1. #26
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    I can't agree with you on this one. RIT has NO OTHER DUTIES, other than assembling their equipment and standing by, hoping they are not called to work. By SOG, we permitted the RIT to set up a ground ladder to each level above grade, but even that was a stretch from a true RIT position

    2-in/2-out is NOT the same as RIT. 2-out is mandated by OSHA, yes...but OSHA does not specify any extra training or specialized equipment. A RIT has formal training on self- and firefighter-rescue, plus prepares a reasonable cache of equipment to use in case of they are needed. Again by SOG, we specified a RIT of 4 people...well above the 2-out rule.
    RIT has no other duties and requires specialized training because of your SOGs. So you are telling me that if no one is on the scene with specialized training, then you do not have a RIT team? Show me where it is required that you need specialized training for RIT.

    Plus, I was only saying that you could have a member of the RIT team do other duties. I wasn't making a recommendation or saying how it should be or how we do it, etc.

    From IAFF/IAFC 2 In/2 Out Questions and Answers

    11. Does OSHA permit the two individuals outside the hazard area to be engaged in other activities, such as incident command or fire apparatus operation (for example, pump or aerial operators)?
    OSHA requires that one of the two outside person's function is to account for and, if necessary, initiate a fire fighter rescue. Aside from this individual dedicated to tracking interior personnel, the other designated person(s) is permitted to take on other roles, such as incident commander in charge of the emergency incident, safety officer or equipment operator. However, the other designated outside person(s) cannot be assigned tasks that are critical to the safety and health of any other employee working at the incident.

    Any task that the outside fire fighter(s) performs while in standby rescue status must not interfere with the responsibility to account for those individuals in the hazard area. Any task, evolution, duty, or function being performed by the standby individual(s) must be such that the work can be abandoned, without placing any employee at additional risk, if rescue or other assistance is needed. [29 CFR 1910.134(g)(4)


    RIT teams developed because of 1910.134.

    Would you have RIT in some places without it? yes. Would it be in nearly as many places? no.

    1910.134(g)(4)
    Procedures for interior structural firefighting. In addition to the requirements set forth under paragraph (g)(3), in interior structural fires, the employer shall ensure that:

    1910.134(g)(4)(i)
    At least two employees enter the IDLH atmosphere and remain in visual or voice contact with one another at all times;

    1910.134(g)(4)(ii)
    At least two employees are located outside the IDLH atmosphere; and

    1910.134(g)(4)(iii)
    All employees engaged in interior structural firefighting use SCBAs.

    Note 1 to paragraph (g): One of the two individuals located outside the IDLH atmosphere may be assigned to an additional role, such as incident commander in charge of the emergency or safety officer, so long as this individual is able to perform assistance or rescue activities without jeopardizing the safety or health of any firefighter working at the incident.

    Note 2 to paragraph (g): Nothing in this section is meant to preclude firefighters from performing emergency rescue activities before an entire team has assembled.


    Your "2-out" is your RIT. That is why they are there.
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  2. #27
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    Adze, I didn't mean to offend you, and still don't...but I disagree with your take on RIT vs. OSHA.

    First, our training was for the whole dept. EVERYONE was expected to keep themselves out of harm's way, know how/when to call "mayday" when they didn't, and serve as a member of the RIT. Our SOG stretched what I believe is the true definition of the RIT; we let them do other minimal fireground activities. It was something we had to do to account for staffing issues. Most of the RIT policies I have scene do not let the RIT do anything operationally on the fireground.

    I am not aware of any specialized training requirement for RIT. However, that doesn't necessarily mean that is the right way to go. I know FDs that call a mutual aid company for RIT; sometimes the MA company does not even know what RIT stands for, much less have any plan of how they might extricate a firefighter in need. I would argue that doesn't really help anyone...and may actually place additional firefighters at risk should the RIT actually be needed. If a dept is going to adopt a RIT SOG, and expect members to properly use it and properly perform within the realm of it, doesn't additional training make sense? I would consider that to be "specialized training."

    While 29 CFR 1910.134 does require the 2-out, it is my opinion that this is not the same as a RIT. The 2-out is your minimum requirement to begin interior firefighting operations (excluding known life hazard). RIT is more of a systemic effort to provide a real insurance policy for firefighters. As the name says, it is to provide "rapid intervention." Rapid intervention cannot occur if a guy is placing ground ladders while the pump operator is standing in his bunker pants at the panel (because the reality is that BOTH outside guys are usually doing another job). That's just "2-out," the OSHA requirement...and a fudge on that as well.

    I know manpower is an issue for almost every FD in North America. There are realities that don't translate well onto paper or into plans, and firefighters are often forced to make difficult compromises. I would just suggest that the fire service, and its dedicated members, would benefit if we made fewer compromises when it comes to the most important people at any incident: the firefighters themselves.
    My comments are sometimes educated, sometimes informed and sometimes just blowing smoke...but they are always mine and mine alone and do not reflect upon anyone else (especially my employer).

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    I would postulate Rapid Intervention can not occur if you're lugging around TNT tools and spare air packs instead of finding a downed firefighter and getting a hoselines in place to defend that location.

    While RIT training certainly has some good benefits, it's more basic stuff like having crews ready in a reserve role, for both Engine & Truck functions, that the Chief can assign to changing conditions. One of the critical things that can change is someone gets lost or trapped -- you need firefighters to find him, you need firefighters to protect him, then you can figure out how to get him out.

    If you end with a Chief looking during a fire attack 15 minutes after the call came in, and all he has for manpower standing around is a RIT, you got some fundemental problems.

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    firemanjb, you didn't offend me


    I remember a previous discussion on RIT where people talked about training Phoenix did at an old SuperMarket or someplace like that. Didn't they find that they needed X number of people in RIT for it to be effective? Anyone know what I am talking about?
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    Here's what I found in a thread at rapidintervention.com

    The PFD stated that firefighter's operating in large buildings, like a 7500 square foot warehouse: If you extend an attack line 150', get 40' off the line and then run out of air, it will take us 22 minutes to get out of the structure.

    PFD ran this drill over 200 times with over 1144 PFD firefighters participating.

    It takes 12 firefighters to rescue one, and one in five RIT members will get into some trouble themselves.

    The average time from mayday to removal was 21 minutes.
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    Originally posted by Adze39
    Here's what I found in a thread at rapidintervention.com

    The PFD stated that firefighter's operating in large buildings, like a 7500 square foot warehouse: If you extend an attack line 150', get 40' off the line and then run out of air, it will take us 22 minutes to get out of the structure.

    PFD ran this drill over 200 times with over 1144 PFD firefighters participating.

    It takes 12 firefighters to rescue one, and one in five RIT members will get into some trouble themselves.

    The average time from mayday to removal was 21 minutes.
    And, if memory serves, I think PFD also found it takes over a dozen FFs to successfully rescue ONE brother in trouble.
    My comments are sometimes educated, sometimes informed and sometimes just blowing smoke...but they are always mine and mine alone and do not reflect upon anyone else (especially my employer).

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    Originally posted by firemanjb


    And, if memory serves, I think PFD also found it takes over a dozen FFs to successfully rescue ONE brother in trouble.
    Yes, a dozen = 12
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    Originally posted by Adze39


    Yes, a dozen = 12
    Unless the fire is in a bakery...then the "bakers dozen" rule applies...13!
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
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    Originally posted by Adze39


    Yes, a dozen = 12


    Maybe that's why my memory was so good....



    Guess that happens when you start to scan at the end of a post...
    My comments are sometimes educated, sometimes informed and sometimes just blowing smoke...but they are always mine and mine alone and do not reflect upon anyone else (especially my employer).

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    FART
    Local law enforcement near me has come up with some specialized investigative teams. One of those teams is a Fatal Accident Response Team. They thought it was a good name, until they got jackets made up with their initials...man o man, do they get their chops busted evertime they respond to a team.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Originally posted by Dalmatian90
    I would postulate Rapid Intervention can not occur if you're lugging around TNT tools and spare air packs instead of finding a downed firefighter and getting a hoselines in place to defend that location.

    While RIT training certainly has some good benefits, it's more basic stuff like having crews ready in a reserve role, for both Engine & Truck functions, that the Chief can assign to changing conditions. One of the critical things that can change is someone gets lost or trapped -- you need firefighters to find him, you need firefighters to protect him, then you can figure out how to get him out.

    If you end with a Chief looking during a fire attack 15 minutes after the call came in, and all he has for manpower standing around is a RIT, you got some fundemental problems.

    We operate RIT using the A.W.A.R.E. plan. One of the concepts of this plan is getting a hoseline between the fire and the trapped ff to buy time for extrication.

    We also split up the RIT into 3 "teams": The primary team is two lightly equipped firefighters who quickly find and assess the downed member. A support team is then called to bring in the needed equipment (such as a TNT tool and/or the RIT air pack and to assist with extrication. The apparatus driver acts as the outside support person.

    I'll agree with you that engine and truck work must come first. After all, if you put the fire out, you eliminate the need for RIT. We're definitely not forgetting about the "bread and butter" stuff but we wanted some training and equipment so we are better prepared for those oh **** moments when the fire doesn't go according to plan.

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    Originally posted by WTFD10
    I'll agree with you that engine and truck work must come first. After all, if you put the fire out, you eliminate the need for RIT.
    Our saying wasn't quite as generous:

    If you put the fire out, half your problem just went away.
    My comments are sometimes educated, sometimes informed and sometimes just blowing smoke...but they are always mine and mine alone and do not reflect upon anyone else (especially my employer).

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    http://www.rapidintervention.com/med.../november2002/

    I like the proactive concept of the safety engine rather than the traditionally reactive RIT/FAST/RIC.

    Why not make an attempt to prevent problems in addition to managing them when they do occur?

    The crew of the safety engine handles the typical RIT functions, but instead of sitting and waiting, they take action to prevent FF injuries from happening in the first place.

    I don't think throwing hand ladders and removing safety bars prevents the crew from responding to a FF-in-danger scenario.

    A very good article, imho.

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    While we are on this topic, what type of apparatus do you use for your RIT/RIC/FAST? Our chief wants our FAST members to use a utility (converted bread truck)to respond. It has some basic handtools, chain saw, wire stokes basket, and it will have a FAST bag with rope, webbing, and carabiners. We have a rescue pumper which has every tool the team could possibly need. Some of the team members would like to use the rescue pumper. They feel that you can't go to the call without your "toolbox." I should also mention that the chief never went through the training or even observed it so he is not "enlightened" on the concept. Your thoughts?
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    We stopped using FAST as an acronym for an assistance team. Over the radio, it sounded like we were asking for a rather speedy apparatus. We went back to RIT county-wide.

    We have general tools (set of irons, TNT tool, pike, etc...) a rope pack, and a few other things on our RIT list. It's usually the 3rd engine or ladder company to arrive when we actually do have a working fire.
    Last edited by engine1321; 11-26-2003 at 02:55 PM.

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    Originally posted by NYSmokey
    While we are on this topic, what type of apparatus do you use for your RIT/RIC/FAST? Our chief wants our FAST members to use a utility (converted bread truck)to respond. It has some basic handtools, chain saw, wire stokes basket, and it will have a FAST bag with rope, webbing, and carabiners. We have a rescue pumper which has every tool the team could possibly need. Some of the team members would like to use the rescue pumper. They feel that you can't go to the call without your "toolbox." I should also mention that the chief never went through the training or even observed it so he is not "enlightened" on the concept. Your thoughts?
    We found that what type of truck they come on is less important than when they get there. Our SOG designated that the third-in company would become the RIT. That gave us 2 companies to start engine and truck ops, then we set up RIT, then everything else could follow.
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    I agree with you firemanjb. I don't think anyone cares what you show up in if they are in trouble. I just wanted to see what was used across the nation.
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    Originally posted by NYSmokey
    I just wanted to see what was used across the nation.
    For us, as I mentioned, the SOG established the 3rd company as the RIT. This usually meant an engine or a truck; it could have been a squad, however.

    As I was leaving, we were applying for a FIRE grant to establish a squad that would carry specialized RIT equipment (but not exclusively)and make it available county-wide. That grant was denied. In general, though, I think most FDs benefit from assigning engines or trucks to the RIT, since those tend to get there early enough to make a difference. Having the squad show up 12 minutes into the incident and be RIT is probably too late to be really effective.
    My comments are sometimes educated, sometimes informed and sometimes just blowing smoke...but they are always mine and mine alone and do not reflect upon anyone else (especially my employer).

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    Firemanjb...

    Question/clarification:

    Our SOG designated that the third-in company would become the RIT

    Do they function merely as a standby-team, or is an "active" RIT that is also handling secondary functions like 360 surveys, raising ladders, position standby hoselines.

    I can see designating the 3rd due company to be in charge of making the scene safer, I have a hard time with them being limited to a purely standby role though -- unless your first two companies had filled 8 man cabs, there's still a lot to be done on the fireground to put the fire out.

    The faster we put the fire out, the less likely it is you'll need Fast Rics Farting Rits

    RITs should be resources added to what you're used to fighting fires with, not something that takes away from the basics.

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    Originally posted by Dalmatian90
    Our SOG designated that the third-in company would become the RIT

    Do they function merely as a standby-team, or is an "active" RIT that is also handling secondary functions like 360 surveys, raising ladders, position standby hoselines.

    I can see designating the 3rd due company to be in charge of making the scene safer, I have a hard time with them being limited to a purely standby role though -- unless your first two companies had filled 8 man cabs, there's still a lot to be done on the fireground to put the fire out.

    The faster we put the fire out, the less likely it is you'll need Fast Rics Farting Rits

    RITs should be resources added to what you're used to fighting fires with, not something that takes away from the basics.
    Our RIT SOG recommends that the RIT company perform a full walk-around of the structure as a team. The SOG also recommends that the RIT ensure that every floor above grade has at least 2 aerial or ground ladders to it. Partially exposed levels above grade can have only 1 ladder. Also, if the IC believes the 4th company is less than 90 seconds away, he can designate them the RIT rather than the 3rd company.

    They then gather their tools on a tarp and wait. They do NOT stretch lines.

    We normally had 4-man companies, so yeah, it only left 8 to handle the other jobs at the begining. However, our experience was that if we didn't make RIT a priority, it didn't get done until 20 or 30 minutes into the incident. By then, most tragedies have already happened...and you are reacting from a tremendously disadvantaged position, beecause you have no forces you can commit quickly.

    My former FD is a suburban dept, so most of our issues were with single-family dwellings. With 8 guys at the begining, the basics could get done: 2 man hose, IC, engineer, 2 man roof or search, OVM or part of 2-out and another FF for the 2-out. Busy? You bet. Did things get done as fast as we'd like? Not always. But the insurance policy for the FFs (RIT) was more important to us than speed.

    The system worked for us. While it may not work for everyone, I do believe (and it is just that, a personal belief) that waiting for the 5th or 6th company to show up is too late. If there are immediate and obvious life risks, certainly those take precedent. But slowing an advance, or even pulling out and going defensive, because I can only commit 8 guys to the supression effort....well, that bothers me less than committing 12, but then needing a RIT 'cause a roof collapsed, and not having anyone immediately ready to go.

    Buildings can be sacrificed; firefighters cannot.
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    because I can only commit 8 guys to the supression effort....well, that bothers me less than committing 12, but then needing a RIT 'cause a roof collapsed, and not having anyone immediately ready to go.

    That I don't argue with -- it's bad to commit all your resources.

    I'd still have them stretch stand-by lines 'cause putting a line between life & fire is generally the #1 lifesafety thing you can do. Not that there using them for fire attack at this point, just that the lines are pulled & flaked so they can be deployed as quickly as a pump operator can pull a handle.

    we didn't make RIT a priority, it didn't get done until 20 or 30 minutes into the incident. By then, most tragedies have already happened

    I was going to argue that. Then I actually started looking at the NIOSH reports, took first four traumatic building-fire deaths:

    F2003-03
    1350 Dispatch
    1356 On Scene
    1411(about) Ceiling Collapse.

    F2002-50
    2004 Dispatch
    2008 On Scene
    2012 Exterior Wall Collapse.

    F2002-44
    2230 Dispatch
    2233 On Scene
    2253 Roof Failed

    F2002-32
    0136 Dispatch
    0139 On Scene
    0206 First Floor Collapse

    I kinda gave up at that point. At least three of those involved delayed notifications -- two came in fully involved, and one had at least a half-hour delay from the first smell of smoke.
    Last edited by Dalmatian90; 11-26-2003 at 02:40 PM.

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    Originally posted by Dalmatian90
    That I don't argue with -- it's bad to commit all your resources.

    I'd still have them stretch stand-by lines 'cause putting a line between life & fire is generally the #1 lifesafety thing you can do. Not that there using them for fire attack at this point, just that the lines are pulled & flaked so they can be deployed as quickly as a pump operator can pull a handle.
    I know places that keep 2 or 3 guys extra on a scene, and call them RIT. In my mind, RIT is a consciencious effort to have a coordinated firefighter rescue team. So, just avoiding full commitment is not the same, to me, as having an organized RIT. As Chicago's Bob Hoff says, "RIT is the firefighter's 9-1-1."

    It would be reasonable for the RIT to stretch a dry line for themselves, although the SOG did not require it (again, we were normally in smaller buildings). Perhaps future versions of the document will include that recommendation...
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    Hehe...we're crossing our posts big time Firemanjb!

    *Especially* in smaller structures the hose line is critical.

    Part of this I'll admit goes back to my initial training and that was getting a second/third/whatever line pulled & staffed. While outside that crew's task was to be ready to go in case something went south and get the hoseline in operation ASAP. We would be rotated inside, but a couple other guys would take over on the standby line.

    With only 2 men inside on a hose and either 2 men searching or on the roof, you're gonna need more water before you can extricate, and there's a good chance you're gonna need water just to push by whatever event just happened to get to trapped firefighters.

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    Originally posted by Dalmatian90
    With only 2 men inside on a hose and either 2 men searching or on the roof, you're gonna need more water before you can extricate, and there's a good chance you're gonna need water just to push by whatever event just happened to get to trapped firefighters.
    Most of the RIT deployments I have heard were not because of a catastrophic event, but because a FF got disoriented. While we should be training to handle a catastrophic event, my impression based on anecdotes is that usually the RIT is just helping a guy find his way out.

    But, you're right about the water: put out the fire, and half your problem just went away.
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    but because a FF got disoriented. While we should be training to handle a catastrophic event, my impression based on anecdotes is that usually the RIT is just helping a guy find his way out.

    Which raises it's own host of questions.

    Do we really lose (both in terms of "track of" and LODD) that many firefighters by getting lost in small buildings and running out of air? Larger buildings, absolutely -- Worcester, the Phoenix supermarket both come to mind right off the top of my head.

    Do we train well in searching? I'll freely admit there is very few, only 4 I can think of, firefighters in my department that I would be willing to "aggressively" search with, and by aggressive I mean where you're not holding onto each other's boots or a hoseline or something. But in a case like that, training time is better spent on learning how to search away from hoselines so you don't get into trouble then learning RIT skills that are put to use because you never learned the basics. Oriented searches -- one guy in the hallway, one guy in a room (or a couple in a couple rooms) is something I very much want to get us doing, but we're not there yet.

    For that matter, do we well with "panic training" -- how well someone can calm themselves down, breath slowly, call for help, and guide help to them if they become disoriented. How well do they listen to sounds, so they can give their location relative to a hoseline they hear in operation, or distinguish the rhythmic "thud" of someone tapping a tool so you can radio them/yell to them if their getting closer or further.

    (If you get lost while on a hoseline...well, what can I say.)

    I'm not pooh-poohing RITs -- we just have to remember it's another skill, but there are other skills that have to be in place too.

    Remember the basics!

    In this whole thread, I haven't seen a defib listed as one of the tools -- but what's the leading cause of firefighter deaths? No, you're not hauling it inside, but if someone collapses on the fireground...
    Last edited by Dalmatian90; 11-26-2003 at 04:38 PM.

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