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  1. #21
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    Default dedicated units for ric and fast teams

    what makes these trucks different from any other besides a bag. Are they auto response on all structure fires and do the fire crews have special training for this truck and equipment? It looks like a trend of the future to have a crew to specialize in ric/fast training. There is a lot of extensive training to be proficient on any specialized team. Are we ready?


  2. #22
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    Default Re: dedicated units for ric and fast teams

    Originally posted by Nozzlethief
    what makes these trucks different from any other besides a bag. Are they auto response on all structure fires and do the fire crews have special training for this truck and equipment? It looks like a trend of the future to have a crew to specialize in ric/fast training. There is a lot of extensive training to be proficient on any specialized team. Are we ready?
    Speaking for my dept., this is our first out engine so it goes to every fire. This rig will also respond when we are requested as a RIT on mutual aid.

    We marked the compartment and put all the equipment in a bag so that any of our crews or a crew from our automatic aid dept. can be assigned as the RIT and know exactly where the equipment is.

    As far as training, we followed the lead of our neighboring "big city" dept. and trained everybody in basic RIT procedures and techniques. We will build on this at our weekly drills.
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  3. #23
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    Smile

    This is where having different names for the same thing can hurt departments across the world. Just nationalize it by calling it the Firefighter Assist and Search Team or FART for short. Just think of all the possibilities.
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  4. #24
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    And when doing confined space rescue remember to take your Firefighter Underground Collapse Kit.....
    Last edited by Dave1105; 11-24-2003 at 01:41 AM.

  5. #25
    Protective Economist Jonathan Bastian's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Adze39
    With a RIC/RIT, you just need one person monitoring the people. The other person(s) can be doing other duties. That's basically from OSHA's regulation in the 2in/2out ruling of the Respiratory Protection Standard (29 CFR 1910.134)
    I can't agree with you on this one. RIT has NO OTHER DUTIES, other than assembling their equipment and standing by, hoping they are not called to work. By SOG, we permitted the RIT to set up a ground ladder to each level above grade, but even that was a stretch from a true RIT position

    2-in/2-out is NOT the same as RIT. 2-out is mandated by OSHA, yes...but OSHA does not specify any extra training or specialized equipment. A RIT has formal training on self- and firefighter-rescue, plus prepares a reasonable cache of equipment to use in case of they are needed. Again by SOG, we specified a RIT of 4 people...well above the 2-out rule.
    My comments are sometimes educated, sometimes informed and sometimes just blowing smoke...but they are always mine and mine alone and do not reflect upon anyone else (especially my employer).

  6. #26
    IACOJ Agitator Adze39's Avatar
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    I can't agree with you on this one. RIT has NO OTHER DUTIES, other than assembling their equipment and standing by, hoping they are not called to work. By SOG, we permitted the RIT to set up a ground ladder to each level above grade, but even that was a stretch from a true RIT position

    2-in/2-out is NOT the same as RIT. 2-out is mandated by OSHA, yes...but OSHA does not specify any extra training or specialized equipment. A RIT has formal training on self- and firefighter-rescue, plus prepares a reasonable cache of equipment to use in case of they are needed. Again by SOG, we specified a RIT of 4 people...well above the 2-out rule.
    RIT has no other duties and requires specialized training because of your SOGs. So you are telling me that if no one is on the scene with specialized training, then you do not have a RIT team? Show me where it is required that you need specialized training for RIT.

    Plus, I was only saying that you could have a member of the RIT team do other duties. I wasn't making a recommendation or saying how it should be or how we do it, etc.

    From IAFF/IAFC 2 In/2 Out Questions and Answers

    11. Does OSHA permit the two individuals outside the hazard area to be engaged in other activities, such as incident command or fire apparatus operation (for example, pump or aerial operators)?
    OSHA requires that one of the two outside person's function is to account for and, if necessary, initiate a fire fighter rescue. Aside from this individual dedicated to tracking interior personnel, the other designated person(s) is permitted to take on other roles, such as incident commander in charge of the emergency incident, safety officer or equipment operator. However, the other designated outside person(s) cannot be assigned tasks that are critical to the safety and health of any other employee working at the incident.

    Any task that the outside fire fighter(s) performs while in standby rescue status must not interfere with the responsibility to account for those individuals in the hazard area. Any task, evolution, duty, or function being performed by the standby individual(s) must be such that the work can be abandoned, without placing any employee at additional risk, if rescue or other assistance is needed. [29 CFR 1910.134(g)(4)


    RIT teams developed because of 1910.134.

    Would you have RIT in some places without it? yes. Would it be in nearly as many places? no.

    1910.134(g)(4)
    Procedures for interior structural firefighting. In addition to the requirements set forth under paragraph (g)(3), in interior structural fires, the employer shall ensure that:

    1910.134(g)(4)(i)
    At least two employees enter the IDLH atmosphere and remain in visual or voice contact with one another at all times;

    1910.134(g)(4)(ii)
    At least two employees are located outside the IDLH atmosphere; and

    1910.134(g)(4)(iii)
    All employees engaged in interior structural firefighting use SCBAs.

    Note 1 to paragraph (g): One of the two individuals located outside the IDLH atmosphere may be assigned to an additional role, such as incident commander in charge of the emergency or safety officer, so long as this individual is able to perform assistance or rescue activities without jeopardizing the safety or health of any firefighter working at the incident.

    Note 2 to paragraph (g): Nothing in this section is meant to preclude firefighters from performing emergency rescue activities before an entire team has assembled.


    Your "2-out" is your RIT. That is why they are there.
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  7. #27
    Protective Economist Jonathan Bastian's Avatar
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    Adze, I didn't mean to offend you, and still don't...but I disagree with your take on RIT vs. OSHA.

    First, our training was for the whole dept. EVERYONE was expected to keep themselves out of harm's way, know how/when to call "mayday" when they didn't, and serve as a member of the RIT. Our SOG stretched what I believe is the true definition of the RIT; we let them do other minimal fireground activities. It was something we had to do to account for staffing issues. Most of the RIT policies I have scene do not let the RIT do anything operationally on the fireground.

    I am not aware of any specialized training requirement for RIT. However, that doesn't necessarily mean that is the right way to go. I know FDs that call a mutual aid company for RIT; sometimes the MA company does not even know what RIT stands for, much less have any plan of how they might extricate a firefighter in need. I would argue that doesn't really help anyone...and may actually place additional firefighters at risk should the RIT actually be needed. If a dept is going to adopt a RIT SOG, and expect members to properly use it and properly perform within the realm of it, doesn't additional training make sense? I would consider that to be "specialized training."

    While 29 CFR 1910.134 does require the 2-out, it is my opinion that this is not the same as a RIT. The 2-out is your minimum requirement to begin interior firefighting operations (excluding known life hazard). RIT is more of a systemic effort to provide a real insurance policy for firefighters. As the name says, it is to provide "rapid intervention." Rapid intervention cannot occur if a guy is placing ground ladders while the pump operator is standing in his bunker pants at the panel (because the reality is that BOTH outside guys are usually doing another job). That's just "2-out," the OSHA requirement...and a fudge on that as well.

    I know manpower is an issue for almost every FD in North America. There are realities that don't translate well onto paper or into plans, and firefighters are often forced to make difficult compromises. I would just suggest that the fire service, and its dedicated members, would benefit if we made fewer compromises when it comes to the most important people at any incident: the firefighters themselves.
    My comments are sometimes educated, sometimes informed and sometimes just blowing smoke...but they are always mine and mine alone and do not reflect upon anyone else (especially my employer).

  8. #28
    Senior Member Dalmatian90's Avatar
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    I would postulate Rapid Intervention can not occur if you're lugging around TNT tools and spare air packs instead of finding a downed firefighter and getting a hoselines in place to defend that location.

    While RIT training certainly has some good benefits, it's more basic stuff like having crews ready in a reserve role, for both Engine & Truck functions, that the Chief can assign to changing conditions. One of the critical things that can change is someone gets lost or trapped -- you need firefighters to find him, you need firefighters to protect him, then you can figure out how to get him out.

    If you end with a Chief looking during a fire attack 15 minutes after the call came in, and all he has for manpower standing around is a RIT, you got some fundemental problems.

  9. #29
    IACOJ Agitator Adze39's Avatar
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    firemanjb, you didn't offend me


    I remember a previous discussion on RIT where people talked about training Phoenix did at an old SuperMarket or someplace like that. Didn't they find that they needed X number of people in RIT for it to be effective? Anyone know what I am talking about?
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  10. #30
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    Here's what I found in a thread at rapidintervention.com

    The PFD stated that firefighter's operating in large buildings, like a 7500 square foot warehouse: If you extend an attack line 150', get 40' off the line and then run out of air, it will take us 22 minutes to get out of the structure.

    PFD ran this drill over 200 times with over 1144 PFD firefighters participating.

    It takes 12 firefighters to rescue one, and one in five RIT members will get into some trouble themselves.

    The average time from mayday to removal was 21 minutes.
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  11. #31
    Protective Economist Jonathan Bastian's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Adze39
    Here's what I found in a thread at rapidintervention.com

    The PFD stated that firefighter's operating in large buildings, like a 7500 square foot warehouse: If you extend an attack line 150', get 40' off the line and then run out of air, it will take us 22 minutes to get out of the structure.

    PFD ran this drill over 200 times with over 1144 PFD firefighters participating.

    It takes 12 firefighters to rescue one, and one in five RIT members will get into some trouble themselves.

    The average time from mayday to removal was 21 minutes.
    And, if memory serves, I think PFD also found it takes over a dozen FFs to successfully rescue ONE brother in trouble.
    My comments are sometimes educated, sometimes informed and sometimes just blowing smoke...but they are always mine and mine alone and do not reflect upon anyone else (especially my employer).

  12. #32
    IACOJ Agitator Adze39's Avatar
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    Originally posted by firemanjb


    And, if memory serves, I think PFD also found it takes over a dozen FFs to successfully rescue ONE brother in trouble.
    Yes, a dozen = 12
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  13. #33
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    Originally posted by Adze39


    Yes, a dozen = 12
    Unless the fire is in a bakery...then the "bakers dozen" rule applies...13!
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
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  14. #34
    Protective Economist Jonathan Bastian's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Adze39


    Yes, a dozen = 12


    Maybe that's why my memory was so good....



    Guess that happens when you start to scan at the end of a post...
    My comments are sometimes educated, sometimes informed and sometimes just blowing smoke...but they are always mine and mine alone and do not reflect upon anyone else (especially my employer).

  15. #35
    Forum Member Bones42's Avatar
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    FART
    Local law enforcement near me has come up with some specialized investigative teams. One of those teams is a Fatal Accident Response Team. They thought it was a good name, until they got jackets made up with their initials...man o man, do they get their chops busted evertime they respond to a team.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  16. #36
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    Originally posted by Dalmatian90
    I would postulate Rapid Intervention can not occur if you're lugging around TNT tools and spare air packs instead of finding a downed firefighter and getting a hoselines in place to defend that location.

    While RIT training certainly has some good benefits, it's more basic stuff like having crews ready in a reserve role, for both Engine & Truck functions, that the Chief can assign to changing conditions. One of the critical things that can change is someone gets lost or trapped -- you need firefighters to find him, you need firefighters to protect him, then you can figure out how to get him out.

    If you end with a Chief looking during a fire attack 15 minutes after the call came in, and all he has for manpower standing around is a RIT, you got some fundemental problems.

    We operate RIT using the A.W.A.R.E. plan. One of the concepts of this plan is getting a hoseline between the fire and the trapped ff to buy time for extrication.

    We also split up the RIT into 3 "teams": The primary team is two lightly equipped firefighters who quickly find and assess the downed member. A support team is then called to bring in the needed equipment (such as a TNT tool and/or the RIT air pack and to assist with extrication. The apparatus driver acts as the outside support person.

    I'll agree with you that engine and truck work must come first. After all, if you put the fire out, you eliminate the need for RIT. We're definitely not forgetting about the "bread and butter" stuff but we wanted some training and equipment so we are better prepared for those oh **** moments when the fire doesn't go according to plan.

  17. #37
    Protective Economist Jonathan Bastian's Avatar
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    Originally posted by WTFD10
    I'll agree with you that engine and truck work must come first. After all, if you put the fire out, you eliminate the need for RIT.
    Our saying wasn't quite as generous:

    If you put the fire out, half your problem just went away.
    My comments are sometimes educated, sometimes informed and sometimes just blowing smoke...but they are always mine and mine alone and do not reflect upon anyone else (especially my employer).

  18. #38
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    http://www.rapidintervention.com/med.../november2002/

    I like the proactive concept of the safety engine rather than the traditionally reactive RIT/FAST/RIC.

    Why not make an attempt to prevent problems in addition to managing them when they do occur?

    The crew of the safety engine handles the typical RIT functions, but instead of sitting and waiting, they take action to prevent FF injuries from happening in the first place.

    I don't think throwing hand ladders and removing safety bars prevents the crew from responding to a FF-in-danger scenario.

    A very good article, imho.

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  19. #39
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    While we are on this topic, what type of apparatus do you use for your RIT/RIC/FAST? Our chief wants our FAST members to use a utility (converted bread truck)to respond. It has some basic handtools, chain saw, wire stokes basket, and it will have a FAST bag with rope, webbing, and carabiners. We have a rescue pumper which has every tool the team could possibly need. Some of the team members would like to use the rescue pumper. They feel that you can't go to the call without your "toolbox." I should also mention that the chief never went through the training or even observed it so he is not "enlightened" on the concept. Your thoughts?
    Tom

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    We stopped using FAST as an acronym for an assistance team. Over the radio, it sounded like we were asking for a rather speedy apparatus. We went back to RIT county-wide.

    We have general tools (set of irons, TNT tool, pike, etc...) a rope pack, and a few other things on our RIT list. It's usually the 3rd engine or ladder company to arrive when we actually do have a working fire.
    Last edited by engine1321; 11-26-2003 at 01:55 PM.

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