunker gear even comes out, we keep it with us on our brush trucks incase it gets realy hot. GOGGLES!!! Keep them on when it gets western. And lastly Hot Shield smoke filters. It is realy amazeing the difference these make. We have worked for hours in heavy smoke with much less difficulty and side effects.

    1. Fire not scouted and sized up.

    2. In country not seen in daylight.

    3. Safety zones and escape routes not identified.

    4. Unfamiliar with weather and local factors influencing fire behavior

    5. Uninformed on strategy, tactics, and hazards.

    6. Instructions and assignments not clear.

    7. No communication link between crewmembers and
    supervisors.

    8. Constructing line without safe anchor point.

    9. Building line downhill with fire below.

    10. Attempting frontal assault on fire.

    11. Unburned fuel between you and the fire.

    12. Cannot see main fire, not in contact with anyone who can.

    13. On a hillside where rolling material can ignite fuel below.

    14. Weather gets hotter and drier.

    15. Wind increases and/or changes direction.

    16. Getting frequent spot fires across line.

    17. Terrain or fuels make escape to safety zones difficult.

    18. Feel like taking a nap near fireline.





    I see that a few of these were bent, er, broken as well.

    I dont claim to be a safety officer or some sort of little fire angel. Hell, I break a lot of these on every wildfire we go to, you often have to if you want to win.

    What I am saying is that fire fighter Felix Ramos did a hell of a job and in doing so broke the majority of the safety guidlines set for for wildland fire fighting.

    Living dangerously is a rush!!!

    I would love to be there the next time fire fighter Felix Ramos is ready for a fight.
    -Brotherhood: I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.
    -Mistakes: It could be that the purpose of you life is to serve as a warning to others.

    -Adversity: That which does not kill me postpones the inevitable.

    -Despair: Its always darkest before it goes Pitch Black.

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    Capt. Gonzo, I'm not trying to take away from the great job the pawtucket FD and the mutual aid companies did on this fire. all members involved did a great job. and as many have pointed out in other threads, face shields and bourkes do not provide sufficiant eye protection according to the NFPA. goggles or safety glasses would (and most of the SCBA masks would have too). all i was saying was he was damn lucky to be able to be giving interviews after the fire.
    If my basic HazMat training has taught me nothing else, it's that if you see a glowing green monkey running away from something, follow that monkey!

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    OK, the Hero part.

    IMO that is totaly subjective. To the homeowner and many other people I am sure that fire fighter Felix Ramos is a hero, and rightly deserved.

    However, I know a lot of "fire fighter Felix Ramos"s, the majority of the guys I fight fire with have been in similar situations, albiet with more organization, preperation, PPE, communication, and with a hell of a lot of training and experience.

    Does it make fire fighter Felix Ramos more of a hero then the guys I know because he put himself at greater risk to reach the same end...

    IMO no, it does not. What it does for me is raise a lot of other questions that need to be gone over in the after action strategy sesion so that then dont happen again. There were a lot of very questionable aspects to this whole situation. Thank God they can mark it in the win column and only have minor injuries and a good battle storie after its done.

    Agressive fire fighting like this is what we need...

    Fight fire agressively but provide for safety first!

    Words to live by.

    Give it hell!!!

    But for Gods sake, use some common sence, some PPE, and dont waste your life...

    We need you at the next fire, the way the wildfire seasons have been going you will have plenty of chances to live dangerously at the next one, and the next, and...

    Definition of "hero"
    American Heritage Dictionary

    1. In mythology and legend, a man, often of divine ancestry, who is endowed with great courage and strength, celebrated for his bold exploits, and favored by the gods.
    2. A person noted for feats of courage or nobility of purpose, especially one who has risked or sacrificed his or her life: soldiers and nurses who were heroes in an unpopular war.
    3. A person noted for special achievement in a particular field: the heroes of medicine. See Synonyms at celebrity.*
    4. The principal male character in novel, poem, or dramatic presentation. See Usage Note at heroine.**

    * SYNONYMS: celebrity, hero, luminary, name, notable, peronage. The central meaning shared by these nouns is "a widely known person": social celebrities,; the heroes of science; a theatrical luminary; a big name in sports; a notable of the concert stage; a personage in the field of philosophy.

    **The word hero should no longer be regarded as restricted to men in the sense "a person noted for courageous action," though heroine is always restricted to women. The distinction between hero and heroine is still useful, however, in referring to the principal character of a fictional work, inasmuch as the virtues and qualities that become a traditional literary heroine like Elizabeth Bennet or Isabel Archer are generally quite different from those that become a traditional literary hero like Tom Sawyer or Huckleberry Finn.
    -Brotherhood: I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.
    -Mistakes: It could be that the purpose of you life is to serve as a warning to others.

    -Adversity: That which does not kill me postpones the inevitable.

    -Despair: Its always darkest before it goes Pitch Black.

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    Good grief...

    First, he doesn't need an arse chewing. He knows what he did was beyond what is expected -- as he said, he wouldn't want his sons to do it.

    I don't think this is a case of exceptional luck, either. He took a stand. Gee, things start to go south and he had to do what WALK THE 30' OR SO LENGTH OF A HOUSE TO SAFETY?

    Fires in cities don't flash like they can in ultra-dry wildland conditions. Yes, it was wind-driven. But someone can look and see if their alley or whatever to safety is getting comprised pretty damn easily. It's not going to instantly and unexpectedly be cut-off.

    Was their a loss of accountability? You would've found him exactly where he was assigned -- at the end of the hoseline. We should all be so lucky that you can follow a hose to find someone. That also means he wasn't freelancing. He was where he was told to go, doing what he was told to do. Making a decision all the while that he still felt safe to be there.

    We don't know specifics about collapse zones and such, but I can tell you someone who would've been in a much better position to judge the safety of the situation.

    We also don't know the degree of injury that an "ember in the eye" or just how bad "increasing difficulty breathing" is. Reporters can spin stuff, ya know.

    Are their lessons we can all take back from this? Sure.

    In the initial stages of a fire, sometimes you take aggressive stands. His company splitting up was fine for the situation of exterior, defensive operations.

    But an effort should be made as soon as practical to relieve those first-in companies so their officers can take a head count and re-group their troops after having them split up.

    With a big fire like this, it's easy to keep assigning fresh units to handle more minor problems on the periphery of the incident, forgetting about the units that have been in the trenches since the beginning -- since when you look around, you see a problem there, and another problem over there, but you don't see a problem where the first in companies are and you forget the effort they've been giving & beating their taking.

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    Originally posted by Dalmatian90
    Good grief...

    First, he doesn't need an arse chewing. He knows what he did was beyond what is expected -- as he said, he wouldn't want his sons to do it.


    Do as I say not as I do...

    I have seen inumerable rookies get arse chewings over much smaller matters.

    Just because he is a vet and he knew what he was doing doesnt exempt him from following the SOPs and guidlines that were set for for his safety and the safety of fire fighters everywhere.

    I didnt say rip him a new one...

    I said a mild arse chewing, as in:

    "Damn, dont do that again you almost gave me a heart attack. You are seting a bad safety example for the rookies, who look up to you and might get themselves in a dangerous situation if they see the experienced guys breaking the safety rules. Now here, have a beer on me tell me all about it..."

    I don't think this is a case of exceptional luck, either. He took a stand. Gee, things start to go south and he had to do what WALK THE 30' OR SO LENGTH OF A HOUSE TO SAFETY?


    Perhaps, but that is also speculation.

    Fires in cities don't flash like they can in ultra-dry wildland conditions. Yes, it was wind-driven. But someone can look and see if their alley or whatever to safety is getting comprised pretty damn easily. It's not going to instantly and unexpectedly be cut-off.
    The safety rules of wildfire are also applied to interface fire fighting where I come from.

    Was their a loss of accountability? You would've found him exactly where he was assigned -- at the end of the hoseline. We should all be so lucky that you can follow a hose to find someone. That also means he wasn't freelancing. He was where he was told to go, doing what he was told to do. Making a decision all the while that he still felt safe to be there.
    The SOP on this that has been used with all of the agencies that I have worked with is 15 minute check ins. He was there for 3.5 hours. In our SOP if you cant establish contact at the 15 minute interval you try a few more times and then go looking after about 20 minutes. Often it is just something simple, dead battery, bumped radio dials, but once in a while it is trouble.

    We don't know specifics about collapse zones and such, but I can tell you someone who would've been in a much better position to judge the safety of the situation.
    Yes, and this is what he said.


    quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    "If I had fallen there in the dark, I could have lost my life"
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------




    quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    "Communication wasn't good, everything was in chaos, I didn't even know where I was"
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------




    quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    increasing difficulty breathing due to smoke inhalation
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    We also don't know the degree of injury that an "ember in the eye" or just how bad "increasing difficulty breathing" is. Reporters can spin stuff, ya know.
    If you are insinuating that the injuries were not serious and superficial then I hope to heaven you are right.

    Are their lessons we can all take back from this? Sure.
    That would be a nice change. Usualy we have to get somebody killed before we learn a lesson.


    But an effort should be made as soon as practical to relieve those first-in companies so their officers can take a head count and re-group their troops after having them split up.

    With a big fire like this, it's easy to keep assigning fresh units to handle more minor problems on the periphery of the incident, forgetting about the units that have been in the trenches since the beginning -- since when you look around, you see a problem there, and another problem over there, but you don't see a problem where the first in companies are and you forget the effort they've been giving & beating their taking.
    This is where communication can make a world of difference. The spent crews have to inform their IC that they need a breather. The macho BS has to be put aside if you dont want to run your crews into the dirt hard and fast. This is easy to illustrate each and every wildfire season, it happens over and over.
    -Brotherhood: I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.
    -Mistakes: It could be that the purpose of you life is to serve as a warning to others.

    -Adversity: That which does not kill me postpones the inevitable.

    -Despair: Its always darkest before it goes Pitch Black.

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    Why do people keep comparing this to a wildland/interface fire? It is as far from a wildland fire as you can get. The area is full of 2.5 and three story wood frames buildings, pretty much right on top of one another. We don't have wildland fires in this area and for that I am greatful. There is nothing but pavement and houses. I was at the fire and heard the whole thing. They did roll call every so often and everyone was accounted for. This fire did not move like the fires you saw in San Diego. No people or apparatus were overrun by the fire. The structural fires adjacent to the mill were from radiant heat while the rest were from falling brands. The company was assigned to save a street and thats what they did. This man was at the end of a hoseline. I didn't see any handlines any more than 250 feet long, which means he was that same distance from an engine. If he felt he was in danger, I would assume he would have the brains and experience enough to move. For all anyone here knows, he could have been sight of his officer and pump operator the whole time.

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    I was half hoping George would have checked in. The general consensus is he did well. I have no problem accepting that. As I stated before, we don't get wildland fires. Looking at things from a structural aspect, things would have been wrong. But Im willing to state he did go above and beyond his duty and I commend him.

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    I detect the horse still has some life left....

    We're basing our suppositions on a media story...we all know how accurate those are, right? Why so eager to criticize based on a partial story? Agree with CFDeng3...he was on a line that was flowing water so his pump operator must've known somebody was on the end of that line. He may have had an SCBA on his back the entire time for all we know. Ran out of air, took his mask off, got an ember in the eye and operated the best he could under tough conditions. Maybe the other hoseline team was in the back yard 50ft away from him. Doesn't sound like he was suicidal.

    I'm all for eliminating foolish practices that sometimes get us in trouble. I sincerely believe in and practice risk management. I also know that we sometimes find ourselves in tough spots, easily second guessed by others, that come down to experience, training, and gut feel when making a judgement of staying or going. Whether you like it or not, luck also enters into the equation.

    FF Ramos still gets my vote for a job well done.

  22. #22
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    Ok Sampson,

    Just because he is a vet and he knew what he was doing doesnt exempt him from following the SOPs and guidlines that were set for for his safety and the safety of fire fighters everywhere.

    Where does it say in the article he disregarged orders? I would really like to know where "SOPs" or "Guidelines" where ever set for "fire fighters everywhere."

    It's acceptable to question, and criticize saying, "That's not how we where taught to do it..." but don't make the mistake assuming or believing everyone's been taught to do it the same way, or that your practices are infallible.

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    Originally posted by quint1driver
    I was half hoping George would have checked in. The general consensus is he did well. I have no problem accepting that. As I stated before, we don't get wildland fires. Looking at things from a structural aspect, things would have been wrong. But Im willing to state he did go above and beyond his duty and I commend him.
    Sorry, I actually had work to do

    Somebody answer the question: Why is it so out of the realm of possibility that this fire fighter was doing exactly what he was assigned to do? Yeah, he probably was forgotten about. But he did not abandon his post or his assignment. Many of the FF we know would have.

    It was not perfect, it was not pretty and it was not textbook. But it is so damn easy to Monday morning quarterback. This man should be commended for following orders. Where should he have been? Out front trying to get on television?

    As far as the rest of the fire...THERE WERE 27 OTHER FIRE DEPARTMENTS THERE! He made a difference in a big way. Screw the abandoned buildings. He helped a family who probably didn't have much to begin with have a little happier holiday.

    Some of you literally make me sick to my stomach.

  24. #24
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    As usual, I agree with George and Gonzo. This man did his job and did his job well. We all should pat him on the back for actually doing what he was assigned and completing his assignment. As we all know, on a fire that size you pick your battles, draw your lines and hold 'em. He did just that.

    Sure, everyone can pick it apart after it gets neatly tucked away under a microscope and looked at one step at a time. Then it's easy to "Monday morning quarterback" with anyone's duties. This would be good ole fashioned firefighting at it's best. Save lives and property, one life or one property at a time.

    My hat's off to you brother!!!!!


    _______________________
    Lt.Jason Knecht
    Altoona Fire Rescue
    Altoona, WI

  25. #25
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    Originally posted by GeorgeWendtCFI


    Sorry, I actually had work to do

    It was not perfect, it was not pretty and it was not textbook. But it is so damn easy to Monday morning quarterback. This man should be commended for following orders. Where should he have been? Out front trying to get on television?

    As far as the rest of the fire...THERE WERE 27 OTHER FIRE DEPARTMENTS THERE! He made a difference in a big way. Screw the abandoned buildings. He helped a family who probably didn't have much to begin with have a little happier holiday.

    Some of you literally make me sick to my stomach.
    and some of you need a reality check to see what happened. George, I believe you said you were an adjunct prof for the NFA. Capt. Gonzo, I believe you said you worked for the Mass. fire academy. if one of your rookies had done the same thing as a live burn, what would your reaction have been? you would have ripped him a new one on the spot, because he could have been injured and no one would have known.

    no one is saying that this guy didn't do a hell of a job. but in his own words, "If I had fallen there in the dark, I could have lost my life." the pump operator might not have even noticed. you guys are both instructors. would you want your rookies to be doing stuff like this on a scene? the other thing, from the article is "He hopes to return to work but says it's possible he may
    not. He still has trouble breathing and has blurry vision." so because of his "heroic" work, his career might be over. all for an inanimate object.

    again, no one is saying that this guy didn't do a hell of a job saving the structure. but it "makes me sick" (to use George's comment) that those of you who preach firefighter safety and instruct rookies not to endanger their lives unneccessarily are saying that this guy did everything right when fighting this fire.
    If my basic HazMat training has taught me nothing else, it's that if you see a glowing green monkey running away from something, follow that monkey!

    FF/EMT/DBP

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