1. #1
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    Cool Check This Video Out....

    Our sister company in the next town to the west of us had a housefire on Friday, 5 DEC 2003. One of the units had a dashmounted video system, and they caught most of the fire.

    Several companies responded, and was a mix of career and volunteer responders.

    If you have a highspeed connection/download capability, and have RealPlayer on your system, it's worth the few minutes just to check it out.

    I wasn't there, so I won't repeat some of the Monday-morning quarterbacking that I've heard. I'll let you see, and make your up your own mind as to how it went. I'd be interested in any other listers who watch it, for them to post their thoughts...

    www.ashburnfirerescue.org

    Go to "Pictures"
    Click on "Garage Fire"

    It should load from there.

    Stay safe!
    HazMat
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  2. #2
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    :wow: *Great* video!

    Now...we've discussed garage fires here for Strategy & Tactics several times...

    I know the old line, "Attack from the unburned side."

    Which I don't support on garage fires like this -- pull up, no smoke coming from the house i.e. the door between the garage and house is intact. Why open it? Blitz the garage, knock down the fire, the interior wall being intact will keep any major extension from happening, and then overhaul. Pull a 2.5" line with a big nozzle (250-300gpm), hit the fire hard up high where all that heat is and then move down. Fire isn't vented through the roof, so steam will force down then out the garage door -- this is an excellent situation here for a fast knockdown with minimum amount of water used, 15-30 seconds to darken down, and a couple minutes you're ready to have a crew bring up the 1.75" to complete extinguishment and overhaul.

    Without a quick knockdown, while getting an interior in and around to attack from the unburned side, the fire caught the 2nd floor exterior siding on fire, and extended through the eaves into the attic and got the attic going.

    It's seldom you get video this great for lessons learned & reinforced.

    ------------------------
    And before Ashburn figures I'm picking on them...the fire was still controlled and the roof stayed up. I have video of a m/a fire that *will* not go on the internet -- around the station we call it the video of what not to do, since just about everything you could've done to make a bad fire worse was done, and done by several departments including ours. But watching good videos of fires that went poorly you can show guys what we need to be careful of/think to do different next time.

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    I'm not an FF yet, still in the Essentials class, so this is not the "voice of experience", but... Assuming everyone is known out of the house, I would think that the 1st engine co. gets a hoseline inside and tries to attack from the interior garage entrance (which they seem to be doing). Meanwhile, if there's someone else available, how about someone with another preconnect using, say, a 30-degree fog from the outside, spraying above the fire to prevent autoexposure. (Work from an angle so that burning stuff isn't pushed onto you by the interior crew when they open up.) 1st truck co heads upstairs and checks for extension. Next engine co. follows them up with a hoseline.

    I can't tell whether the fire spread up through the ceiling or up over the outside of the garage, or how many people they had and when to accomplish everything. Are there any more details available?

    (Add: and now I see Dalmation90's reply. That makes a lot of sense to my sub-rookie mind, too.)
    Last edited by sts060; 12-10-2003 at 04:43 PM.

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    I think this is one of those cases where hitting the garage from the outside then going in to look for extension would be best.
    If the garage door was closed I would have gone in like on the video, with the hopes that I would stop extension to the rest of the structure.
    Do you have any more details on the fire?

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    Ya know it's funny ADSN, everytime I think of "Garage Fire" I think of it with the door open, with the flames rolling out like this!

    Yep, if the door was closed going in through the inside would be fine, just like any other room & contents fire (albeit one big room with one big fire load!). Then again, the fire wouldn't be cooking at this point without the ventilation provided by the door being up.

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    I have to agree with everthing you said Dalmation90. I too would have had a first line attack the main body of the fire , but would have the second line go directly inside to stop any extension. (otherwise they are not to operate, don't want opposing lines), they would just keep control of that door that leads to the garage.

    It seems that this fire spread because of autoexposure, which would of been cured by a quick knockdown from the driveway with a large caliber stream= 2.5" (solid bore )

  7. #7
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    Yep 55.

    #1 Officer-in-Charge looks inside the house for extension, takes a look out back to make sure there isn't any surprises like a 250# propane tank.

    #2 Hit fire with the 2.5" or other big line

    #3 Crew to 1st floor w/ dry 1.75" & hook to check for extension in ceiling (we'll worry about the wall from the burned side later). They do a quick check to make sure basement isn't extension/origin (both unlikely here but you need to know), flip the main circuit breaker.

    #4 Preferably second 1.75" to the 2nd floor, again with a hook and check for extension. First floor team could do this in a pinch after checking the basement, but they'd have nobody watching their rears. Would stink to be putting out the attic fire and then realize you have fire coming up the stairs from the 1st floor ceiling...

    #5 Have another officer do a 360, control gas utilities if any while he's at it.

    #6 Move-up the 2.5" to mop up pockets of fire.

    Hmmm, we should be in pretty good shape -- hopefully the guys inside report little to no extension, utilities are controlled. Fire's knocked down. Time to look at any salvage & smoke removal issues in the main house, assess the structural integrity of the garage. Assign a crew to take a 1.75" into the garage and some tools to overhaul. Make sure I have 2-3-4 guys always in a "ready to go" status manning the backup line (what was originally the 2.5" attack line) in case something unexpected happens. No need for a dedicated RIT at this point -- fire's under control and we're working in a relatively safe area in a relatively controlled environment (if the garage is questionable, drown it until a backhoe arrives). In my area, make sure we've setup a tanker fill site and the mutual aid companies know where it is, although truth is we're probably only looking at a couple small tankers worth of water unless we have to do hydraulic overhaul. OK, issue the "Under Control, remaining on scene for a while for overhaul."

    Light a cigar, and think to yourself, "I think this is what they call a bread & butter fire."

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    I agree with Dal and 55.... An aggressive interior attack is where it is at with this one and then the second line to second floor. In a fire of this magnitude on arrival the probability of extension above is 100% and you can bet money that the cheap interior door that seperates the garage from the house has failed causing extension on floor 1.

    Going at it from the outside unless you blitz it with the deck gone is gonna drive it throught the house....and even with the deck gun it is a calculated risk,.....

    Good job by my buddies in Loudoun County.....
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    First line must be placed between the fire and the open stairwell to the second floor to protect any trapped occupants and brothers going to the 2nd floor. This necessitates the line going through the front door no matter how tempting it is to hit it from the outside.

    I saw a car in the driveway and 1 in the garage. I saw snow on the ground, it is a Friday-are the kids at school or is it a snow day...either way there is a very good chance somebody is home.

    I saw smoke coming from the rear of the structure at the beginning of the video and you don't know if the interior garage door is open or not. Also, it looked like the wind was a definite factor in the beginning of the job.

    My 2 cents.
    Kevin M. Fitzhenry
    Captain, Rescue Company 1
    City of Bayonne (NJ) Fire Department

  10. #10
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    I agree, this one screamed for a quick knockdown from the outside. This would have greatly reduced the amount of extension, and probably given subsequent interior crews a better chance of putting out any fire found inside.
    "We shouldn't be opening firehouses in Baghdad and closing them in New York City."

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  11. #11
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    wow! That video is amazing!

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    Yeah, I think if they had gotten a quick knockdown on the garage then they wouldn't have had to deal wih the rest of house. It looked like while they were stretching lines in for a conventional attack, the fire got ahead and jumped floors, then they had to deal with the rest of the house.

    Good video

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    It's hard to tell for sure from the edited video, but it seems like one problem was a delay in getting water going. If there's a chance someone is inside this thing, I'm definitely going in, if I can.

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    Default Thanks Tanker

    Thanks for providing a great chance for everyone to have what has been intelligent discussion.

    It's good to see constructive ideas being exchanged!

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    The officer on scene taking a look inside is the surest way to see if there's interior extension. There's no signs of it from the video -- didn't see any smoke coming out the front door when it was open, nothing from the eves, etc.

    NOW, another good lesson from the tape -- this was a combo department, heck even their volunteers do duty shifts. Add another three minutes to the timeline had you needed to wait for volunteers to get to the station first (or for that matter if you where career and the 1st due Engine was out on a medical call already), and you would've pulled up to this house with the garage going plus the auto-exposure up the outside and into the attic already.

    That scenario would be a lot of fire for a 3 or 4 man Engine to handle -- I'd still knock down the garage as 1st priority since that's the biggest life hazard, that's the fire if any that's blocking someone's escape, and that's the fire that would trap you if you tried to hit the attic. Kinda a bitch, 'cause you can't attack the attic safely from the inside until the garage is knocked down, and the longer the attic burns the more dangerous that becomes to work under later. I'm thinking deck gun hits one, 2.5" throws water at the other (hopefully you have a hydrant!).

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    was it just me or did any body else see the s*** rocketing out of the garage!!!!!!
    IF YOU FOLLOW ALL OF THE RULES YOU MISS ALL OF THE FUN.

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  17. #17
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    Sure that wasn't the hose stream you saw coming out a couple times???

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    Thumbs up

    Guys, you are all right, you must consider your rescue priority first, but if theres nothing viable to rescue when you get there whats it worth. I hit the garage first. Also, I didnt see on the video RIT, they couldve been on scene and manpower looked sparce, maybe they were in staging off screen. Anyway, heres an experience I had. 10 years ago I learned the hard way which attack took priority..same situation, but garage on sect 4 side(lt) below grade, ranch 1 1.5 story with basement. UOA, garage was cooking, fire rolling just like video all the way to eaves, smoke showing from opposite side eave sect 5 (rt). H/o says she dont know where her son is...so I ordered my crew (1st in during helluva storm) and lonely for a while to pull 1 1.5 to the front door and find the attic with intentions of putting the 2.5 on the garage simulateously, well due to multiple general alarms during the storm, my next truck was 8 minutes away, so we went in the front door (ground level) center of house, to find the stairwell, immediate blackness zero visibility, intense heat, as you can imagine. We backed out of the foyer and went to the garage, by then my engineer had pulled the 2.5 and we flowed all on garage, while doing so the garage lit up, a hydrant was 300 ft away but we had no one to catch it yet, eventually a mutual aid co. brought us the line and another company arrived to continue interior attack. The moral is : BE CONSCIOUS OF RESCUE NEEDS, BUT HIT THE DAMN GARAGE FIRST!!!!Anyway, after a couple of hours trying to fight fire and dodge lightining (which started the fire jumping from a pine tree) we burnt a 4000 sq fter to the foundation. Hey the good news is no one got hurt. Oh the boy was a the park down the road....Ive been in, paid for 17 years and thats one lesson I will never forget. Be careful and watch after each other FIRST!

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    ...so I ordered my crew (1st in during helluva storm) and lonely for a while to pull 1 1.5 to the front door and find the attic with intentions of putting the 2.5 on the garage simulateously,
    I don't think I'd be too happy if I were inside while someone was unloading a 2 1/2 on the fire from the outside.

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    Let's see....

    Moose - Dalmation is right. What you see coming from the garage is the hosestream from the guys inside.

    Fitz - yes, the cars were in the garage & driveway - not sure who was home or their disposition. The kids were out of school that day, as it had just finished up a heck of a snowblast in the early hours of that morning.

    Glad everybody liked the vid, and I'm still trying to get more details on it. (I'm going to see if I can get a copy of the raw tape, just to have a copy of it...)

    J
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    Hey Nozzleman..we were out before the 2.5 began flowing however, in that scenario, as I stated, the garage was below grade on the left side/end of the house (or at basement level), our efforts to access the attic would "probably" not be adversely affected with us 2 levels above the garage. I see your point however about flowing exterior lines while interior crews are inside.

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    In discussing it with some of my coworkers, we agreed to really hit the garage hard and fast ..............I would have to see the video again ...but hows about the deck gun from the street ? or at least lead off with the 2.5 in smooth bore. In watching the video only once, I was trying to figure out if it just got away from them or if they didnt get it quick enough, I have always told our people that it is a race to the attic ! I certainly would have had the next (preferably engine )crew get in the house and begin looking to extension. I will re watch the video again tonight and perhaps have diffrent or additional thoughts. None the less ....greta way to learn and such a great idea.
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  23. #23
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    The deck gun I don't *think* would've worked for my department -- we have a 1200 gallon booster tank, so the truck is pretty high. Looks pretty flat from the road to the garage -- I don't think our deck gun would've had a good angle to knock down the fire.

    If the house was 3/4/5 feet higher than the road, we might have a shot. SOP on our deck gun gives us 600gpm smoothbore, and I'm thinking that for a minute would've made short work if we had a good angle to hit the whole ceiling -- knock down that fire, rain down on whatevers burning below. Could've easily given a 5 second hit to the outside 2nd floor to knock down the vinyl siding burning had it already caught. And still left us with 600 gallons for the 1.75" line to start the mop up with.

    We play a game of flow in the fire service sometimes, my nozzle's bigger than yours. Flow is important, but actually putting the wet stuff on red stuff is more critical -- 95gpm from an 1.5" hitting fire is a lot more effective than 200gpm from a 1.75" going into smoke. Fire like this I compromise a bit -- I want more than an 1.75" gonna give me, but I want the flexibility of a handline to position it correctly. 2" or 2.5", flow up in the 250-300gpm range. Set yourself, hit it, darken down, shut the knob, reposition & repeat. More flexible than our deck gun or bomb line, more flow than the easier to move small handlines.

    Just a decision the officer-in-charge has to make.

  24. #24
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    A few months ago, our department ran on a meth lab that exploded in the garage of a single-level wood frame home. When the first engine arrived, they found the garage fully involved with obvious extension into the living area. They did the blitz thing with the deck gun and knocked the main body of the fire out. That allowed them to quickly deal with the extension in the adjoining living room and attic space. The entire home (~1300 sq. ft) received either smoke and/or heat damage, but the quick knockdown allowed the salvage of belongings from rooms in close proximity to the garage.

    If manpower is an issue, you have to hit the seat of the fire as quickly as possible. When I watched the video and saw the hose line go in through the front door, I thought they were doing a good job of playing it by the textbook... And a textbook attack is fine if it works. However, it seems that they never got a handle on the garage fire itself. The video is 2:44. As late as 2:30 (and after fire spread to other levels) you can still fire in the garage.

    In my own little world, we'd pull up on that fire, pull a 2.5" line because of the volume of fire. We'd knock down the fire in the garage from the outside because it's already extending on the exterior of the home. With the bulk of the fire out, we could use smaller handlines to fight any fire that has extended into the home.

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