1. #26
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    CONCLUSION
    The death of firefighter James Heenan can be directly attributed to a cumulative effect of three factors. Firstly, the IC did not properly analyze the fire conditions, and FF Heenan was ordered into the structure through the first floor Division C door, putting him directly over the seat of the fire. Secondly, there was a failure to utilize the proper equipment prior to entering the structure – namely a thermal imaging camera and handtools to sound the floor for stability. Thirdly, the introduction of the fog fire streams into the hole in the floor and through the exterior basement windows pushed the fire and superheated gases back down upon FF Heenan, thus causing the burn injuries that ultimately led to his death.
    After one full read through, I gleened:

    Fire from basement was venting out the B/A corner. Entry was made from the C side. How does this indicate entry above the "seat of the fire"? I would need to know the location of the rear door. If it was on the C side near the C/D corner, it would seem a better choice than the A door since fire is venting below at the B/A corner.

    While I do not have a problem with the line directed into the hole which he fell through, the two lines operated into the basement from the B and D sides is troubling.

    This is considered to be contrary to all recognized practices, including those found in Essentials of Firefighting, which contains the following caution: “Warning: Never operate any type of fire stream through a ventilation hole while firefighters are still inside the building. This stops the ventilation process and places interior crews in serious danger”. Additionally, it lists one disadvantage of fog streams as “When improperly used during interior attacks, they can spread fire, create heat inversion, and cause steam burns to firefighters”.
    I believe this quote is used totally out of context. It is meant for normal fire Ops. not this situation. The very words "Never" and "Always" should be stricken from 99% of all fire related text.

    Aggressive tactics were utilized due to one glaring fact from the report:
    a working structure fire with victims possibly trapped inside the private residence

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    I believe this quote is used totally out of context. It is meant for normal fire Ops. not this situation. The very words "Never" and "Always" should be stricken from 99% of all fire related text.
    Damn! One more thing we agree on.

  3. #28
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    Hmmm, interesting thoughts 229.

    You have a hole in the floor the FF fell through.

    The fire's natural desire is to vent through that hole, drawing more fire to that area.

    A fog line operated into that hole will tend to push the fire away from that area (which is why we normally don't operate fog patterns into vent holes).

    Of course, operating opposing lines into the other windows is going to push the fire back towards him. Opposing hoselines.

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    OMG, George and Artie agree again! Three times in one year! What is the world coming to?

    Anyway to the point, I am thinking George is correct on the hole in the floor, It would have failed such that the flooring material would have created a lean-to effect. This does not make for efficient ventilation. I know when I was taught ventilation, I was taught to clear the hole, I know this is semantics but I would have considered this a rescue hole not a vent hole.
    I am inclined to agree with Artie, I would have been dumping water down that hole if I saw one of my brothers go through it.

    Those are just my 2 cents worth.
    Shawn M. Cecula
    Firefighter
    IACOJ Division of Fire and EMS

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    I would rather the crews working inside bring the TIC with them as opposed to leaving outside for the IC to use. In my department, our first 2 (soon to be 3) trucks have TIC's by the officers seat and it is that persons job to grab it and use it. Our Chief's arrive on scene prior to the trucks (most times) and they don't have TIC's in their cars. The Chief's give their initial size up and before we make entry, the officer has the TIC in operation.

    If someone at NJDFS is saying something different, that person needs to look at their own regs.
    Again, it was probably an office worker and not a "higher up".
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Bones, I was wondering when someone else was going to say that. our department has one camera, and generally the first due engine crew takes it with them. the chief doesn't have one, nor should the IC techically have it. according to ICS/IMS, that's the responsibility of the operations person. but that another issue. and I don't think the TIC would have been able to detect an unstable floor.

    I believe we are taught never to spray water from the exterior when there are FFs inside a building. this includes into vent holes and in from windows.

    also, I belive it's ICS 100 + Firefighter I + $5 to some agency = IMS Level 1.

    quick question about thiese reports. who is the one who fills out these reports? is it a committee of seasoned FD veterans? or it is a beaurocrat who has reaserched a lot about fire, but has never actually been in a building?
    If my basic HazMat training has taught me nothing else, it's that if you see a glowing green monkey running away from something, follow that monkey!

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    Ohio,

    You have a fire in the basement...a line going through the front door to the basement puts the line between the fire and the most important chunk of real estate for people on the 2nd floor--the stairwell leading right out the front door.

    The first line must protect that interior stairwell at all costs whether in a securing/holding pattern or in an offensive manner.

    That is why I don't agree with your tactic of going in with the first line through the rear basement door. The only way I would bring a line through that basement door is if the first line went through the front door and was in place on the first floor protecting the stairwell.

    Remember, you must protect the brothers searching above the fire and any trapped/fleeing occupants.
    Kevin M. Fitzhenry
    Captain, Rescue Company 1
    City of Bayonne (NJ) Fire Department

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    Default my 2 cents worth ...............

    In reading this I can offer the following.......we have a TIC and it is on the first due engine, so if I arrive on the scene I would do just what the Chief did, a 360 survey and trying to see if anyone has exited the structure. Certainly time of day would indicate a high probability of occupancy. I didnt have a problem with the entry they chose, and I would say if a FF fell through the hole............I would be shooting water in the whole unless there were some other FF's already making their way down there. I agree that I am not sure if the TIC would "tell me" that the floor was unstable.......also I would doubt I would take the TIC after the first due engine gets there and sweep the structure again before crews made entry. The attack team should have the TIC with them for sure.....or at least the back up line would have it. Also I dont know if the department was FT or combo or volly but this all happened within 10 minutes of dispatch ? So would manpower allow for a back up line yet? a RIT/RIC team ? I am not disagreeing you should NOT have them but I dont know the info to make that call. They appear to have some training issues. Safety Officer ? PAR/PASS system ? Emergency evacuation procedure ? these are some thoughts I wonder about, if they had them in place ........the bottom line is a FF died and I hope others will look both inwards and out to try and prevent this from happening in our own departments..........oh ya how can George be WRONG ???????? what is the world coming too ? and then he and Artie agree ???????? on man .......... you all be safe and to the above mentioned .......just kiddin ........
    IACOJ both divisions and PROUD OF IT !
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    I'm sorry, I haven't been paying much attention for the last 3 hours.....what were we discussing?
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    To further expand on the NJ state requirements for FF1, below is a copy of the entire email I received from the Division of Fire Safety:

    "Contrary to popular belief, Firefighter-1 is not state mandated. This could change one day, but not at this time. The basis for training is PEOSHA requirements that all employees, including volunteer firefighters, be properly trained to do their jobs. Training requirements are based on accredited national standards such as those provided by IFSTA using national accepted standards like the NFPA 1001, which New Jersey has modified this standard to suit state preferences.
    To be State Certified Firefighter-1, an individual must, after completion of a approved class, apply for state certification. State certification is not mandatory unless you wish to act in a supervisory role in your department. IMS-1 (Incident Management System Level-1) can not be granted without state FF-1 certification. IMS Level-1 certification is mandatory for all supervisory personnel paid or volunteer.
    5:73-6.1(a) of the New Jersey Uniform Fire Code: All fire service personnel shall satisfactorily complete the two hour training module : ICS Orientation, Incident Command System of the National Training Curriculum by February 17, 1999"

    So from how I read it you do not have to be FF1 certified to be a firefighter in NJ. You do need to have ICS 100, if you took before February 17, 1999 you’re exempt from FF1 unless you want to be an officer. You’d then have to take FF1 in order to get into ICS 200 and IMS Level 1. Rumor has it the state doesn’t require FF1 because if they required it they’d have to pay for it…..so they use the backdoor.

    Bones, no ICS 100 and ICS 200 do not = IMS Level 1. IMS Level 1 is given from the state with proof of ICS 100, ICS 200 and a letter from your Chief stating that you have at least 3 years in the fire service.

    After all of that, from what I’ve seen most company/department by-laws require members to have FF1 so even though the state technically says you don’t need to have it everyone with an ounce of common sense requires their members to have it.

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    Rumor has it the state doesn’t require FF1 because if they required it they’d have to pay for it…..so they use the backdoor.
    With all the screaming about "State mandate-State pay", you are probably dead on right.
    After all of that, from what I’ve seen most company/department by-laws require members to have FF1 so even though the state technically says you don’t need to have it everyone with an ounce of common sense requires their members to have it.
    This is also a true statement.

    I guess in this case it should be more troubling that the Chief Officers did not have this training.

  11. #36
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    With all the screaming about "State mandate-State pay", you are probably dead on right.

    There's few things in politics that get my hair up like the ninnies who cry the, "Unfunded Mandate" red herring.

    The State mandates you have a driver's license if you want to drive. I don't see them paying for the training, though.

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    I was able to get some time to read the entire report and the overwhelming and resounding tone of this report is that the qualifications of the chief officer is coming into question.
    As minor as it sounds, I cannot believe that this chief did not have a portable or mobile radio, even though he responded in his personal vehicle.
    When I served as chief, I had a department-provided mobile in my vehicle, a portable radio that was never out of sight and I even had a pager and a scanner at home.
    What good is size-up/assessment if you cannot communicate it to your first due? I realize that the report said that the chief went around the house more than once, but to me, it's just a walk in the neighborhood if he's not communicating what he sees.
    And how do we know that the back up did anything with the nozzle? Maybe it was already set to fog and he didn't know any better? Comes back to training.
    Fire commissioners are also held accountable, because with their affirmation of the election of the chief, they are saying that the chief is qualified to guide the fire department.
    The TI camera should be utilized as soon as it hits the scene. As a former chief, there is no way that I would ever carry it in my vehicle in order to do a size up, but I guarantee you that an interior attack will not be done until the camera is there and ready to go. Because if you go in for a blind search and the results are the same as here, I will assure you that the camera will be central to any investigation. If the department does not have a TI camera, then a recommendation will be included in their final report that the department get one.
    Training and the cost of it. Jesus. How many times have we discussed that one? Unfunded mandates? In my mind, basic/essential firefighting training should never cost a fire department ANYTHING! Specialized training? Perhaps a fee is charged, but regardless, cost/benefit should still be determined when training is discussed. If a firefighter does not have the essential skills, then how can he move into a leadership role and how effective is anyone who is not trained at a competent level?
    I know that the chief is taking the heat. That comes with the white hat. That is usually the first place criticism will go. That's just the way it is.
    It is very apparent to me that there is a renaissance taking place in this country. The public is expecting a competent effort from their public servants.
    We should expect the same.
    And stay safe above all else.
    CR
    Visit www.iacoj.com
    Remember Bradley Golden (9/25/01)
    RIP HOF Robert J. Compton(ENG6511)

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    When the structural members collapse under a floor, in my experience, a huge gaping hole did not immediately develop. The materials and contents no top were more than likely still intact. There would be a collapse which would be akin to a "lean-to" or other similar shape. The contents would then slide into the void. The hole would come later.
    Here is a photo of a basement apartment fire we had a few weeks ago. The fire started in a garage that had unprotected floor joists. The collapse happened rather quickly, as there several heavy pieces of furniture, including a waterbed, on that end of the home. This photo shows the "lean to" effect that George mentions. I hate to say it, but anyone going into an inferno like this is probably not going to make it out, especially if heavy items, like the bed, slide down on top of them. This garage area had several old tires stored inside it, along with various fuels, paints, and oil soaked wooden work benches and shelves. Basements are a "catch-all" for many forms of unknown items, around here. Very dangerous. Unless someone was able to make safe access with a good view to an open basement (no partitions), I don't think a TIC could possibly show enough to know for sure whether the trusses/joists are gone.

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    Whoops...here it is.
    Attached Images Attached Images  

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    Here is another view from the garage door.
    Attached Images Attached Images  

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    Here is a view from inside the apartment, looking through a wall into the garage area. Notice the heavy furniture sliding down the slope.
    Attached Images Attached Images  

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    It is very apparent to me that there is a renaissance taking place in this country. The public is expecting a competent effort from their public servants.
    As long as the price tag is REASONable

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    The State mandates you have a driver's license if you want to drive. I don't see them paying for the training, though.
    Doesn't mean there are not a lot of people complaining about it....still.


    Here's the really disturbing part...the death occurred January 2001. This report is getting release December 2003. In these almost 3 years since all these mistakes were made...were any corrected?
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Bonesy,
    Darn good question .......
    IACOJ both divisions and PROUD OF IT !
    Pardon me sir.. .....but I believe we are all over here !
    ATTENTION ALL SHOPPERS: Will the dead horse please report to the forums.(thanks Motown)
    RAY WAS HERE 08/28/05
    LETHA' FOREVA' ! 010607
    I'm sorry, I haven't been paying much attention for the last 3 hours.....what were we discussing?
    "but I guarentee you I will FF your arse off" from>
    http://www.firehouse.com/forums/show...60#post1137060post 115

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    Originally posted by Bones42
    Doesn't mean there are not a lot of people complaining about it....still.


    Here's the really disturbing part...the death occurred January 2001. This report is getting release December 2003. In these almost 3 years since all these mistakes were made...were any corrected?
    Let's analyze this.

    1. Refusal to cooperate with the investigation
    2. No contact with widow or family since incident

    My guess would be that if you look out the window and see pigs flying, the deficiencies have been fixed.

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    I hope people will take a hard look at this. How many firefighters have fallen into burning basements in the past couple of years? How many brothers and sisters have to die before we change? I guess way to $@!% many!

    Some food for thought on Basement Fires:
    If you are unsure of the integrity of the 1st floor or interior stairs or suspect a well advanced basement fire you can gain access to the 2nd floor for search & rescue via ground ladders and not expose anyone to a collapse hazard with the 1st floor or interior stairs. You can also Vent, Enter, & Search on any 1st floor bedrooms via windows and limit your time on the floor and exposure to collapse. The front door and interior stairs are for occupants, we make entry wherever we need to safely and quickly get the job done.

    If you take a line into the basement via an exterior entrance ( the only way to go if you have the option) and extinguish the fire in the basement there is no need to protect the stairs. Remember the best way to remove the hazards (collapse, flashover, toxic smoke) is to put the fire out as quickly and safely as possible.

    You can’t protect anything from the 1st floor if it is burning out from under you. Anyone sitting on the 1st floor “protecting the stairs” is doing nothing but waiting for the floor to burn out underneath them unless they can actually make the stairs to the basement and get water on the fire.

    Some food for thought on thermal imaging:
    About 4 years ago when NJ starting giving out TICs I said this is a great day because the Brother and Sisters will now have the technology they need to do the job safer. However in the years after those units were issued there have been at least 3 incidents with fatalities where those TICs were not being used as they should. How many more Brothers are going to have to die before TICs start getting used as they should?

    Size-Up – the instant a TIC arrives on scene the first thing that gets done is Size-Up. If a bad Size-Up is made, then it will be a bad fire. The TIC will give you information that you will not otherwise be able to get. Heat around the foundation/1st floor of a building is a good indicator of a basement fire and potential floor collapse. Heat in the roofline is good indicator of fire attacking the roof and a potential for collapse. Additional heat conditions may also be noted which could indicate the location and extent of the fire.

    “Structure Triage” – as units move into the structure a “3 Area” or “6 Sided” scan should be used to evaluate the situation:
    Side 1 or Area 1 - The Ceiling is checked for heat/fire conditions. While the TIC may not “show” failing structural components it can indicate high levels of heat in areas that can impact structural integrity. If you know how to properly interpret a thermal image you can tell what is convected heat from the fire gases, versus conducted heat that is from an attic fire. If you have high levels of heat above your head and water or ventilation are not relieving the heat, then you most likely have a fire in a void space or attic, both which can quickly lead to ceiling or roof collapse.
    Sides 2-5 or Area 2 – The 4 Walls are checked for heat/fire conditions that could indicate a fire inside a wall or fire extending up from a floor below. This is very important for catching extension in Balloon Frame Construction.
    Side 6 or Area 3 – The Floor has to be checked from the point of entry for heat/fire conditions before anyone advances out onto it. Most floors with the exception of heavy industrial or commercial concrete floors will very quickly show levels of heat that can indicate a fire condition below. If the TIC is showing high heat levels in the floor alternate routes should be used until the fire conditions & structural integrity can verified.

    Thermal Imagers can give you very valuable information on the structural integrity of a building. How well they will work will depend on the building construction and the skill level of the user. Remember heavier forms of building construction and new energy efficient building construction can mask high levels of heat form the TIC. However the majority of residential building construction will very quickly show heat conditions in critical areas such as the roof and floor that could indicate the potential for collapse.

    Here are some examples where proper Tactics and TICs were used to keep the Brothers alive:
    http://thermalimager.bullard.com/new...001october.pdf
    http://thermalimager.bullard.com/new...TILate01NL.pdf
    http://thermalimager.bullard.com/new.../GTPLate02.pdf
    http://thermalimager.bullard.com/new...summer2003.pdf

    Finally,
    A TIC can not replace sound tactics or good basic firefighting skills.
    A TIC is only as good as the operator using it.
    An untrained firefighter with a TIC is more likely to get into trouble than a firefighter without a TIC
    A TIC can’t help unless it is taken off of the truck and used.

    Whether it is Strategy & Tactics, Equipment & Technology, or Training & Common Sense we have got to stop the dying.

    Good Luck, Stay Safe,
    Mike Richardson
    Captain, Training Officer
    St Matthews FD, Louisville KY
    "aka TIman"
    richardson@stmatthewsfd.com

    TI Training = www.safe-ir.com

    The information and views above are in no way associated with my employer, and are strictly my own.

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    "I guarantee you that an interior attack will not be done until the camera is there and ready to go."
    I don't know how quickly your department is able to get a camera on the scene, but no officer in my department would dare to delay an agressive interior attack with a report of victims trapped. I understand the sentiment, but, as one of the posters (George??) said, 99% of references to 'always' and 'never' should be eliminated.

    There are troubling aspects to this case, none more troubling to me than the lack of contact between the firefighters and the widow, but some of the tactics utilized do not seem so indefensible to me.

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    The front door and interior stairs are for occupants, we make entry wherever we need to safely and quickly get the job done.
    If you take a line into the basement via an exterior entrance ( the only way to go if you have the option) and extinguish the fire in the basement there is no need to protect the stairs. Remember the best way to remove the hazards (collapse, flashover, toxic smoke) is to put the fire out as quickly and safely as possible.
    Yes, the front door and interior stairs are for the occupants and yes, we make entry where it is safe and efficient but if you stretch the initial line to the basement via an opening other than the front door without having a line in place to protect that interior stairwell and front door, those occupants might not have that stairwell to egress from.

    If your initial attack is from say, a rear Bilco door, how do you know if the basement door is closed or open. Without having a line in place on the first floor, you could be chasing that fire up to the attic. And how is that fire going to get up there...via the stairwell you said we didn't need to protect...that the occupants are trying to get down and the brothers are trying to get up.

    You can’t protect anything from the 1st floor if it is burning out from under you. Anyone sitting on the 1st floor “protecting the stairs” is doing nothing but waiting for the floor to burn out underneath them unless they can actually make the stairs to the basement and get water on the fire.
    When I say protecting the stairs, I mean in an agressive interior attack manner. If the first line goes through the front door and gets to the top of the basement stairs and starts down the stairs, they have accomplished three(3) things at a minimum.
    1. They have placed the line between the fire and trapped occupants and searching brothers.
    2. They have placed the line in such a manner that they protect the primary means of egress (the front door).
    3. They have protected interior exposures(other rooms/floors)

    I can tell you from experience that that line protecting the interior stairs is big. I have been on a ladder company for 9 1/2 of my 11 years and I have been above fires where that line was in place protecting the stairwell and where it wasn't. It is a big difference both physically and psychologically.
    Kevin M. Fitzhenry
    Captain, Rescue Company 1
    City of Bayonne (NJ) Fire Department

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    Originally posted by torichardson
    The front door and interior stairs are for occupants, we make entry wherever we need to safely and quickly get the job done.

    If you take a line into the basement via an exterior entrance ( the only way to go if you have the option) and extinguish the fire in the basement there is no need to protect the stairs. Remember the best way to remove the hazards (collapse, flashover, toxic smoke) is to put the fire out as quickly and safely as possible.

    You can’t protect anything from the 1st floor if it is burning out from under you. Anyone sitting on the 1st floor “protecting the stairs” is doing nothing but waiting for the floor to burn out underneath them unless they can actually make the stairs to the basement and get water on the fire.
    I think that your definition of "protecting the stairs" is different from everyone elses. I have to agree with Fitz here. You "protect" the stairs by rapidly, and agressively advancing your attack line down the stairs and to the seat of the fire. The one action accomplishes many tasks, of which Fitz listed and I won't repeat. This is not to say I would never use the outside entrance, but it probably wouldn't be my first choice.

    Dave

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    My previous recommendations were by no means the right answer for every situation, I posted them in the hopes that Brothers and Sisters would realize that there are other options out there and that some of those options are a lot safer and can achieve the same positive results without the high level of risk.

    Basement Fire Strategy #1 – Attack Team #1 enters via the front door, advances across the 1st floor, locates the stairs, advances down the stairs, locates and extinguishes the fire. Attack Team #2 advances via the front door, advances across the 1st floor and checks for extension, advances down the stairs to backup Team #1 or to the 2nd Floor to check for extension as needed. Search & Rescue Team enters via the front door, advances up the interior stairs, advances across the 2nd floor conducting a primary search, and removes any located victims back down the interior stairs. Exactly what I was taught, and exactly what I practiced.

    This strategy has been used for over 50 years, it has successfully controlled thousands of fires, and allowed the rescue of countless civilians. It has also cost countless Firefighters their lives.

    As Attack Team #1 advances across the 1st floor, the floor collapses dumping them into the basement.

    As Attack Team #1 advances across the floor, they get lost and disoriented trying to locate the stairs and are caught in a flashover.

    As Attack Team #1 advances down the basement stairs, the stairs collapse dumping them into the basement.

    As Attack Team #1 advances down the basement stairs, they loose their water supply and are overrun by the fire trying to get out back up the stairs.

    TJ Lynch & Gino Ginochetti - Manlius NY, Bill Ellison - Miami Township OH, Chuck Williams - Lexington KY, and sadly these are only a few of the names. All Brothers who made the supreme sacrifice and all incidents that we must learn from.

    So do we keep using tactics that keep killing Firefighters, or do we consider other tactics that achieve success, but do it with a much lower level of risk? I vote for options.

    I have built training fires in the basement of a house and watched as the fires burned themselves completely out without ever advancing out of the basement. I have also built training fires in the basement of a house and watched as they burned completely through the flooring in less than 5-10 minutes and caused total floor collapse in less than 10-15 minutes. Basement Fire Strategy #1 will most likely work in the first type of house (finished basement ceiling, 2x10 joists with 1x6 floor planks), but it will also most likely get you killed in the second type of house (unfinished basement ceiling, manufactured wood I-Beams with OSB floor covering). For the second house you need another Basement Fire Strategy.

    Basement Fire Strategy #2 - Attack Team #1 enters the basement via an exterior door, locates and extinguishes the fire. Attack Team #2 holds at the front door, evaluates the integrity of the 1st floor/stairs and checks for extension. Search & Rescue Team enters the 2nd floor via ground ladders, advances across the 2nd floor conducting a primary search, they remove any located victims down the interior stairs or the ground ladders based on reports from Attack Team #1 & #2.

    Has Strategy #2 eliminated all of the hazards, NO. Has it eliminated a number of the hazards posed by Strategy #1, YES. Will Strategy #2 work at every basement fire, NO. Should there also be Basement Fire Strategies #3 - #?, YES.

    Think about it: What if the stairs are not in close proximity to the front door? What if you can’t quickly locate the interior stairs to the basement or second floor? What if you can’t “make the stairs” due to extreme heat/fire conditions venting up the “chimney” you are trying to come down? What if you loose your water supply as your try to push down the stairs? What if the floors or stairs are burned through prior to your arrival? What if the burned through floor support or decking fails as you put your weight onto the floor? What if you go through a floor, how will you get back out? What if another firefighter goes through the floor, what will you do to rescue them or protect them? Stay in this business long enough you will have to face and answer some of those questions. Right answer and yourself, your fellow Brothers, and the Victims might live! Wrong answer and yourself, your fellow Brothers, and the victims might die!

    If you give 10 Incident Commanders (Chiefs or Company Officers) the same exact fire you will most likely get at least 3 different Incident Action Plans. You will have Incident Commanders that will use Plan A, which is the same plan they use at every fire regardless of what the actual conditions are. You will have Incident Commanders that will use Plan B, which is a new plan they saw used by someone else, but it was intended for a residential fire and they are fighting a commercial fire. You will have Incident Commanders that will Size-Up the situation and they will choose from Plans A-Z based on which plan best fits the scenario they are facing. You tell me which Incident Commander you want to work for!

    Firefighting is an art and a science. It is extremely complicated, so complicated that a top team of engineers and scientists who planned the production process for many major US manufacturing facilities and business could not figure out a process that would work at every fire. We will not get it right every time no matter how hard we try, but if we keep doing the same things that get firefighters killed, then we should not be surprised when we get the same result time and time again.

    Live and Learn, Learn so you may Live! Train as if your life depends on it, because it does!

    Good Luck, Stay Safe,

    PS: you have a fire in a fireplace, you are told to extinguish it using a 2 ½ gallon water can. Would you walk up to it and extinguish it from the front opening, or would you try to extinguish it from the chimney?
    Mike Richardson
    Captain, Training Officer
    St Matthews FD, Louisville KY
    "aka TIman"
    richardson@stmatthewsfd.com

    TI Training = www.safe-ir.com

    The information and views above are in no way associated with my employer, and are strictly my own.

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