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  1. #1
    Forum Member EastKyFF's Avatar
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    Default Vol FF photographed at dirty bookstore, suspended

    An 18 YO Jr. FF at a VFD in Jefferson Co., KY has been suspended after being photographed, apparently in an FD shirt, at one of them nekkid pitcher n' movie places.

    http://www.kyfirewire.com/archive/ne...asp?NewsID=452

    I won't even weigh in on this; the discussion should take care of itself!
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  2. #2
    MembersZone Subscriber EFD840's Avatar
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    I think the key here is that a lot more happened than a visit to an adult entertainment establishment while wearing a department shirt.

    According to the article, there was a public altercation where the firefighter admitted to making an obscene gesture and was accused of doing a lot more.

    Wearing your department t-shirt to a porn shop ain't exactly good judgement, but it shouldn't be a major offense. We ask our members to refrain from wearing department stuff if they're going to be visiting local watering holes (the only legal adult entertainment available here) but it is simply a request and there's no consequence for not honoring the request. I see this in the same light.

    If the recruit had just walked away, this whole thing probably wouldn't have seen the light of day. Instead, there's a blowup on the street and suddenly there's another 'Local Firefighter..." headline in the paper. The chief has it right when he said
    "When they don that Fire Department shirt, the public views them as on duty and their conduct has to be above reproach"
    The story doesn't say how long he was suspended. Unless it was for an extended period, my advice would be to serve your time, find a hole in which to crawl and quit giving interviews to the TV station. Unless you keep dragging it out, something else will come along to steal the spotlight and life will resume.

    If he gets the job, he might just turn out to be a pretty popular guy around the station.

  3. #3
    Early Adopter cozmosis's Avatar
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    If the firefighter was wearing his FD t-shirt, I have no problem with the suspension. When you put on the uniform, you are no longer just an individual. He could have put on any clothes he wanted that morning... but he wanted to wear his FD shirt. When he did that, he should have known that he was representing the department and every member of it.

  4. #4
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    Default Pure CRAP

    Now I canít defend the person for going into a store with a FD shirt on. Itís understandable on the FD's side that it is a representative item that he had on and how that could possibly create a bad image for the fire department. However, I think thereís more of a legal issue here than moral.

    This person is going into adult bookstores and taking pictures of their customers? I would say this is a tort of violation of privacy. If someone wants to read "dirty" books thatís their prerogative, and their business. I donít care what anybody does, itís their business.
    Was he reading the books at the fire department open house? Doubt it. So who cares?

    It donít matter what you read, if you read anything at all. If your a law biding citizen (which he did not break any laws) and a good prospective fireman (which he very well could be. none of us know so lets not judge) than whatís the problem?

    My final judgment is simple... he did not break the law, if anyone did the photographer did. And the fire department was out of its bounds by making the suspension, since I highly doubt it that it is not in their by-laws that "one cannot enter a adult entertainment store".

    And letís remember what it said his intentions were there. Employment. (Even though thatís not somewhere where I could work.)

    Stupid, unjust and unfair.
    Last edited by rfcmitch; 12-12-2003 at 11:03 AM.
    Firefighter/EMT Mitch Cowen
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  5. #5
    Forum Member nmfire's Avatar
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    If he wants to make use of or for some reason WORK at that establishment, that is his buisness. However, walking in there with a FD shirt and then acting like an idiot in front of a camera is just plain stupid. No one tarnished his name but himself.
    Even the burger-flippers at McDonald's probably have some McWackers.

  6. #6
    MembersZone Subscriber SamsonFCDES's Avatar
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    If you are going to a questionable establishment and are planning on makeing an arse of yourself...

    Wear a T shirt from a different department!

    Maybe the FDNY will want all if its T shirts back...?
    -Brotherhood: I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.
    -Mistakes: It could be that the purpose of you life is to serve as a warning to others.

    -Adversity: That which does not kill me postpones the inevitable.

    -Despair: Its always darkest before it goes Pitch Black.

  7. #7
    Forum Member PAVolunteer's Avatar
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    Stupid ... yes.

    Punishable by suspension ... whatever. If volunteer FD's started suspending guys for visiting adult establishments ... well, let's just say that the manpower problem is about to get a lot worse.

    This department better never, ever, sell a department T shirt to a non-member, and better recall all of the shirts sold to ex-members.

    Stay Safe

  8. #8
    Forum Member Bones42's Avatar
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    Actually, taking pictures of people outside of stores and posting them on an internet site is not against the law.

    The kid made a bad judgement, his department suspended him for his actions, done deal. 4 sides to this story, the kids, the picture taker, the newspapers, and the truth.

    Be interesting to see what his actual suspension was for. Was it for wearing the shirt, was it for "blasting the siren", was it for the obscene gesture? Or was it simply a few minor things added together to put a small black mark on a department? What makes the department look better - do nothing or give the guy a minor suspension? To the public, give him a suspension. It shows the department is trying to keep that good ff image.

    This department better never, ever, sell a department T shirt to a non-member, and better recall all of the shirts sold to ex-members
    Any department that does sell their stuff should really think about how it might be affecting their "image" and how that stuff is being worn...
    Last edited by Bones42; 12-12-2003 at 12:16 PM.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  9. #9
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    I'm still trying to figure out what this kid did wrong. It is not illegal to patronize an adult bookstore. It is not illegal to work in an adult bookstore. It is not illegal to act like an idiot. So the kid was wearing a FD t-shirt, so what? He was inside a (apparently) legitimate business. We may not agree that the business is moral, but it is legal.

    And let the person here who has not acted like an idiot (yelled at somebody, used an obscene gesture, blew the horn or siren at someone in frustration, etc.) cast the first stone.

    Where do you draw the line? Bars? Go-go joints? Head shops? What is immoral for one person may not be a problem for another. As long as the kids behavior is legal, he should not be punished.

  10. #10
    Forum Member ThNozzleman's Avatar
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    Big deal. The guy should not be suspended for visiting a perfectly legal establishment. It's time people quit trying to legislate their particular views of morality on everyone. Does looking at naked people really make one a poor image of a firefighter? Why hide it?

  11. #11
    Forum Member PAVolunteer's Avatar
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    Riddle me this ...

    If ThNozzleman was photographed, while wearing his FD t-shirt, in a church, would he be suspended???

  12. #12
    Forum Member HeavyRescueTech's Avatar
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    Originally posted by GeorgeWendtCFI
    And let the person here who has not acted like an idiot (yelled at somebody, used an obscene gesture, blew the horn or siren at someone in frustration, etc.) cast the first stone.

    Where do you draw the line? Bars? Go-go joints? Head shops? What is immoral for one person may not be a problem for another. As long as the kids behavior is legal, he should not be punished.
    From what I read, he was suspended for being in an adult bookstore while wearing an FD T-shirt. Not for acting like an idiot. and I'll take what you said one step further. I don't believe any Fire department clothing should be worn in bars, liquor stores, go-go bar/topless joints, or even at a party where alcohol is being served (college students know the type of parties I mean). The reason being it can look bad in the eyes of the public. The Chief said it best
    "When they don that Fire Department shirt, the public views them as on duty and their conduct has to be above reproach"
    By George's thinking, there is not problem with the on-duty engine crew going to the local bar, parking with the engine outside, and eating lunch or dinner (with no alcohol being consumed). or the on-duty ambulance crew making a quick stop at the local liquor store to see what the prices are for a botttle of wine for after the shift. or 3 of [insert your city here]'s finest hanging out in the topless bar because it's a cool place to kill time before the shift is over, with thier cruisers parked outside. oh, and in all three situations, they run out leave their establishments if they get dispatched to a call.

    is it legal? absolutely. Is it morally right? that can be a gray area. In all three instances, the public's view of emergency services can be tarnished. look how often we hear "a volunteer FF was arrested for xxxxx". while I don't agree with that, it shows that in the eyes of the public we are held to a higher standard.

    I couldn't care less that he was in an adult book store. in fact, I couldn't care less if my entire department was in an adult book store. They are all individuals, and can do as they please. HOWEVER, the moment they have an FD t-shirt, or an FD jobshirt, then they are veiwed by the public as a representive of the fire department. and similarly to how I don't want to be thought of as a drunk just because some guy in my dept got wasted at the bar in FD uniform (and for this case, i consider a t-shirt uniform), this is another thing I would rather keep the department's image clean of. and yes ThNozzleman, it does in the eyes of the public.
    Last edited by DrParasite; 12-12-2003 at 02:21 PM.
    If my basic HazMat training has taught me nothing else, it's that if you see a glowing green monkey running away from something, follow that monkey!

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  13. #13
    Senior Member Dalmatian90's Avatar
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    Ah, but would his presence in church violate the seperation of church and state?

    ==================

    At any rate, hope there's more to this story. It didn't say, but I'm assuming the "T-shirt" in question is more a casual clothing item than an official uniform. If it was one the community sees the firefighters on-duty in regulary, I could see being more upset. A casual tee though, yeah, hey kid, please don't do that again, K?

    There is a line somewhere here -- you don't let strippers pose on your pumper while on duty for instance.

  14. #14
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    By George's thinking, there is not problem with the on-duty engine crew going to the local bar, parking with the engine outside, and eating lunch or dinner (with no alcohol being consumed). or the on-duty ambulance crew making a quick stop at the local liquor store to see what the prices are for a botttle of wine for after the shift. or 3 of [insert your city here]'s finest hanging out in the topless bar because it's a cool place to kill time before the shift is over, with thier cruisers parked outside. oh, and in all three situations, they run out leave their establishments if they get dispatched to a call.
    That is ridiculous and is not even close to my "way of thinking". Being paid on duty in uniform is distinctly different from wearing your FD t-shirt while you are on your own time. "My way of thinking" is what you do on your own time is your business as long as it is legal. Just because "you don't think" something should be done does not, by any stretch of the imagination, mean that it is wrong.

    Answer my question? Where do you draw the line? All bars? Or just bars that are placed on a list as not being "nice"? The track? After all, gambling goes on there! What about a movie theater where an X-rated movie is playing? I know. What if you wore your FD t-shirt at a political candidates rally that wasn't approved by the FD? What if you wore your FD t-shirt while you were looking at porn on the Internet?

    Bottom line: The kid did nothing illegal. He should not be punished.

  15. #15
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    OMG ,
    Reneer has caused controversy since summertime, when WLKY first reported that he was photographing adult-store customers and publishing their pictures on an anti-porn Web site, Alcock reported. What makes him even more controversial is that he's a convicted rapist and sex offender.

    "The guy should not be out of jail to begin with," Jones said


    Geez what a winner and what a person to be against these places


    No suspension . Nothing Illegal
    If I were him I would challenge the suspension

  16. #16
    Forum Member ThNozzleman's Avatar
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    Bottom line: The kid did nothing illegal. He should not be punished.
    Exactly.
    If ThNozzleman was photographed, while wearing his FD t-shirt, in a church, would he be suspended???
    Suspended??? Get me to a hospital, man!

  17. #17
    Forum Member firenresq77's Avatar
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    Wow! See George, it IS possible for us to see eye to eye sometimes.......

  18. #18
    Forum Member Weruj1's Avatar
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    I agree the person did nothing illegal...........I think that if he hadnt made a spectacle of himself nothing would have happened. Would I wear a department shirt to an adult bookstore ? NO. Because I think that it can again mar the publics view of us, right or wrong, would I suspend someone for the same ? NO, but I would encourage them to think about their choice of clothes for the day before returning there.
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  19. #19
    Temporarily/No Longer Active Cellblock776's Avatar
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    -------------------------------
    By George's thinking, there is not problem with the on-duty engine crew going to the local bar, parking with the engine outside, and eating lunch or dinner (with no alcohol being consumed). or the on-duty ambulance crew making a quick stop at the local liquor store to see what the prices are for a botttle of wine for after the shift. or 3 of [insert your city here]'s finest hanging out in the topless bar because it's a cool place to kill time before the shift is over, with thier cruisers parked outside. oh, and in all three situations, they run out leave their establishments if they get dispatched to a call.
    -------------------------------
    Cellblock replies-
    There isn't a problem in my Department with this. The on-duty FFs will each take a pumper or the Rescue Truck to the local bar and grill and park out front while having lunch or dinner. Volunteers who are training will often stop there for meals and park the trucks outside in the front parking lot. It is a popular watering hole and it is not at all unusual to walk in some nights when the place is packed with drinkers to find 2 or 3 VFD members inside wearing their VFD Tshirts and caps. They will be draining cans along with everyone else until their pagers tone out then it's like a convoy of pickups pulling out of the parking lot enroute to the station, code 3, to get a truck. The on duty guys can't drink during their shift but may still go there to eat. The vollies even allow drinking at department meetings and if they get toned out during the meeting they put down the beer cans and run the call. It happened at this month's business meeting. A call for an unresponsive patient just as the meeting was ending. Members dropped their cans in the trash on the way out the door to the call.
    Before you say that the leadership should put a stop to it let me remind you that I have posted before that some of us had passed a ban on beer at the meetings but it was overturned within a couple of months by the Chief and his assistants. Lead by example? It was the Chief and one of the Assistant Chiefs who had been drinking throughout the meeting who took the EMS truck to the medical call, who set up the night landing zone and who drove the flight medic from the helicopter to the patients house.
    We are so screwed.

  20. #20
    Forum Member Skwerl530's Avatar
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    Default actually

    ThNozzleman would be suspended if he walked into a chruch because it would fall down around him.

    I have to agree with Bob on this one. Actually breaking a law would be cause for suspension but in no way was a law broken. This kid should never have been suspended. At most the CO could have had a talk with him about how it looked to the public.

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