1. #1
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    Default Multi Part Rescue-Pumper question

    Oh no, another rescue pumper thread

    I had totally rejected the Idea of a rescue pumper until the 2003 grant cycle. We got our Dear John, but will finance/go out on a limb and go for it anyway.

    Question 1.How many out there run rescue pumpers?

    Question 2.Are you sacrificing any real rescue gear to run a rescue pumper?

    With our all volunteer department, daytime staffing can be pretty slim pickins. If you have 2 or 3 guys to handle the the fire/rescue end of MVA or similar incident then having everything including pump and water on one truck makes a lot of sense.

    The one thing we really want to add, but can't unless I find additional financial help is CAFS.

    In going through this process, we have reviewed multiple trucks. I tell the HME guy, I want to see an HME rescue pumper on a SFO chassis. It comes in, the only shocker is that it's not the truck pictured on the demo section of their website. Instead of a 4 man cab, its a 6 man cab. Which is bad and good. Everyone that has seen it wants the 6 man cab, vs the shorter 4 man cab. It did the best in our manuverablility test, seemed to ride the best, and the brakes and jake seemed to work best. We had a good overall impression of the truck, everything was a very clean installation. Even with the 6 man cab, and 750 gallons of water and 1500 gpm pump, the HME demo had a wheelbase of around 174".

    We also saw an E-One on a typhoon chassis, and a Darley on a Spartan Big Easy chassis. The E-One was a top mount, and had a 6 person typhoon (large) cabe, and a 214" wheel base. We have E-One's on conventional chassis, but why get a custom cab and have a wheel base that is only inches shorter than you commercial chassis. I asked about a more compact, mid mount unit. Well, most of their custom customers like the big cab. We sent him back for infomation on what would be their smallest custom cab would be. (A cyclone) It had nice features, but was too big.

    The Darley on the Spartan Chassis was a neat outfit, but what I really liked was the Darley stuff, and not the Spartan Big Easy. Huge honkin cab, with the front glass way out in front of you and the front bumper sticking out like Pamela Anderson. This particular truck had no front bumper hoseline, so what's up with the big honker on the front of the truck? We really liked the Darley AutoCAFs system, and we've always been a Darley pump department. I could see where the Polybilt body would be comparable to the HMEs stainless body. But too big, too much $$$$$. (I know, $40,000 of that is cafs)

    Question #3- Anyone out their have HMEs?
    Question #4-Specifically with a SFO chassis?
    Question #5-Pros?
    Question #6-Cons?

    We don't have a lot of HME chassis around our area, but those that have them like them. And as a group we were most impressed with HME compared to other rigs we've seen. I have a group of people with a lot of big truck, heavy machinery experience that can usually spot problems areas and everyone liked how the HME was built. But I would appreciate the input

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    We are currently running 2 units on hme medium length chassis and we love them .


    Our first unit is a 2000 hme 1871 P2 6 man tandem axle quint with a central states body and 75 foot ladder.
    This unit has been near perfect for us we only had an issue with the transmission needing reprograming after it got reprogrammed it was great and has been great since.




    Our newest unit is a 2003 hme 1871 p2 6man engine with the hme ahrensfox body mounted on it . All I can say about this unit is wow this was a great buy No problems with it so far besides a cracked windsheild that got damaged driving out here from the factory (the company replaced it no charge) .

    Both units have cummins engines and allison transmissons . The ladder has a 1500gpm hale and a 500 tank . The Engine has a 1750gpm hale(that pumps over 2200 at draft) and a 900 gallon tank . we originally ordered a 500 tank with the engine but once we filled the tank and weighed it it came out to roughly 900 gallons no problem we said we are still within legal weight for the unit and the axles still got a ways to go before being over.
    The body on our new engine overall is pretty good they did great job on it the compartments are easy to open, easy to organize, tons of space and there is more than enough light inside the compartments and around the unit .
    We speced a top mount pump. I feel like the panel is layed out great they kept it simple a lot better than our older e-one engine . The intake and discharge pressure gauges are huge i mean huge.
    My only bitch about the HME body is the anti-slip surfaces they are too agressive.

    Well I have given you some of my views from experience with HME units . I am sure there are some out there who have had bad experiences and some that have had good like me .
    Keep us posted on what you decide
    Last edited by k1500chevy97; 12-08-2003 at 07:13 PM.

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    we used to run a pseudo heavy sqaud, but like many departments we are POC and can get short during the day and we used to run this way for Injury Accidents, medic unit, heavy squad, engine. The in a past Chief's infinite wisdom ( and when we got our new engine) and changed the running order to medic unit , engine, heavy squad, (or may have been another engine first) and sure enough just like the rest of the officers were saying we had a run and no one left to bring us out the tools. So immedialtely upon return form that call we changed over the back up engine into a rescue engine.........you can look at the engine @ www.rossfordfire.com (it is engine 790, the decomissioned vehicle that became special ops was #792)

    So far it has worked out fine and it now rolls second out after the first responding medic unit ......
    Last edited by Weruj1; 12-08-2003 at 09:28 PM.
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    PFD: I think you answered your question about if you are leaving rescue equipment off the truck when you started to spec out a shorter wheelbase. Yes you can get a shorter cab thus creating as shorter wheelbase, but then again you are going to shorten the compartments as well to get the wheelbase that short also. But on the other side, you spoke about the front extended bumper being an issue also, so does the overall length or wheelbase play the vital role.

    We put in service a rescue/pumper 2 years ago and are pleased so far with its performance on both sides. It is however a larger vehicle with a larger wheelbase and we run both Class A and B foams with a front extended bumper for a quick line.

    Currently we are specing out newer engine to replace one that has a wheelbase of 153 inches. In todays market that is hard to come close to, but we agreed that anything under 175 will work for us with the enclosure on the cab nowdays. We also have shortened the thought of an extended bumper on this rig and we are having it plumbed with 2 1/2 outlet on swivel. We can utilize high rise/industrial packs for trash fires and we still can cap it for wildland fires. It also will carry foam, bur we still can get full depth and width on compartments from 2 dealers and that was 4-guys and Seagrave. The compartment size was also an issue because of the equipment we need to carry that we can not on the engine we have now.

    HME: Hey one of the depts., across the river a little North of us got a HME with smeal fire body and they use it as Pumper/rescue and it is a larger one also, but ya know what. That HME is sure nice and SMEAL did a real nice job for those folks.

    I guess you need to adress the point of, if the vehicle is going to carry more rescue than fire suppression stuff and if the compartments are going to be big enough to carry the load. Wheelbases being what they are, the other problem with newer vehicles is the width of the darn things more than the wheelbase. Ours is set up 60 % fire and 40% rescue. We carry all the saws, pumps, fans, hand tools, appliances, ; ladders, hose, radio's, lights, and such as a pumper does, but we carry cutters, spreaders, rams, torches, saws, ropes, water gear, rehab gear, cribbing, jacks, 4 point winch and the needed gear such as webbing, come-a-longs, shackles, crevices, tarps, AED, Stokes, Backboards, O2, trauma bag, splints, drug bad, and the like, and there is still room for the command desk in the cab with extra radio's and a whole bunch of portable and fixed lights.

    There are quite a few vehicles like our or ones that you can think of in your mind that work each day and do a fine job. Short handed, the way to go is rescue/pumper. 2 Birds 1 loan.


    STILL STANDING!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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    pfd3501, we had many questions when we decided to go to an Engine/Rescue. We were running a Mack engine and an E-One Rescue with all the tools. Our problem too was to make sure that we could fit all the rescue tools on without compromising anything when it came to fire suppression. Which made it even more difficult was that we have some seriously tight/narrow streets and we had to watch it. So after about two years of researching everything we finally got the unit. We too wanted a foam system on it and we decided to go with the single line internal eduction system instead of the CAFS. To make a long story short, we got the Pierce because, for one thing they built it exactly the way we wanted it and another main reason was because there turning radius (cramp angle) was great. We also went with the FDNY L-style tank to keep the hose bed low to the ground. Todays hosebeds are just getting to high. I must say that the unit turned out great, we got all the rescue tools on it and it is also an awesome fire suppression unit. So I guess you can say we got the best of both worlds. If you want any more info or pics let me know. I tried to put a pic on for you but I couldn't get it to work, too big.

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    Everything that is on our current rescue fit on the HME demo rescue pumper brought to our station, with room to spare.

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    K1500Chevy
    How do you like the central states body on the HME chassis? Did they do a good job integrating everything?

    Would you buy from central states again?
    If you want, you can shoot me an email

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    Originally posted by pfd3501
    K1500Chevy
    How do you like the central states body on the HME chassis? Did they do a good job integrating everything?

    Would you buy from central states again?
    If you want, you can shoot me an email
    Its a great unit . The central states body is built well IMO there have been no problems or design flaws with the body or ladder . Our central states is a quint mind you and your looking for a rescue engine. The lone problem we have had with the unit is the transmission would shift weird and hard that was solved by reprogramming the tranny and no problems since.
    We really didnt ask for anything special on the unit as far as the body goes besides that the generator be mounted above the pump and that it be operated from the pump panel (common) .
    Our rural district in this area is switching over to central states pumpers on freightliner chassis and they have had no problems with them so far that I hear of (going on 5 yrs).
    It seems like about half of the departments in this area are going with central states in the past few years there have been 19 units delivered to our area from central states

    We would buy from Central States again I think. The only reason we did not buy our new engine from them is because HME Inc. came in with a bid a lot and I mean a lot less than C/S and here in this area (at least on our dept) low bid wins .

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    Also If you would like I can get some pics of our compartment layout and misc body stuff on this unit .
    Also since you are leaning towards HME chassis I can send some pics of both our units chassis .
    Tell me if you would want that .

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    Originally posted by pfd3501
    Everything that is on our current rescue fit on the HME demo rescue pumper brought to our station, with room to spare.
    Yea we noticed that our HME bodied pumper has about three times the space of our older pumpers

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    Default Re: Multi Part Rescue-Pumper question

    Originally posted by pfd3501
    I tell the HME guy, I want to see an HME rescue pumper on a SFO chassis. It comes in, the only shocker is that it's not the truck pictured on the demo section of their website. Instead of a 4 man cab, its a 6 man cab. Which is bad and good. Everyone that has seen it wants the 6 man cab, vs the shorter 4 man cab. It did the best in our manuverablility test, seemed to ride the best, and the brakes and jake seemed to work best. We had a good overall impression of the truck, everything was a very clean installation. Even with the 6 man cab, and 750 gallons of water and 1500 gpm pump, the HME demo had a wheelbase of around 174".

    Sorry to kick this back up but which truck did you see? Do you have a link to the site ?

    there is a truck that is similar to that sfo they have on their website . it is out of apex , sc

    Here is more information on that truck ..... http://apexvfd.org/ you know the whole drill go down to apparatus then go to engine 2
    If you are wanting a truck identical or similar to that I would suggest contacting someone from that dept and asking some questions.

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    I've went through the deliveries section on the HME website, tracked down station phone#s and made some phone calls. About 90-95% very favorable to HME. In viewing Spartan Big Easy, HME SFO, and E-One Typhoon, Layout, ease of operation, overall impression the HME has been the best with everyone on our department. They've been driven by everyone elegible to drive trucks on our department.

    They add about 10" to make the SFO a 10 man cab. The SFO stands for Short Front Overhang, and it has the best front forward visiblilty. Why spend 10-20k more for a custom chassis vs a commercial chassis and have the the cab and bumper stick out so much that it limits handling in tight quarters?

    In speaking with personnel from APEX, they like their HME and would like more SFOs. Their's gets a workout.

    Attached is the demo HME SFO that was at our department. It added about 10" to the wheelbase to give 2 more SCBA seats. Not exactly what we need for this truck.
    Attached Images Attached Images  

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    You have to hand it to Apex, they even got the color right!!

    We plan for the standard SFO low roof 4man cab and:

    500 gallon tank This will allow the back compartments to be full width

    1000gpm pump

    Foampro A foam system, unless I can get some of the local industry to pony up for CAFS

    8KW Onan hydraulic generator

    OnSpot chains

    Front Bumper discharge

    Ladder and stokes basket storage through/above tank

    Because this is a rescue truck with some water, were not getting carried away with tank capacity. We might go up to a 1250 pump, in case we completely combine the rescue and front line pumper (not likely)

    Loaded or empty, the demo SFO handled better than the other trucks.
    Attached Images Attached Images  

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    Heres a couple links i got just in case you were intrested in seeing more from hme .
    These are more in detail pics of the central states quint and hme inc engine

    http://ImageEvent.com/k1500chevy97/ladder18
    http://ImageEvent.com/k1500chevy97/engine11

    Most of these pics were taken when the new engine arrived and we were switching over equipment on both trucks so the compartments look kinda bare

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    Since overall size seams to be of concern with your rescue-pumper, then you will probably have to leave off some equipement. However, this doesn't necessarily mean that you won't be able to handle your rescue situations. More than likely you'll be able to handle most of your MVAs and basic rescue situations just fine. Its the more rare technical rescues that you would possibly be underequiped for.

    Have you considered a rear-mount rescue-pumper. You can get lots of space in a compact size.
    Mark
    Firefighter / Paramedic
    IAFF Local 10

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    mstclair

    Everything on our current walk in rescue truck fit on the HME demo with room to spare. Something to remember about a walk in rescue with no outside compartments is that the aisle is wasted space. The rescue box on the HME has deeper storage area than our current truck, and the space used by the aisleway is where the tank and ladder storage will be.

    A rough layout for the new truck
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    We have all front line trucks as Rescue/Pumpers, one is a 1994 Hme/Central States with a medium four door with a 186 inch wheel base it has full rescue equipment, cascade, generator, light tower, plus all equipment for firefighting, alot of crap on one truck. on your truck do not forget it needs to be pumper also.

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    Lightbulb RESCUE PUMPER ?

    WE HAVE A COMMITTEE (11 FROM SURPRESSION,1 FROM ADMENISTRATION)THAT WAS TO DEVELOP SPECIFICATIONS FOR OUR THIRD R/P, ALL WENT WELL UNTILL THE PERSON IN CHARGE OF THE COMMITTEE DESOLVED IT AND SENT OUT SPECS TO THE MANUFACTURES ACCORDING TO HIS OWN VIEWS.ONE OF OUR ITEMS WAS TO HAVE THE SPEED LAY TRAYS ,2-1 3/4"AND 1-2" LINE STACKED IN FRONT OF THE PUMP FOR EASY LOADING NOW THE STACKED LAYS ARE SPECKED BETWEEN THE PUMP AND THE REAR COMPARTMENTS SO THAT THE PUMP CAN BE ACCESSED WHEN THE CAB IS TILTED FORWARD. WITH PROBLEMS OF PIPING REAR DISCHARGES ,FOAM LINES,TANK TO PUMP ,ETC... WE HAVE FOUND NO MANUFACTURER THAT WILL CONSIDER THAT CONFIGUATION ,BUT THE SPECS WILL NOT BE CHANGED BY THOSE IN CHARGE. ANOTHER ITEM WAS TO HAVE A HYDRAULIC POWER UNIT THAT COULD FLOW TO TWO OR MORE EXTRICATION TOOLS AT A TIME, THAT WAS SHOT DOWN FOR SPLITTERS (HOMEMADE) GOING THROUGH MORE LINES TO MORE SPLITTERS, IN OTHER WORDS SPAGHETTI ,HAS ANY ONE SEEN A TRUCK LIKE THIS AND IF SO HAS IT WORKED.

    http://MOSSCAPTFF@MSN.COM

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    Rescue pumper with speed lays in front of pump
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    Any new news on this pfd3501?

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    Thought I would join in this topic to get some ideas, and maybe pass along a little information, as we are in the process of creating/specifying/contracting for a Rescue-Engine awarded from a FEMA grant this year.

    I talked to a few truck builders while preparing the grant, but they didn't really want to work with me too much. No money in hand at the time, so they didn't really seem that interested. So I basically came up with a "swiss-army knife" apparatus to handle most all EMS, MVCs, Haz-Mat and basic RIT duties. Now, we are trying to find the truck builder that can build one to meet our needs - carry 5-6 men, have ample/well-designed compartment space, and the ability to carry and pump water. Sounds easy enough, right?

    What we have found is that a custom chassis is really not that much more expensive than a commercial ($10-12k). I'm talking the basic custom, nothing fancy or large, (6 man cab). Our feeling is that the custom chassis is more desirable because it is built for long life, whereas the commercial is not. The customs are safer for the duty they will see, and most of all, they have a shorter wheelbase.

    So far, E-One can put us in a Typhoon Chassis with a pumper body in our price range. Problems include: compartment space very small, virtually no ability to change the body configuration, and the whole idea of "here it is, take it or leave it".

    Crimson Fire talks like they could build the truck the way we want it, if their manufacturing is willing. Big Easy chassis, but a little more expensive than E-One. Their options seem to be more expensive though.

    Preliminary discussions with Ferrara hint to the ability of a custom chassis, body the way we want, and options we like within our price range, but we'll see next week.

    This is our first new truck, ever, and we are in unchartered territory. I hope that when all is said and done, I will look back at this and say it was fun, but right now it is very overwhelming, nerve-wracking, and sleep-depriving.
    Grant me the strength to change things I can, accept what I can't, and to know the difference.

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    Originally posted by k1500chevy97
    Any new news on this pfd3501?
    We're getting closer
    It stalled a little at the end of 03, now the different sales reps are coming back out of hiding.

    Our comittee has settled on
    175 max wheelbase
    4 or 5 man tilt custom cab with 3-4 scba seats
    330HP Cummins w/Jake
    3060 Allison
    8KW Onan Hydraulic PTO generator
    Foampro 2001 A foam system
    Onspot chains
    A/C
    front bumper line for 100 ft 1-3/4
    Full Height/Full depth compartments both sides with roll up doors

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    Well that looks like a good start

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    farmun: don't settle, especially in compartment space and configuration. If that takes you back to a commercial chassis b/c of cost, then I'd do it. The truck won't do you any good if you can't carry what you need it to. Drop me an email offline if you want. I'll give you a few tips for stretching bucks. I've got a few tricks up my sleeve that I used on some sales reps before. Remember, this truck has to make it 20 years, and you don't want to be unhappy with it when it comes in. There's a way to do what you want at the price you want. Might require more digging, but it can be done.

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    farmun:
    I might not have BCs tricks, but my committee has looked at a lot of rescue engines and have seen a very wide range of prices.

    If you care to drop a line, I can give you some leads

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