1. #1
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    Default Where should the officer be at a fire?

    I've got a question (well, two questions), and I figured I would ask some of the more experienced people here for an answer.

    1) your on the engine of a 3 person crew. you are the line officer. you arrive first at a structure fire (or any structural alarm). do you:

    A) assume command, and stay outside the building as the IC?
    B) assume command, and then you and the other FF goes into the building to fight the fire
    C) assume command, and then have your driver act as the IC, with you being interior operations
    D) if you have a 5 man crew, would you stay outside as IC and then send your 3 man crew in for FF operations?
    E) something else

    2) this is regarding an episode of 3rd watch (I know a very realistic firefighting show). In the scene, acting Captain Jimmy is outside the structure, with contact with his crew being done via radio. I guess this way the chief officer can ask him what they are doing inside. my question is, does anyone else do this? i always thought if your crew was inside, on a major fire, the officer was with them.
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    Interesting question Dr.

    What good would standing outside do the officer.(Besides look good on a nightime drama series) His expertice and supervision would be better put to use inside with his men.

    One of the important things that seperates the FD from the cops is that as an company officer they are the 1st in and last out as a matter of duty. A cop the higher rank the less likely they will be inside searching for a criminal or in a place of danger. The fire officer takes much more responsibility and is at the forefront of any dangerous situationhis men should encounter.

    If something on the outside of importance like victims are noted then in the chauffeur I'm sure would transmit this or any other important info to the officer if in the unlikely event no one else is on scene yet.

    After making the decsion of offensive or defensive all the officers attention should be focused on tactics and what is happening on the inside where the fire is and where his men are in the most danger.

    Safety and sound practices and principals dictate that the officer should be with his men.

    This would hold true for 2 man and 5 man Engines (the number not including the officer) I've worked on everthing including and in between and there should be no difference.

    The officer can't lead his men from the rear.

    FTM-PTB

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    In our area the officer would call comand and stay outside, hopefully he can do a couple of things before a Senior or Chief OFficer arrives.
    While the officer is outside they should hopefully be able to do a 360 degree walk around, and also after completing that can assist with engine driver with unkinking hose, attaching lines etc. and then maybe can ask for one status report along with assigning incoming units as well. Once command is passed then the officer will rejoin their crew..........as far as leading ...hopefully the other FF's on the engine can lead themselves to the fire........
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    Dr Very Good Question!, I agree with Weruj1 I would remain outside, do my 360 and act as command until someone higher up arrives, I had an earlier post about my first command, While my crew was inside making an attack, I reamained outside, did my 360, called for additional manpower, had the electric company on the way, and alerted our Fire Investigation Team that we had a working fire, while all this was done, I reamined in contact with my crew and was aware of the situation and conditions inside, had there been less manpower on our truck or some other type circumstance i would have gone in but I had the trust in my crew that they could handle the situation,


    What good would standing outside do the officer.(Besides look good on a nightime drama series) His expertice and supervision would be better put to use inside with his men.
    I completely disagree with that statement, alot needs to be done from a command point of view and what good is a commanding officer when he's inside and can't see what's going outside?? Alot needs to be seen from the outside that a first arriving officer can't see from the inside...
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    The key thing missing in the question is anyone trapped inside the fire if so the fire officer on the 3 man crew should go with his FF and attempt a rescue.If no one is trapped the 3 man crew is not able to enter the structure because of 2 in 2 out OSHA Rule. As for the 5 man crew three FF can go inside the fire structure and the Officer should stay outside and establish a Command Post.

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    Well...here is a can of worms. I will make some comments relating to this but will first qualify the statements by saying that I am not necessarily in favor of them. (Does that make sense? )

    With the scenario you describe you can not meet the dreaded "2 in 2 out" rule as described in OSHA..

    Now...What would I do?

    Opps...looks like there may be a possibility of someone trapped since I have no other information... So.. I establish pass command to the next arriving engine as per protocol (my old department) and myself and the firefighter pull a line and enter while the driver establishes H2O Supply. Additionally he assigns other arriving units. We go in put out the fire and it is a done deal.. Is that optimum way or the safest way to handle it...perhaps not. But to be effective we often have to bend the rules a bit.
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    Once command is passed then the officer will rejoin their crew
    We have a very different way of doing things out here, we wouldn't even pass the job on to the next higher up officer to arrive. The viewpoint here is taken that the person who arrived first is in the best position to see the overall status of the job. While other, senior officers, may "suggest" a course of action for the IC the first on scene officer still remains in charge. It doesn't always work that well, as some officers (especially ones who've come through lateral entry and haven't "Grown up" on this system) will just take control and have a hard time standing down. Also, quite often junior officers will voluntarily stand down.... most senior officers won't let them however, prefering them to rise to the challenge.

    The system works well within the Staff/Career environment of my dept, but sometimes gets a little blurred in the volunteer environment... generally speaking if the fire is in a volunteer controled area, the highest ranking officer from the Primary Volunteer station will be in charge. However, some volunteer stations do take on this ethos, and a captain will let one of his leuitennant's run the show.

    I have been told that this kind of system is very unique to my fire department.... a Station Officer from the not-too-far away Metropolitan Brigade told me last summer that when he gets on-scene at anything bigger than a single-story dwelling fire he just calls his 2nd alarm and waits for his boss to come take over. Where I come from, being an officer means a lot more responsibility.

    As for an officer going interior, out here, never. That's what we have Leading Firefighters for.... to lead.

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    CAPTSTANM1 which scenario does't meet 2 in 2 out rule, and how do you establish command and pass it to the next arriveing officer if you are inside, there is no way the next arriveing officer can know your plan of action unless you talk face to face.

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    Thumbs down

    There is nothing I find more important than the safety of my brothers. Alot of people say they do but then they turn around and do what has been described above.

    --as far as leading ...hopefully the other FF's on the engine can lead themselves to the fire....
    That is the level of acceptable performance at a fire for your dept? That is the leadership of your officers? "Hopefully!?"
    "Lead themselves!?" Lets say you have a nozzle team of two guys and lets say and with 4 years of experience between them(and how many fires do they see in a year?)

    And you as the officer are just going to sit outside and perform all these incredibly important outside tasks such as another guy put it calling the utility company or alerting your Fire Investigation Team?!? What is more important at the time for you as a company officer? Your men or calling the power company? Wouldn't it make more sense to have the dispatcher do this automaticly when you transmitted the signal for a working fire?

    What if your men are calling for help or your Chauffeur is reporting the hydrant isn't working, and you are chatting with dispatch about Arson investigators?

    Or really couldn't that be handled by a later arriving Chief?

    What if you show up at a strip mall, warehouse or a highrise? Go ahead guys I'll be right here! You must be kidding. (Or for their sake I hope you are)

    Historicly succesful fireground operations are based on the officer with his knowledge and expereince (assuming those are what were got him is officers position, not voting or ***-kissing) leading his men and making sure they come out alive.

    What are these other unmentioned Command duties that are more critical than the safety of your men? You ask what good is a commanding officer inside? If your command is a company then you should be inside with them. The pump operator is realitively safe outside and can give you critical info if something happens before the other companies and Chief arrive.

    Who is going to update the Chief once he arrives of your progress or problems encountered. A firefighter with limited experience might not know what critical info the Chief needs to make critical strategic decisions.

    An experienced and confident officer can prevent panic and know when it is time to back out. Just the same he can keep the company moving forward with encouragement when the conditions get tough.

    Does this mean the officer needs to be right next to all of his men at all times? No. The Engine officer's postion needs to be fluid. However if he isn't inside he won't get a picture of what is happening to them and their surroundings as they will probably have tunnel vision. The officer is looking at the big picture INSIDE. Making sure they don't pass any doors, fire or hallways...etc. If you are outside how are you as the officer even remotely aware of conditions on the inside?

    Chief Vincent Dunn notes in his text Command and Control of Fires and Emergencies that when weighing the importance of being inside or outside that there might be only one situation where the initial company officer would be on the outside and that is when the fire is moving from floor to floor on the exterior of the structure rapidly. Thats it. All other times the company officer of the Engine should be focused on tactics inside.

    If you are going inside you are going with an offensive strategy and the next arriving Trucks and Engines should know based on their order of arrival what thier duties should be. Read the Members section article by Capt Dugan on the FH.com homepage for some more insight on that issue.

    The issue of who ever shows up first handing out assignments is another entire issue for another thread.
    The military doesn't send troops into the field without leadership and a plan and neither should you.

    I spent plenty of years working in three depts(Rural and Suburban) that had officers that would let officers stay outside if they wanted to! That type of operation is unsafe and is a joke. Period. And I got the hell out of there to where I am today where all the officers lead the men and don't accept anything less.

    I'll say it again, The officer can't lead from the rear.

    Tonight I'll pray for the brothers that must live and die with such "leadership".

    FTM-PTB

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    On a three man engine company? I'd pass command to the next arriving and start an attack. If I had two or three in the back (excluding myself and the D/O) then I would take command, appoint someone to lead, then send them in and continue to assess the progress from the outside and other IC tasks.

    Third Watch is correct on that idea. We tend to operate on the philosophy that the person who assumes command is in charge unless they decide to pass command up. Command never stays at the same level or goes lower once it is set. It can only go up. A lot of people like it this way, some prefer to hold out until the chief gets there, it comes down to personal preference, but I think that the person who assumes command is command. FDNY has a way that works for them and it may work only for them. I know an assitant chief in Chicago who has said that he hasn't known anyone in Chicago would do it that way.

    It is perfectly acceptable to be working inside while other companies are en route. Others will disagree, but you need to be aggressive to stop a fire's progress when it's relatively contained. Waiting on a second crew to arrive so you can start "2-in, 2-out" is as socially unacceptable as it is politically unacceptable. It has been stated that in emergency situations (situations where immediate intervention is required to save a life) you can do "2-in, 1-out."

    I should try to find that Vincent Dunn book. Very good point. If it's widly out of control by the time the inital company arrives then that officer should be worried about the outside. Initial interior operations on small and medium sized fires should be directed by the initial officer from the inside. The Marines say it best, officers lead the charge from the front and eat last so that they make sure they share the same fate as their men and also make sure they have been taken care of.

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    Shafer607,

    I am curious why is this Plan of Action you mention created up by whoever shows up first at the fire? At 0330 you just show up and "re-write" the book on how to fight fires. A volunteer system might be the only reason you could need such a system.

    I have experience in a system like that where you show up and find out what you are doing as some guy makes up a so called plan. It doesn't work well and it was very inconsistent. Search was some times done...some times it was forgot...sometimes the IC was swamped with assignments and many of us were standing around doing nothing...while the fire continued to burn. There were times no one had the right tools and we had to try to shove the nozzle through the celing to get water on the fire above us.

    It was all to the tune of the IMS structure. It works well for large, slow evolving, events such as natrual disasters. It doesnt' work well for fast moving fires in strutures where peoples lives hang in the balance and seconds can mean the difference between life and death.

    "Passing command" has to be outside? Why the secrets, I suggest being inside where you can update the Chief over the radio on the conditions and progress or lack thereof up to that point...standing outside you won't have a clue and by transmiting the info over the radio other companies not already on scene will have an idea of the conditions they will be facing.

    Wouldn't it be beneficial for you to have a predetermined plan on what you and the other companies will do?

    For a structure fire here goes a overly simplistic plan with a offensive strategy...
    For example=
    -1st Engine. Find water source, Stretch and operate hoseline through the main entrance and up the stairs to protect the primary means of egress, Confine and extinguish fire.
    -1st Truck. Force entry, search find fire, communciate location to engine and vent. Search for and remove all life on fire floor. Check for extension.
    -2nd Engine. Back up line, or floor above for extension.
    -2nd Truck. Search floor above, VES, More venting and check for extension and get the utilities.

    Obviously your dept procedures should be more throrough and tailored to what companies you send. But it really isn't that hard to have everyone on the same page. Just have the most common varraitions outlined and the rest deal with just like an audible in a football game.

    No one would ever say you need the FDNY system, that is foolish...However you SHOULD at least have a system, showing up and passing out assignments isn't a good system and leaves much to chance...I know, I've seen the results of not having a system and Inconsitancy isn't what most FDs want to be known for.

    Norfolk,Va is an excellent example. My understanding is they used the FDNY system as a template and designed thier system using their staffing and buildings. If you look at their SOPs you can see many paralells. However it is uniquely their system for their needs.

    Just figure out the basic types of structures you have and figure out what tactics need to be done then based on your staffing

    I once heard a Lt. put it quite well I thought. It was after reading a NIOSH report regarding the lack of predetermined procedures at a dept that partially led to a death. He asked why would a dept show up and perform like it was a "pickup football" game? Just making up the plan of attack as they went! It was like handing out passing routes on a sandlot football game you played as a kid.

    Instead why don't they have predetermined positions and duties with pritorites outlined for tactics that need to be performed at a fire, much like the Pro Football players that go in with a playbook in their minds. If an QB audible is needed then it can be made under unusuall situations, just like the Chief can modify some things if he sees fit.

    This isn't a new concept. It is a proven system and has been written about in countless trade mags and in the Fire Officers Handbook of Tactics among other texts.

    Stop playing like Amatures and more like Pros...you and your brothers lives depend on it, not to mention the citizens who are expecting a professional fire dept.

    FTM-PTB

    PS-The FDNY does not operate like that as presented in 3rd Watch. I met many guys from all over at FDIC a few years back and all of the instuctors & guys in my HOT classes that I spoke with operated with similar preassigned tools and assignments for 1st alarm companies. There were some expected differences but they always had standing procedures set in place. Granted I was taking Truck Co. classes so most guys were from suburban and urban depts. Also engine1321 what do you mean Chicago wouldn't do it like that? Just curious.
    Last edited by FFFRED; 12-25-2003 at 11:53 PM.

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    In my Dept, it's almost always going to be: B

    As a first in officer, if you're thinking about going in, then exposures are not an issue, otherwise you would be directing efforts there. So, that would mean that in most cases, you have a fire conifined to the structure of origin, and that it's either contents or confined to a room or two. After all, no one goes into full bloomers... so, there really isn't much for you to do outside anyway. Go in, make a quick knockdown, and clean up.

    A fire of this nature in my Dept would bring the following response.

    3 Engines, 1 Truck, and a DC. First in would pull an 1 3/4 pre-connect, 2nd in would pull thier 1 3/4 pre-connect (giving the total amount of water to be put on the fire before supply at 1500 gallons). The 3rd in would catch a plug and supply the 1st in, who would in turn supply the 2cnd. Once the 3rd in is done setting up supply, they would take the 2nd 1 3/4 pre-connect off of the 1st in Engine if needed. The truck would cut utilities, and do a search for victims, while the driver sets up the PPV, after the search the truck crew will pull ceilings etc for extension checks etc. Upon arrival the DC would take over command. That's pretty much it in a nutshell.

    On a side note, I don't think my officer would ever think about sending in a crew without himself being on it.. no matter how much experience they have. He would feel that an officer HAS to be in there if anyone is.
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    Originally posted by engine1321
    It is perfectly acceptable to be working inside while other companies are en route. Others will disagree, but you need to be aggressive to stop a fire's progress when it's relatively contained. Waiting on a second crew to arrive so you can start "2-in, 2-out" is as socially unacceptable as it is politically unacceptable. It has been stated that in emergency situations (situations where immediate intervention is required to save a life) you can do "2-in, 1-out."
    "OSHA defines an incipient stage fire in 29 CFR 1910.1 55(c)(26) as a "fire which is in the initial or beginning stage and which can be controlled or extinguished by portable fire extinguishers, Class II standpipe or small hose systems without the need for protective clothing or breathing apparatus. Any structural fire beyond incipient stage is considered to be an IDLH atmosphere by OSHA."

    How often to we roll up to fires still in their incipient stage? For some, a lot. But these are the smoldering couches, the "food on stoves," etc. If the fire has progressed beyond the incipient stage, flashover is usually not that far away. Think about how long it really takes... it's not a lot of time.

    If there isn't a confirmed life hazard, and you only have 3 people on scene, it is in everyone's best interest to not enter the IDLH environment. Choose another tactic, complete another needed fireground task, or wait for enough staffing.

    Regarding known life hazards:

    "OSHA regulations recognize deviations to regulations in an emergency operation where immediate action is necessary to save a life. For fire department employers, initial attack operations must be organized to ensure that adequate personnel are at the emergency scene prior to any interior attack at a structural fire. If initial attack personnel find a known life hazard situation where immediate action could prevent the loss of life, deviation from the two-in/two-out standard may be permitted, as an exception to the fire department's organizational plan.

    However, such deviations from the regulations must be exceptions and not defacto standard practices. In fact, OSHA may still issue "de minimis" citations for such deviations from the standard, meaning that the citation will not require monetary penalties or corrective action. The exception is for a known life rescue only, not for standard search and rescue activities. When the exception becomes the practice, OSHA citations are authorized."

    -quoted material stolen from numerous sources and publications

    Rescues may be initiated without "2-in/2-out" for victims - confirmed, identified, or observed - trapped inside a building or compartment fire. It needs to be the exception, not the rule though. Also remember the "2-out" need not be outside of the building, simply outside of the IDLH environment. And of course there is some "play room" in here... is a 1.75" line a "small hose system"? Was SCBA necessary to knock the fire down? If you can articulate that it wasn't, you're within the scope of the rule. That is, until someone gets hurt...

    Much of this is mirrored and expanded upon by Chapter 6, Emergency Operations, of NFPA 1500 which also adds stipulations concerning rapid intervention teams, etc.

    Assuming a SFD fire with enough staffing on scene to satisfy all the rules and guidelines, I agree that the officer goes in with the crew. S/he's needed more with the crew. This is not to say that size-ups aren't important. Do it before you go in, and radio your findings to the cavalry.
    Last edited by Resq14; 12-26-2003 at 02:18 AM.
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    Question Well.............

    Structure Fire, or any emergency that would place a crew in a potentially ILDH atmosphere, trips the switch to start "2 in, 2 out".
    IF THERE WAS A RESCUE TO BE MADE, Pass command and go in with your lineman, The Driver is outside doing exterior ventilation, utilities, etc. anything that can support your rescue efforts.
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    Command does not happen from inside.

    That said, it isn't necessarily the first arriving officer's role to be in command.

    Experience & Department General Orders are the guide. Sometimes it's clear the most necessary action is raising a ladder or stretching a line NOW; sometimes it's clear the place you need to be to size-up the situation properly is inside.

    When necessary, pass command to the next arriving officer and take immediate action.

    Next arriving officer doesn't have the flexibility to pass it -- he will be command if 1st one passed it.

    For volunteer departments, mentoring is fine, but like command you don't mentor from the inside. If you're Chief and the Lieutenant is running it, you stay by his side and work as a team. If you're short-handed, the LT gets relieved of command and gets sent inside, not the other way around.

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    {That is the level of acceptable performance at a fire for your dept? That is the leadership of your officers? "Hopefully!?"
    "Lead themselves!?" Lets say you have a nozzle team of two guys and lets say and with 4 years of experience between them(and how many fires do they see in a year?)

    And you as the officer are just going to sit outside and perform all these incredibly important outside tasks such as another guy put it calling the utility company or alerting your Fire Investigation Team?!? What is more important at the time for you as a company officer? Your men or calling the power company? Wouldn't it make more sense to have the dispatcher do this automaticly when you transmitted the signal for a working fire?

    What if your men are calling for help or your Chauffeur is reporting the hydrant isn't working, and you are chatting with dispatch about Arson investigators?

    Or really couldn't that be handled by a later arriving Chief?}


    Let me make my rebuttal to that since it seems to be directed towards my comments, In our area if we arrive on the scene of a working fire it could take up to half and hour for the Electric company to get there, that puts alot of my guys @ risk, therefore i send them as quickly as possible, as far as Fire Investigation goes, although I don't agree with it our local SOG's are that it is up to the Fire Ground Commander to decide if they want fire investigation or not, I'm not saying I'd never go into a fire as a first due officer, but my personal preference is to stay outside and assume command resposibilites until a chief arrives (2-3) minutes and as far as the comment about chatting with dispatch here is my entire radio transmission as I said it @ a trailer fire in which i was first arriving officer:

    "Owego Command to Tioga, notify NYSEG and also have Fire Investigation Team respond to my scene"
    Not much "chit chat" going on there?? Also as far "my men" and where would I spend my time, I spend alot of time training and responding to calls with my men, and I'd trust everyone of them to attack a fire and know the situation without having to be watched over by an officer, I can see where others are coming from but my personal opinion seems to be different than others
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    I should mention that we have a follow 2 in 2 out, and being in a double company if we were the first engine in, the Truck is right there with us. We almost NEVER operate with only 3 FF's on the Engine, and the Truck is always supposed to be at 4.

    As per our SOP's we are supposed to establish an I-RIT before going in. In a first in situation for us, the I-RIT is the drivers of the Engine & truck, until more units arrive to make up a RIT. We can enter without an established I-RIT to search only, but we are not supposed to enguage in fire suppression duties, unless the fire is preventing us from doing a complete search.

    But, to answer the question, again.. if we were the only unit on the scene, with only 3 people, we would have to wait for either a truck or another engine, so we could establish an I-RIT, to go in. Unless, there are reports of trapped persons, or if it is unknown if people are inside.

    In a "normal" case for us (4 men), if we are the only unit there, the driver and one FF will make up the I-RIT, and the officer and other FF will go in.
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    Originally posted by 33motor
    Unless, there are reports of trapped persons, or if it is unknown if people are inside.
    I'm not saying it's right or wrong... just that "unknown" isn't good enough justification for entry into IDLH environment as an exception to the rule.

    Perhaps you could articulate that due to time of day, vehicles in yard, lack of contact with residents on arrival... but the standard really is pretty black and white on the matter.

    With 3 people, it's an interesting question.

    "I thought I heard someone yelling for help..."



    I try to remind myself that they wrote many of these due to FF's being killed in situations where only property was at risk. If we are to take on some risk protecting property and searching for potential victims, we need to ensure our safety with adequate staffing and safety measures. That's the whole point I think.
    Last edited by Resq14; 12-27-2003 at 03:54 AM.
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  19. #19
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    In response to FRRRED's comments, I would like to say that if no one is command your scene will got to hell in a handbasket faster than a NASCAR, period. I trust that in the few minutes it takes for a Chief to arrive the first engine crew should be able to get teh line in place to begin supression efforts. In my department a Chief almost always responds on every run, so most times we arrive first due, so we have command before the first arrving unit.
    IACOJ both divisions and PROUD OF IT !
    Pardon me sir.. .....but I believe we are all over here !
    ATTENTION ALL SHOPPERS: Will the dead horse please report to the forums.(thanks Motown)
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    I'm sorry, I haven't been paying much attention for the last 3 hours.....what were we discussing?
    "but I guarentee you I will FF your arse off" from>
    http://www.firehouse.com/forums/show...60#post1137060post 115

  20. #20
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    QUOTE]We almost NEVER operate with only 3 FF's on the Engine, and the Truck is always supposed to be at 4. [/QUOTE]
    It's lots different in a combo department like where I work.
    The pagers go off and the paid guy, if there's one scheduled to work, takes the first out pumper. If the Chief is at the station or there's a second paid guy then he will take the second out truck, a tanker. Upon arriving on scene the pumper is put in pump gear and the firefighter starts pulling the attack preconnects. The paid guy is in charge until one of the Chiefs shows up. When the tanker arrives the tanker driver hooks to the attack pumper and then takes over operating both trucks while the driver of the attack pumper starts defensive actions. Since the first in guy is busy putting water on the fire the guy operating the pumps on the pumper and tanker will pretty much take over. Any volunteers responding from home or work will pick up trucks from any stations along their route. Tanker trucks will roll first, then pumpers, then service units. The 3rd truck on scene should be a tanker. It's driver will hook to the primary tanker, fill it then disconnect and race for a refill from the closest hydrant. Any pumpers arriving after that can be used for additional water supply or equiptment. On weekdays we call for mutual aid from Baton Rouge. Most weekends or evenings there's usually plenty of volunteers available to work a structure fire. They will arrive either in their POVs or driving a Truck. We have no real accountability system such as tags or clips. We count vehicles. If there are 5 fire trucks and 4 POVs parked on scene then we know we have a total of 9 firefighters there. You just dress out, put on a pack and find a job that needs doing. If You get there and the tanker is hooked to the pumper but the paid guy is by himself on the handline then you either help him with his line or you grab the other line and yell back to the pump operator to "Let it Rip, Baby." Most of the time the Chief will arrive in a pumper which is parked in a substation a short distance from his house. How do you KNOW the Chief has arrived on scene? You are spraying away with your handline when suddenly the shingles and wood on the roof above you are blasted away by a jet of water (we call it hydraulic venting). Turn around and look at the top of the second in pumper. The short guy in the Fire Tshirt and shorts aiming at the roof with the monitor gun with the smoothbore nozzle will be him. He has 1000 gallons of water and he's gonna dump it right down the dragons throat. By the time we have enough people for interior attack, ie 2in-2out, the structure is usually either: a-completely engulfed which means we ain't going in anyway, b-has been almost completely extinguished by exterior operations from a couple of handlines and Papa Smurf on his magic Monitor gun.

  21. #21
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    The key here is that you are the officer of a three-man crew. If you as the officer stay outside then who is inside with your remaining firefighter?

    Upon arrival perform your 360 walk around while your nozzleman stretches the line to your point of entry. Once you've given the incoming IC your size-up over the radio, make entry with your nozzleman, assuming you are making an interior attack.

    Now before everyone starts saying "but the IC needs to be outside" let me say this. Ideally, yes. However, on a three-man crew how do you justify sending one man inside alone. Once the IC arrives on scene he can and should be getting updates from you periodically anyway.

    Everyone is reading to much into the question. It was a simple question to start and everyone is trying to complicate the kids question.

  22. #22
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    I am sorry I did misread the post .......the 3 person crew part ......thats very short handed and would definetly have to change tactics and opinons ........I was basing my opinion on a 4 person crew .....so my choice for this is "something else".
    IACOJ both divisions and PROUD OF IT !
    Pardon me sir.. .....but I believe we are all over here !
    ATTENTION ALL SHOPPERS: Will the dead horse please report to the forums.(thanks Motown)
    RAY WAS HERE 08/28/05
    LETHA' FOREVA' ! 010607
    I'm sorry, I haven't been paying much attention for the last 3 hours.....what were we discussing?
    "but I guarentee you I will FF your arse off" from>
    http://www.firehouse.com/forums/show...60#post1137060post 115

  23. #23
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    3 FFs that will be with Big Red (has 2000 gal water)and the tanker. FF pulls 1 3/4 preconnect; officer puts pump in gear,helps tanker connect to pumper, tanker driver helps first FF, officer gives FFs water and does a walk around. If the structure is fully involved we set up the monitor and start calling for tankers. Not fancy, but VFDs work with what we have.
    Stay Safe ~ The Dragon Still Bites!

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    Looks like it might be time for another WWYD that will cover this subject nicely, albeit that I'm going to add a couple of extra firefighters to the first due. This time it will be based on the way that Australian fire departments operate just to make everyone think a little different - or laugh that we try to do so much with so little

    See new thread http://cms.firehouse.com/forums2/sho...threadid=55772
    Last edited by stillPSFB; 12-29-2003 at 06:33 AM.
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  25. #25
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    I'll be honest, I haven't read every word of every post, so I apologize if I'm repeating someone else's statements. With that said ...

    Command does not happen from inside.
    I vaguely remember a training video on incident command, narrated by Alan Brunacini, which demonstrated an engine officer running command, from inside, during a working fire, prior to the Battalion Chief's arrival. Just something to think about ...

    Now, what would I do?

    I would drop my 5" at the hydrant, do a scene survey while the FF riding the line stretches to the point of entry, call dispatch and advise them to have the first in truck take side 1 (or whatever side is appropriate), have the next in engine pick up my 5", have the next arriving officer (hopefully the Battalion Chief) assume command, and I would go in w/ my crew.

    Stay Safe

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