View Poll Results: Do you believe the story?

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  • Yes.

    16 57.14%
  • No.

    6 21.43%
  • Not sure.

    6 21.43%
  1. #1
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    Default Alcohol/drinking in San Francisco- Do you believe it?

    Do you believe the Firefighter in the story or the
    union leader? This is a very edgy bout between tradition,
    new thinking, the "H word" and the mix of a female in
    the fire service. (I dont think the fact that she is a
    female is a major item here) The outcome should be
    interesting...
    Last edited by CALFFBOU; 11-22-2003 at 09:28 PM.

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    My gut reaction is no, I dont believe her. Possibly its because her harassment suit isnt quite up to snuff so she is throwing up a smoke screen.
    Could be wrong but its my gut feeling.
    After I'm dead I'd rather have people ask why I have no monument than why I have one

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  3. #3
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    Post Possible vs probable

    I also am not sure...need more information. My gut says that it is true. I only say that because I do not think she would file a harassment suit if she did not have the background details to do so.. In this day and time it is just stupid to cry wolf. I think that she may be using the alcohol to add meet and get more media attention. Just think about how much the alcohol thing is in the media today... We have the accident involing Andee Huber, The accident involving the wildland firefighters, the whole IAFC thing about alcohol. It is an attention getter to draw more media to the thing.

    So....is it possible that all this has happened....I would say yes... Is it probable that it happened...I would say yes also!
    09-11 .. 343 "All Gave Some..Some Gave ALL" God Bless..R.I.P.
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    The simple answer is that we outside the particular firehouse in SF, just do not know. What I do know that the consumption of alcohol in firehouses used to be a not infrequent occurrence in past times, and still occurrs in some places today. It is indeed a possibility that the Firefighter is absolutely correct in her statement. Hopefully one way or the other, the truth will come out in the upcoming inquiry.

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    unless we are members of the sffd we have no right to pass judgements on anyone here, HOWEVER since we already are:

    1) I don't believe her
    2) I don't believe her
    3) I don't believe her etc...

    from the scuttle butt i have heard from my brothers across the bay, this member was having trouble, and wanted an out....and one may or may not have been supplied by higher ups..who knows

    FWIW - 2Eng 2Tk is a VERY traditional senior house, even by San Francisco standards, and she may have been rocking the boat a little too much for them to handle. at one time the average age of the truck crew was 48 or something like that!! and they're busy...

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    Default 2 cents...

    #1. OFD226- I have some very reliable sources at
    SFFD too but I am not going comment on what I have
    heard.

    #2. I figured/assume if someone/anyone comes forward
    with some serious claims like this, he/she better
    have their facts straight and ducks in a row. Since
    this made the paper, again, I am curious regarding
    the outcome.
    Last edited by CALFFBOU; 11-23-2003 at 01:49 AM.

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    Here is a link to the story

    http://cms.firehouse.com/content/art...Id=46&id=22302

    This link provides a more detailed story, with some compelling evidence.

    http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...NGLT37MHB1.DTL
    Last edited by Duffman; 11-23-2003 at 12:37 PM.
    "We shouldn't be opening firehouses in Baghdad and closing them in New York City."

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    I promise all the people out there if you are not from the SFFD or the immediate surrounding departments you have no idea of the potitical situation there. There are so many factions within the FD that could serve to benefit by these allegations becoming true. Think of the SFFD as the middle east with everyone having their own interests at heart and none for their fellow brothers and sisters, with suicide bombings commonplace. it is an extraordinarly complicated place, with many many people not members of the union (IAFF). there is a separate Black FF union, Asian FF Union, Gay Lez FF Union, FF/Paramedic Union, Female FF Union ETC!! There are landmines strewn everywhere, and someone just ran up one with dinamite strapped to them......

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    OFD, are these different factions you talk about actually unions, or merely organizations? I imagine only the IAFF local is the unit that negotiates with the city. My guess is that these other "unions" aren't labor organizations.

    This is another case of firefighters being their own worst enemy. Regardless of wether or not the current allegations have merit, evidence of intoxicated firefighters has been brought to light. The Chief admits to a guy blowing a .4 BAC.

    The biggest surprise to me is that she is only asking for 17 large.
    "We shouldn't be opening firehouses in Baghdad and closing them in New York City."

    IACOJ

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    unless we are members of the sffd we have no right to pass judgements on anyone here, HOWEVER since we already are:

    Funny to hear such a hypocritical statement, but it's not a shocker.

    If this were a small Pennsylvania Department, you people would be all over the place condemning them to hell. But I guess since it is a large, Unionized, So-called "Professional" department, no Judgement shall be prematurely passed?

    Bottom line: No matter what the circumstances,there seems to be some nasty allegations here. No, we cannot judge if they are true but we can say something shady was probably going on. If something shady was going on, the involved parties should be Disciplined severely by the city officials who run the department and not by the union heads who usually corrupt disciplinary processes.

    God knows, the Union is going to do what it can to keep those dues rolling in.

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    If something shady was going on, the involved parties should be Disciplined severely by the city officials who run the department and not by the union heads who usually corrupt disciplinary processes.
    One, since when..and where does it say the Union was going to discipline anyone.

    I guess you'll have to define corruption for me Chris. As a Union President and Eboard member for over 9 years I never once "corrupted" any disciplinary process. Did I represent my Union brothers? yes. did I ensure that they were treated fairly by the Administration? Yes.
    You know, this may suprise you, but not every administration has its employees best interest at heart. Many Chiefs are vindictive and spitefull, and if it weren't for union representation, guys would be getting the shaft left and right. Does that mean all Unions are perfect, nope. Just that there needs to be checks and balances.

    Furthermore it would seem that there was a whole bunch of don't ask, don't tell going on. How do you explain the Chief being so aware of the drinking problem, yet it still continues to go on.

    God knows, the Union is going to do what it can to keep those dues rolling in.
    Yeah, thats what its all about. Ignore stuff and bury safety issues so that you can keep the ole treasury full. I am suprised, usually you make better arguments.
    Last edited by hfd66truck; 11-24-2003 at 07:01 PM.

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    If something shady was going on, the involved parties should be Disciplined severely by the city officials who run the department and not by the union heads who usually corrupt disciplinary processes.

    Tillerman, as an executive board member of my local, I take offense to the above comment. I, like Dave, have never corrupted any disciplinary process. Quite the contrary. I help preserve the process by making sure it is followed to the letter.

    I understand that you choose to take cheap shots at the IAFF every chance you get. This time you shot yourself squarely in the foot.
    "We shouldn't be opening firehouses in Baghdad and closing them in New York City."

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    Dave and Duff are correct.
    Tillerman 25 is wrong.
    E'nuff said!
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
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    I didn't shoot myself anywhere.

    If these allegations are true, which they probably are. I am interested to see if the union allows these Firefighters to be disciplined without some sort of knock down drag out fight. The union has a job to protect it's employees no matter what. There have been Firefighters here who had to be dragged out of bed drunk at home by the Battalion Chief (Who is in the same bargaining unit, another farce) and the union is right there defending his A-- when the County said to get rid of him after several attempts at helping this man rid himslef of his problem.

    The Bottom line is the Fire Service as a WHOLE has a drinking problem. We like to wind down with a when we get off work or duty. Some of us don't drink and those firefighters are usually in the minority of our ranks and do not have a loud enough voice to object. Just look at the Fire Service activities, Most Volunteers have a State/County firemens Convention, annual banquet, Holiday parties etc. that usually involve and center around the alcohol. The Career Firefighters have the MDA tourney, Emerald Society Functions, Shift Parties etc. that usually involve alot of drinking as well. I am sorry, if you are accused of Drinking and Riding Fire Apparatus, in my eyes you are GUILTY until proven INNOCENT. Sorry, I won't buy into the "we gotta help these people " BS when it's my life and the life of my family on the line. You don't need a frickin' bar in your firehouse, you don't need a beer fridge or a beer machine either. Get with the times, this is an inherently Dangerous business we all do here. Whether you are doing Barn Fires or Garden Apartment Fires, Career or Volunteer, you need to come to the Station SOBER and READY to do your DAMN JOB!


    Duffman and Dave,

    I still think the IAFF is no less corrupt than the Teamsters. I understand your positions, but you have to look out for your members. Even if it means bending a little and going to bat for them if they do something wrong. You will defend a Complete P.O.S. just as quick as a good employee. It's why you were organized in the first place correct? To look out for your members and make sure they ALL get fair treatment? Well, that ain't exactly right in my eyes, but I understand your positions. If you do something wrong and there is proff beyond a resonable doubt, there is no reason to skate the disciplinary process.

    Be safe.

    Dave, when you gonna come to the DC area so we can debate this at the local pub? (See, there I go with the alcohol reference....LOL)

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    Gonzo, it's not that I am wrong.

    I just don't agree with your point of view. We have differing opinions about a subject of an organization which you are a member of. It's also an organization I am critical of because of the harassment I recieve from some of it's members that are hostile towards my position as a Volunteer Firefighter and Fire Officer in a combination department.

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    I am sorry, if you are accused of Drinking and Riding Fire Apparatus, in my eyes you are GUILTY until proven INNOCENT.
    That's a load of crap, friend.

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    Ok, so lets just back off these people until you have concrete evidence. They continue thier destructive behavior until someone gets hurt by their irresponsibility?

    If the accusation is there, the first thing that needs to be handed out is a suspension in order to prevent the accused from possibly continuing on thier destructive path and putting lives on the line. Normally, if someone is accused of being an addict, there has to be some type of symptoms to base the accusation on. If Joe Blow FF has an untarnished work record, always cooperates with fellow FF's and is a model employee, 99% of the time, he won't be accused, so there is no issue.

    Why are so many people coming up to defend this kind of behavior in an All-Career department but continually blast the same type of allegations as Gospel when it comes to the Volunteer Fire Service?

    If the allegations are there, the FF's accused need to be taken off the job until they are proven innocent through a proper disciplinary process that DOES NOT involve the union! If they are, in fact, drinking on the job, what good is there in continuing to let them perform as Firefighters? Somene please enlighten me as to how effective a drunk Fireman can be.

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    If the accusation is there, the first thing that needs to be handed out is a suspension in order to prevent the accused from possibly continuing on thier destructive path and putting lives on the line
    Ok, so I am accusing you of drinking last week and then showing up for your shift. You honestly believe that you should be suspended right now? By your own words, there was an accusation by someone, "if you are accused of Drinking and Riding Fire Apparatus, in my eyes you are GUILTY until proven INNOCENT".

    Sorry, but I think you are going a little too far on this one. And Yes, my example is quite extreme.

    And no one is defending the behavior, we are just waiting for more details.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    And no one is defending the behavior, we are just waiting for more details.
    Here we go avioding the question.


    Why is it that no one waits for details when it is a small VFD in rural Pennsylvania?

    Here, I will state my original question clearly.

    Why is no one all over this like they are on "accussatory" stories of the same nature pertaining to a Volunteer Fire Department?

    If this were the "Small-Town Pennsylvania or New Jersey" VFD, you people would be damning them to hell! This just goes to show the Hypocrisy of most of the posters on this board who are afraid of offending certain factions on here.

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    Originally posted by TillerMan25
    Why is it that no one waits for details when it is a small VFD in rural Pennsylvania?
    I must admit ... when I noticed this thread, I thought to myself, "Hmmm ... I don't remember anyone asking if they believed the stories about the volunteer departments..." Then again, we in the volunteer fire service (especially in PA) don't have the best track record in the world, so more often than not, it is true. Does it make it right to just assume it is true? No. Is it understandable. Sure.

    I think the real question is, do you think that this story is true, when considering that this person has a motive to make the SFFD look as bad as possible.

    The answer to that question is ... I have no idea.

    Stay Safe

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    Do firefighters on both sides of the proverbial "fence" make errors and in judgement and respond to calls or come to work "under ther influence".... yes.

    I have taken personnel home (two instances in my 14 years as a fire officer) for making just such an error, and giving them the "what where you thinking" speech while in the car. They get a freebie on the first one...if it happens again, they know what the consequences will be.
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
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    Originally posted by TillerMan25


    Here we go avioding the question.


    Why is it that no one waits for details when it is a small VFD in rural Pennsylvania?

    Here, I will state my original question clearly.

    Why is no one all over this like they are on "accussatory" stories of the same nature pertaining to a Volunteer Fire Department?

    If this were the "Small-Town Pennsylvania or New Jersey" VFD, you people would be damning them to hell! This just goes to show the Hypocrisy of most of the posters on this board who are afraid of offending certain factions on here.
    So does the IAFF have a vendetta out for all volly depts? I guess you think so. So you have a beef with the union in your area. This is the same organization you stated you may join if you ever get a career job. What side of the fence are you on here? You seem to pick a side depending on what suits you best. Is it possible that your venomous attitude rubs people the wrong way, and you just happen to notice that the ones giving you grief are union firefighter?

    You want my opinon on this? There is always more than one side to a story. Is it possible that this is true? Yes. Is it possible that someone has something out for a dept that will not adjust to fit their needs? Yes. That is why an investigation is in order. To find the truth, and then act appropriatly when it is finished.

    And, no matter what your opinion, the US Constitution says "Innocent until proven guilty" I belive it is written down somewhere if you don't belive me.

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    So does the IAFF have a vendetta out for all volly depts? I guess you think so. So you have a beef with the union in your area.
    Two part answer to that Question.

    a) In the last post of mine you quoted, where did I say anything about the union?
    b) The union in my area has NOTHING to do with this and if you want me to go there, They seem to condone this type of activity by encouraging alcohol consumption at meetings!


    This is the same organization you stated you may join if you ever get a career job.
    Yep, if my money has to go to it, I might as well join right? At least I can have a little bit of input as to where my dues will go.

    What side of the fence are you on here? You seem to pick a side depending on what suits you best.
    Well thats a revelation. Why in the hell would I choose a side to suit anyone else??????


    Is it possible that your venomous attitude rubs people the wrong way
    Yeah, usually when people have views and opinions that aren't reached through the wearing of Rose-Colored glasses, people get angry. I am sorry that offends you. Maybe you can call the ACLU, between their fight to eradicate Christmas and their fight for an "Un-America" they can help you being offended.

    the US Constitution says "Innocent until proven guilty" I belive it is written down somewhere if you don't belive me
    I agree with you there, but it doesn't mean I have to agree with it.
    Guilt beyond a reasonable doubt should be an exception to this, but I am not lobbying for a change to the Bill of Rights. Maybe this isn't guilt betond a reasonable doubt, but when that Volunteer FF in the Midwest rolled that tanker and killed that explorer (Who, IMHO should not have been riding the Tanker anyway, no explorer should be participating in emergency ops) everyone on here was calling for his head. And no one had any "facts" other than hearsay to back up the allegations prior to the press release stating he was intoxicated.

    Was he wrong? YES! Hopefully he sits in a prison for a long time.
    Were we wrong to judge him before we had the facts? YES! But alot of people did it anyway.
    Is Drinking in the Fire Service wrong? YES! Beyond a reasonable doubt!
    Is ETOH in the station limited to Volunteers? NO! But the Volunteers are the ones who get the worst rap for it and it seems covered up more when it involves union firefighters.

    Captain Gonzo, the "freebies" are the biggest problems sometimes. You may have only given one "freebie" but there are too many who give "freebies" until it is wayyyyy too late!

    Sorry if offended anyone.....if it hurts that bad:

    www.aclu.org

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    Originally posted by TillerMan25

    Duffman and Dave,

    I still think the IAFF is no less corrupt than the Teamsters. I understand your positions, but you have to look out for your members. Even if it means bending a little and going to bat for them if they do something wrong. You will defend a Complete P.O.S. just as quick as a good employee. It's why you were organized in the first place correct? To look out for your members and make sure they ALL get fair treatment? Well, that ain't exactly right in my eyes, but I understand your positions. If you do something wrong and there is proff beyond a resonable doubt, there is no reason to skate the disciplinary process.

    Be safe.

    Dave, when you gonna come to the DC area so we can debate this at the local pub? (See, there I go with the alcohol reference....LOL)
    Chris,

    There is a difference between representing someone in a disciplinary hearing, and trying to white wash away the charges. If a member of my local violates policy, it is my job to ensure that the discipline process is fair. For example, you leave the station without permision, but the Chief is your buddy, so you just get spoken to. Joe X leaves the station without permission and gets a 3 day pass because he parked in the Chief's spot last week. Progressive, Fair discipline. When someone is wrong, they have to stand up and take their lumps. But they are not going to get railroaded either. As far as the suspend first, investigate later...no court would ever let it stand. You need proof before you can suspend my friend. If you could get suspended on an accusation, I never would have been out of the Chief's Office.

    As far as the visit, I dunno, but I'll guarrantee you one thing...no Politics, Religion, or Union Business while at the grape. Other than that, you can talk about anything....I'll let you know when I get there.

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    Guilt beyond a reasonable doubt should be an exception to this, but I am not lobbying for a change to the Bill of Rights.
    Nothing should be the exception to this. There is due course for matters like this; nobody's head should be served up, simply because that's the way YOU think it should be.
    I am sorry that offends you. Maybe you can call the ACLU, between their fight to eradicate Christmas and their fight for an "Un-America" they can help you being offended.
    It's knee-jerk, hang 'em high attitudes like yours that the ACLU is fighting to rid our country of. Nobody is fighting to "eradicate" Christmas...give me a break. Your "guilty until proven innocent" America would be a very sad place to live, indeed.

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