Thread: Advice on TIC's

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    Default Advice on TIC's

    We are currently evaluating three different TIC"s; the MSA Evolution 5000, the ISG K-1000, and the Scott Eagle(?). Does anyone have any experience with any of these? Thoughts, gripes, or praise would be appreciated.

    Capt. T. Matthews
    SLFD

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    Capt Matthews,

    You may already be aware of it, but in case your not, there is a lot of information on Thermal Imagers in the TI Topic under Technology and Communications.
    http://cms.firehouse.com/forums2/for...hp?forumid=332

    You will need to change the settings to display the topics from the past, if you go back and look at this year and last year there is a lot of info there.

    On your question, interesting choice of cameras, the MSA 5000 and the ISG K-1000 are "Mini Cams" with similar technology (VOX Microbolometer), but the Scott Eagle is a "Full Size Cam" with different technology (BST or VOX Microbolometer depending on the model). When you review your units make sure you are comparing an apple to an apple, and not an apple to an orange.

    VOX (Vanadium Oxide) Microbolometers, 320x240 or 160x120 FPA
    "Mini-Cams" - Bullard T3 Max, ISG K-1000, MSA Evolution 50000
    "Full Size Cams" - Bullard MX, Cairns Viper, E2V Argus 3, ICC FIREOPTIC, MSA Evolution 4000, Scott Eagle 160

    AS (Amorphous Silicon) Microbolometers, Small 160x120 FPA
    "Mini-Cams" - Bullard T3 Lite, ISG K-80, Sage Helmet Cam

    BST (Barium Strontium Titinate), Large 320 x 240 FPA
    Bullard TIx, E2V Argus 3, ISG K-90, ISI Navigator & Surveyor, MSA Evolution 3000, Scott Eagle I

    If your not sure about what is the difference between BST or Microbolometer, 320x240 versus 160x120, or any of the other technical "Mumbo Jumbo" then I would recommend the following:
    http://thermalimager.bullard.com/tec...Eval/index.cfm
    http://thermalimager.bullard.com/why...comparison.cfm
    http://www.bullard.com/downloads/thermalIndex2.cfm
    I am not pushing Bullard, it is just a good place to get information.

    You can also find the links to all of the manufacturers and some other useful info at:
    http://thermalimager.bullard.com/links/index.cfm

    Finally when you talk to other users about what they like and don't like, make sure you get SPECIFIC and FACTUAL information not just someones "half baked" opinion.

    If I can help anyone out on Thermal Imaging drop me an email.

    Mike Richardson
    Captain, Training Officer
    St Matthews FD, KY
    torichardson@hotmail.com

    PS: DON'T FORGET THE TRAINING - www.safe-ir.com
    Last edited by torichardson; 12-17-2003 at 05:25 PM.

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    Mike, I can't speak for Capt. Mathews, but my guess is the Eagle he refers to is the 160. Your info as usual is accurate and informative, but I should point out that the Eagle Imager 160 is also a vox 160 x 120 format with a "larger than some others" display screen, closer in size to screens seen in the larger format units. Considering the sensor and the overall weight it is still probably closer related to the (small-format) cameras you mention. I really liked your last piece of advice, I hope many firefighters consider it's importance, when acquiring a TIC. Stay safe and enjoy the Holidays

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    torichardson,
    Thanks for the heads-up. There are so many different models and differing technologies out there, it's been a little confusing. During the demo, we had no less than SIX different reps with six different cameras, each explaining their products. We narrowed down the field the best we could, and now wish to further test and research them. Any help we can find will be welcomed!!

    Slainte,
    T. Matthews
    Capt. SLFD

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    We currently have a ISG K-80. We field tested all the availible models in some training burns and that is the one we picked. We are now ordering a K-1000 for one of our other trucks. We have had really good luck with our ISG....its all up to preference. My only suggestion is stay away from helmet mounted ones.....our neighboring dept has one and they hate it. They are looking at buying a ISG K-1000 after doing some training with us and they loved our K-80.
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    Jan version of Firehouse has a short article about TICS....basically it very briefly sums up the different technoligies and the pitfalls associated with TIC's in general

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    Originally posted by engine23ccvfd
    Jan version of Firehouse has a short article about TICS....basically it very briefly sums up the different technoligies and the pitfalls associated with TIC's in general
    Without trying to toot my own horn, there are about a half-dozen articles in the MembersZone about TI usage, selection and technologies. The DEC 03 Fire Engineering has an article on the potential pitfalls of temperature measurement.

    As many others advise, do plenty of research and ask plenty of questions.

    jonathan_bastian@bullard.com
    My comments are sometimes educated, sometimes informed and sometimes just blowing smoke...but they are always mine and mine alone and do not reflect upon anyone else (especially my employer).

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    It used to be real easy when it came to selecting a thermal imager because there were only 2 units to choose from, if you wanted a handheld you got a MSA Argus, if you wanted a helmet mount you got a Cairns IRIS. Now almost 10 years later there are at least 9 manufacturers and over 15 units to choose from.

    So how do you decide which one? Contrary to what many people will say I think that is one question where there is no real quick or easy answer.

    My thoughts on doing the best you can:
    Do Your Homework! - 6-7 years ago information on Fire Service Thermal Imaging basically did not exist. Then in 1995 S. Woodworth aka "Woody" started the magazine articles in the US, others followed in the late 1990's, I put out about 20 articles in the early 2000's, and others such as J. Bastian are at it today. As such there is actually a lot of information out there for you to learn from. You can get at these articles by going through back magazine issues or checking Bullard's website at
    http://thermalimager.bullard.com/tec...esArticles.cfm
    You can also educate yourself by going to conferences like Firehouse Expo and FDIC, talking to other EDUCATED users, and using these forums. It is very important that you educate yourself, if you leave your education process up to the TIC Sales Force chances are you will learn things the way they want you to. Once you understand the technology then you can get a better understanding of the differences and what will work best for your needs.

    What do you REALLY need? - ask yourself this question long before you ever talk to TIC sales person. Thermal imagers were brought into the Fire Service so we could see through smoke, now they tell you temperatures, turn colors, and do all kinds of other things. When you consider the different types of technology (BST, VOX, AS) and additional features (Transmitters, Temp Measure, Video Overlay, etc) make sure they are something that you can really use and they are not just a "bell or whistle". Chrome and Gold Leaf may look good on a fire truck but they don't make the fire go out any quicker. Likewise most additional features on TICs are misused, misunderstood, not used, or they don't work as promised. Also don't get caught up in the "old or new technology" arguments. BST may be "old technology" by some peoples arguments, but the bottom line is it will still see through the smoke and let you make a rescue.

    Can you use it at 03:00 AM in a burning building in full turnout gear with SCBA? - find the one person in your Dept who can't ever seem to do anything right and see if they can use the TIC. If it is too complicated for them, then it will probably be too complicated for everyone else when "the stuff hits the fan". Once again watch out for features that require an instructional manual and interpreter to figure out. Remember the "KISS" (Keep it simple stupid!) principle usually works best in Firefighting.

    Seeing is believing! - Don't take someone elseís word for it if you can see it or do it yourself. If a manufacturer makes a claim that it is water resistant make them get it wet. Most importantly evaluate the units as you will use them. Don't stand in the station or Chief's office and look at handprints on the wall. Get out in full Turnout Gear and SCBA, crawl with them, climb ladders with them, do anything you would normally do. Obviously you should also get them into a live burn if you can.

    Talk to others Ė see what other users have to say, and donít forget to ask about things like service and support. Some Reps and Manufacturers support their products very well which is very important with a high dollar technical item like a TIC. Others donít do such a good job. Get multiple opinions and you can probably figure out pretty quickly who is who. Remember every Rep or Manufacturer has had a problem with a TIC, the real issue is how well did they handle it? Also be cautious of opinions that come from people who never get the units off the truck and use them. Make sure any report you get from a user is based on practical real world facts.

    It is a lot of work, but it will pay off in the end. If you simply listen to opinions and sales pitches chances are you will not get what you really want or need.

    Finally, remember there are at least 3-4 people on these forums who can help you out if you have a question, take advantage of them if you need to.

    Good Luck, Be Safe,
    Mike Richardson
    Captain, Training Officer
    St Matthews FD, KY
    ďaka TImanĒ

    PS: DO NOT FORGET THE TRAINING!!!!! www.safe-ir.com
    Regardless of what unit you buy if you do not get training you will not be able to use the unit effectively or worse someone will misuse the technology and get themselves or others injured or killed!

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    Default my 1 cent...

    I wish I could help out more, but my department
    uses the Bullard and I have heard positive
    feedback about them. I havent heard any reports
    of breakdown, etc.

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    We are currently testing the Scott Eagle II and the Scott 160. As in earlier posts on TICs Firemanjb has indicated that Scott is no longer marketing the EagleII, and we have found this to be true so we are a little hesitant to puchase this model because we can't get a firm commitment from Scott as to the warranty on this camera. If you go on FLIR website and I don't have that site at hand you will see the exact same camera as the Eagle II as they are the company that makes the Eagle for Scott. Lke firemanjb says ask lots of question and question every thing abut the camera.

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    Mike, once again, right-on! That is definately most usefull information about Q's & A's on TICS. I hope people are paying close attention to your advice. Stay safe all! John F.

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    Thanks John, hope you and the other John (Cetrino) are staying out of trouble and staying warm in the great white north.

    For those of you who don't know, John has been dragging around a TIC with Boston FD for over 6 years and he has also been traveling around the country with SAFE-IR for the past few years doing TIC training with all kinds of Depts and TICs. As such, if you have questions he is one of those people who can give you some info that comes from first hand knowledge and experience.

    John, please tell Cetrino I said Hello, and both of you guys Stay Safe, and Happy Holidays. See everyone soon at FDIC.

    Mike Richardson
    Captain, Training Officer
    St Matthews FD, KY
    "aka TIman"

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    All sound advice, I would also like to thank all those who have been giving me advice on TICs for the last few months. With your input I have narrowed down our choice to the MSA Evolution 5000 and the excellent and proven Bullard T3 series.

    One thing I will say is that it is incredibly difficult for a small department to get a fair chance to evaluate a TIC. Most vendors simply dont care if my little department exists or not. They have bigger fish to fry. Fine for them, but these decisions will affect our department for at least the next decade, maybe more.

    I do get very tired of the sale pitch BS. They assume because we are a small rural VFD that we are ignorant and will fall for any sales pitch.

    Not going to happen, we have put in a lot of research time, but our main downfall is in lack of hands on evaluation. No matter what we try, so far we have not been able to get a demo unit from any vendor or for any type of camera. I am still hopefull that within this month we will get a side by side comparison of the MSA and Bullard units. If not we are going to have to go on what we have learned so far, and on speculation as to which would be more ergonomic. It is pretty much impossible for us to evaluate which is the better performer without getting a hands on, but we can take a department pole and figure out which unit the guys would sooner work with as far as ergonomics goes.

    This is another aspect that seems to be repeated all the time. "Get what you would prefer working with, climb ladders, crawl around, burn up some rubbish and get dirty."

    Seems to my that by going with this rule of thumb, you would right away rule out the large formate TICs which are bulky and awkward compared to the mini cams. Especialy when you add a gear keeper to keep the mini cam attached and retracted when you need both hands.

    But then again, along those lines of though, you would rule out the mini cams again in favor of the helmet mounted units. You would also rule out 2 of the helmet mounted units because they do not let you use your eyes without viewing the TIC display only.

    This leaves you with only one TIC choice if you are going with the egronomics/convience of use theory. The Fire Warrior Helmet mount TIC lets you use both hands freely, you can use your regular vision or the TIC view at will, it is small, light, and stays out of the way.

    I still think we are going with the MSA 5000 or Bullard T3, but if we could get a Fire Warrior for every helmet, then that would be the way to go IMO.

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    Question Help on ISI

    I need some help. I just did a demo on TICs at our station. We saw an ISI Surveyor, MSA 4000, and a MSA 5000. Everyone liked the ISI Surveyor. We are going to do a live burn with Bullard, MSA, and ISI. My questions are: Has anybody bought an ISI and what is their experience with it? The Surveyor and the ISG K-90 have a rubber piece to hold against your SCBA. How often is the smoke so bad you need to put it up against your SCBA to see? All your help is greatly appreciated.

    Matt

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    Default Re: Help on ISI

    Originally posted by sgvfccaptain
    I need some help. I just did a demo on TICs at our station. We saw an ISI Surveyor, MSA 4000, and a MSA 5000. Everyone liked the ISI Surveyor. We are going to do a live burn with Bullard, MSA, and ISI. My questions are: Has anybody bought an ISI and what is their experience with it? The Surveyor and the ISG K-90 have a rubber piece to hold against your SCBA. How often is the smoke so bad you need to put it up against your SCBA to see? All your help is greatly appreciated.

    Matt
    For reliability: ask for references. This is a good start, but ask for nearby FDs that have used the TI in question. Ask about performance, reliability, battery life, ease of use and repair/service.

    On smoke: I do not claim to be the world's most experienced firefighter, but I have played with plenty of imagers in plenty of environments. I can say that I have never been in smoke so dense that the user needed to place the TI next to his facepiece to see. There was one time, however, with 3 tires burning, when it was "iffy".... But, I haven't been in too many structure fires stoked by tires. Also, consider that of all the TIs introduced in the past 3 or 4 years, not one has had the rubber facepiece seal.
    My comments are sometimes educated, sometimes informed and sometimes just blowing smoke...but they are always mine and mine alone and do not reflect upon anyone else (especially my employer).

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    Don't let anyone fool you into thinking the rubber shroud is there only to block out smoke, it's not. And as far as new cameras introduced without the feature, isn't it still an option on many Bullard units? And isn't it true that there are many proven units with this feature still manufactured and sold?
    Getting back to the shroud, there are several reasons for this feature. First-if you were using the camera for size-up on a bright sunny day, it would out perform any camera not so equipped by blocking out the light. Have you ever tried viewing a TV outside?
    Second-this feature allows or forces the user to pull the camera as close to their face or facepiece as possible to have an optimum view of the screen. This accomplishes a few things. It allows the user to concentrate on the image presented from the optimum distance and leads to a likely more accurate interpretation of the image. Perhaps most important, the shroud allows the user to put the camera in the most advantageous position to overcome depth perception problems. For example, if you were reaching for a slide bolt lock or doorknob in zero visibility conditions, every camera gives you a similar effect as far as focus goes. Add the distance that an object is visible (3"-8")a cameras minimal focal range-the distance of the camera stem to stern (5"-11") the distance of your eyes to your facepiece (1"-2")and the distance you hold the camera to your face. The result is that you need to be about 3 feet from an object, any closer and it will be likely out of focus. You can now see the advantage a camera with a shroud may have. Cameras with larger screens often require you to hold them further away from your face/eyes for optimum viewing. These cameras do allow for easier viewing by multiple people at the same time as long as smoke allows. I agree smoke is not too much of an issue. I have often been asked why the image seems to be "moving". This effect is the result of smoke movement between the users eyes and view screen lighting up that smoke. This is not a big issue. Any salesman that can point out a positive can usually be countered by another salesmans negative. Any camera currently for sale would be a good choice. That choice can be optimized by getting "unbiased" camera specific training on the unit you decide to purchase. Remember more often than not it is not a questions of good, bad or better, these units are just different. Stay Safe. John F.

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    Originally posted by JForristall
    And as far as new cameras introduced without the feature, isn't it still an option on many Bullard units? And isn't it true that there are many proven units with this feature still manufactured and sold?
    ... Perhaps most important, the shroud allows the user to put the camera in the most advantageous position to overcome depth perception problems. For example, if you were reaching for a slide bolt lock or doorknob in zero visibility conditions, every camera gives you a similar effect as far as focus goes. Add the distance that an object is visible (3"-8")a cameras minimal focal range-the distance of the camera stem to stern (5"-11") the distance of your eyes to your facepiece (1"-2")and the distance you hold the camera to your face. The result is that you need to be about 3 feet from an object, any closer and it will be likely out of focus.
    1. I am not aware of any Bullard camera that was or is available with a rubber extension designed to interface with a facepiece. There is a separate, removable shroud for exterior use.
    2. I don't think I challenged the usability or quality of any TI that has a rubber facepiece interface. The question was whether it was needed for smoke; I suggested it was not. My comment about all new imagers using LCDs, rather than CRTs and being held to the facepiece, was to emphasize that the market (fire service) appears to agree it is not an issue.
    3. I don't follow your explanation on the depth perception. Because every fire service TI has a field of view around 50 degrees (with one at 70 degrees), everything on the display seems small (even more so on the 70 degree). Regardless of where you place the imager in reference to your eyes, the objects will not be to scale. So, without coming off as too dense, I respectfully request if you can re-explain your math/focus issue. I don't follow your thought process there.
    My comments are sometimes educated, sometimes informed and sometimes just blowing smoke...but they are always mine and mine alone and do not reflect upon anyone else (especially my employer).

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    John F.

    I attended a Safe-IR class last year in Worcester, I found it very informative, some of the best TI training I have had to date. I have some specific questions regrading Safe-IR, rather than posting them I was wondering if you wouldn't mind emailing me and I would ask my questions via email. My email is Engine6bfd@earthlink.net. I appreciate your time.

    Mike Donovan
    Bridgeport Connecticut Fire Department

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    I guess my explanation of a few things are lost in written translation, so I'll give it another shot. This could explain why I'm more comfortable with hands-on instruction.
    First, in the case of TIC design, for general use, a shroud is a shroud regardless of the material used. My point about the cameras mentioned specifically was the fact that their design automatically makes the user pull the camera right up to the eyes as closely as possible. From manufacturer to manufacturer the cameras are all designed differently, some have permanantely mounted shrouds that interface with the facepiece, some have removable ones that do the same thing for the same reasons, while others such as bullard and draeger to name a couple, have removable pieces that provide what in effect amounts to the ability to use the unit in bright sunlight. I think we can all agree that smoke is not usually going to be an issue. I will say this though JB, while most residential structure fires aren't fueled by tires, (neither should training burns) most are fueled by plastics, foams and enough synthetic materials producing thick hydrocarbon filled smoke to make some conditions appear to be a fire fed by tires.
    Next, I must have missed the reference to LCD vs. CRT, I thought we were discussing the shrouds.
    Finally, A cameras F.O.V. and Focal range are two different things. Simply, while most cameras claim a focal range of 1" to 3" to infinity, the effect of most cameras (because of F.O.V., display size and the math I speak of) is objects appear to be closer than they are in reality, making the general distance a user needs to be from an object approximately 3', any closer and it will likely be out of focus. I hope this helps you to understand this point. If not contact me, I'll E-mail you, or talk to a firefighter that's had a Safe-IR training, there may be someone who can explain what they've learned better than I can. Stay safe JF

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    To clarify further, most fire service Tic's are "fixed" focus, that means objects in theory are visible from about 3"-8" to infinity. Naturally, infinity is very optimistic and depending on conditions a target the size of a human might realistically be identified 100' to 300' away at most.JF

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    John,

    You are essentially right. Most manufacturers fix the focus of the TIC at between 9' and 15' with a wide FOV lens (40 to 50 degree Horizontal FOV). The wide FOV lens gives a "depth of focus" of ~12" to infinity. What that means is that objects in that range are identifiably in focus. Obviously the size of any object, the distance from the TIC, and the thermal intensity will define how far away you can identify it.

    Fixed focus is used because the wide FOV lens supports it and it give the fire fighter one less thing to worry about.

    David Fisher
    Business Development Manager
    ISG Thermal Systems

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    David F, Thanks for the info. After all is said and done, I think those that ask questions can put this stuff together and better understand capabilities and limitations. Where you ever able to do anything with that display icon we talked about last year? John F.

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    Originally posted by JForristall
    Finally, A cameras F.O.V. and Focal range are two different things. Simply, while most cameras claim a focal range of 1" to 3" to infinity, the effect of most cameras (because of F.O.V., display size and the math I speak of) is objects appear to be closer than they are in reality, making the general distance a user needs to be from an object approximately 3', any closer and it will likely be out of focus. I hope this helps you to understand this point.
    Every fire service TI with which I am familiar has a 3' minimal focal range, out to, as you say, infinity. The FOV issue shouldn't have anything to do with the size of the TI or its distance to your face. Whether you hold a TI at arms length or against the facepiece, it can still only focus on something about 3' away or further. Also, the wider FOV actually makes objects appear smaller and further away than they are in reality. It is this slightly disorienting view that requires exactly what you guys at SAFE-IR preach: regular, effective training.

    Perhaps I misunderstood your earlier post, but I interpreted it to mean that you needed the length of the imager and its distance to your eyes to be around 3' to get a "realistic" view. The FOV of 50 or so degrees means you can never have a scene that looks "life size". "Life size" scenes require an FOV around 17 degrees, which has the negative impact of amplifying the "tunnel vision" effect.
    My comments are sometimes educated, sometimes informed and sometimes just blowing smoke...but they are always mine and mine alone and do not reflect upon anyone else (especially my employer).

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    Hey, looks like the gang is all here, John Forristall, Jonathan Bastian, and David Fisher.

    If this bunch can't figure it out, it can't be figured out!

    One of my favorite subjects, "The Numbers Game"
    Needless to say there are a lot of numbers that get thrown around with TICs. FOV (Field of View), Focus, MRTD (Minimum Resolvable Temp Difference), NETD (Noise Equivalent Temp Difference), Unit Weight, Battery Life, etc.

    Guess what? Most of these numbers are:
    Developed and used by the Marketing / Sales Dept
    Developed under testing / conditions that are not always the same
    Can't be compared / explained without a College Degree

    So what does that mean? Be very careful about getting into "The Numbers Game" because there is a good chance you will come out of it having bought a sales pitch or you will be more confused than when you started.

    I personally believe that seeing it first hand is believing, and in most cases understanding.

    Examples:
    Which TIC is the most sensitive?
    If you asked this question to the sales force they would most likely start quoting MRTD or NETD numbers. While these tests are the way to evaluate a TICs performance, they can be performed under a number of different conditions that can greatly impact the outcome of the test. As a result, if you can't be sure the tests were identical then you really can't compare the numbers. So how do you determine which one is most sensitive? You take them and put them side by side and run them through some tests on your own. Can they pick up the studs in a wall, can they pick up a product level in a container, can you count the number of books sitting on a book shelf? Remember, when you do these tests you must do them at the exact same time. If not the conditions may change (even though it is not obvious to you) and you may not get the same results. Example, I can look at one wall in our Fire Station on a sunny day and see the studs, but on days without sun you really can't see them.

    How long will the battery last?
    This is a real good one, if you have a TIC and can actually get it to run as long as the sales guy told you it would then please let me know! Once again, there are a number of factors that can impact how long a TIC battery will last. The temp the test is conducted under, if accessories such as a transmitter or video overlay are being used, quality variations in the battery manufacturing process, etc. Once again if you want to know how long the battery will last make sure you have a fairly new battery with a full charge, start the TICs up and see how long they will actually run. Remember, hot or cold temps, using accessories such as transmitters and video overlay, and the age of the battery can all impact operating times.

    How heavy is the TIC?
    Once again good luck getting a straight answer here! Weights should not be compared unless you can compare an apple to an apple. If you look at a weight number you need to determine what it does or does not include. You can have a basic unit weight, a weight with accessories, a weight with battery, a weight with handle, etc. I can remember a certain manufacturer who listed their weight as the industries lightest, only thing was it did not include the battery which weighted about another pound! I guess you had to read the small print that said batteries not included! Also on weight, a TIC with good ergonomics/design that weighs 5 pounds will most likely feel lighter than a TIC with bad ergonomics/design that weighs 4 pounds. Once again compare the units side by side and see what feels the best when you actually use them under realistic conditions.

    I would much rather count on first hand real world experience during an evaluation, then count on some cooked up numbers!

    If you can't do all of the testing/evaluating on your own then at least try to get some feedback from current users who have some actual experience using the units you are considering.

    Nothing against the TIC sales force or the manufacturers (been there, done that, got the t-shirt) but if you can get the info from your own experiences or from other users experiences then I would go with that!

    Remember, no question is a dumb or bad question to ask. If you have them, please ask them here, and I am sure you will get some good feedback.

    Good Luck, Stay Safe,
    Mike Richardson
    Captain, Training Officer
    St Matthews FD, Louisville KY
    "aka TIman"
    richardson@stmatthewsfd.com

    TI Training = www.safe-ir.com

    The information and views above are in no way associated with my employer, and are strictly my own.

  25. #25
    Protective Economist
    Jonathan Bastian's Avatar
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    Oct 2002
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    Originally posted by torichardson
    How long will the battery last?
    This is a real good one, if you have a TIC and can actually get it to run as long as the sales guy told you it would then please let me know! Once again, there are a number of factors that can impact how long a TIC battery will last. The temp the test is conducted under, if accessories such as a transmitter or video overlay are being used, quality variations in the battery manufacturing process, etc. Once again if you want to know how long the battery will last make sure you have a fairly new battery with a full charge, start the TICs up and see how long they will actually run. Remember, hot or cold temps, using accessories such as transmitters and video overlay, and the age of the battery can all impact operating times.
    Don't forget that the care/maintenance by the user also play a role in battery life (and battery longevity). No rechargeable battery lasts for ever...make replacement plans.
    Last edited by firemanjb; 01-23-2004 at 10:38 AM.
    My comments are sometimes educated, sometimes informed and sometimes just blowing smoke...but they are always mine and mine alone and do not reflect upon anyone else (especially my employer).

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