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  1. #1
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    Default Since this seems to be a hot topic as of late and I'm curious......

    I started a new thread because the other thread that this was being discussed and argued upon was originally posted for a different reason. There has been a lot of talk regarding the differing beliefs of those who post here. The term "atheist" has been brought up quite a lot and I got to wondering what exactly is the difference between being an Atheist and an Agnostic; both seem quite similar. And for those of you who claim to be Atheist, is it that you do not believe in a higher power period, or you believe that there's something out there just not God? Keep this civil guys, I pose this question because I'm genuinely curious as to what the difference is between the two terms, and which of the two you fall under (for those that it applies to)


    Main Entry: athe·ist
    Pronunciation: 'A-thE-ist
    Function: noun
    Date: 1571
    : one who denies the existence of God


    Main Entry: 1ag·nos·tic
    Pronunciation: ag-'näs-tik, &g-
    Function: noun
    Etymology: Greek agnOstos unknown, unknowable, from a- + gnOstos known, from gignOskein to know
    Date: 1869
    : a person who holds the view that any ultimate reality (as God) is unknown and prob. unknowable; broadly : one who is not committed to believing in either the existence or the nonexistence of God or a god




    Just to make this a little more interesting, how do you explain the "unexplainable". For instance, people who are ill, and are expected to die and suddenly all signs of illness are gone; or who recover from said illness and go on to live many more years. Say for instance doctors deem a tumor inoperable because of size and location, but decide to take a biopsy since they are "in there" anyway. When they make their cut the tumor hemmorhages and they end up having to remove it anyway, when originally they weren't going to remove it because of the immediate danger to life if they did; but the end result was that they had to take the risk. Also, if it had been left intact, if the biopsy would have been the only thing taken the pt would certainly die as the tumor was malignant. So how do you explain this....... coincidence...... or the intervention of a higher power........ a miracle ???? What about all the sick and infirm who make the trip to Lourdes every year and come away "cured"? Obviously there is something there, now is it higher power or positive thinking aka mind over matter (belief that the prayers you are saying are going to work)?

    Again, I ask you to keep this as a civil "debate" or discussion, whatever you want to call it. Let's be adults and not bash or attack someone for having different belief's than our own. Everyone believes what they believe for reasons of their own.
    Last edited by PFire23; 12-27-2003 at 01:45 AM.
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    Dyslexic Association News Buletin.

    This Monday at 7.30 pm a debate will be held in the association hall, the topic this week "Is there a Dog."
    Psychiatrists state 1 in 4 people has a mental illness.
    Look at three of your friends, if they are ok, your it.

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    Real quick: an 'atheist' is someone who says there is positively NO God, while an 'agnostic' is someone who is doubtful, or hasn't really made up their mind or isn't really sure about the existence of God.

    In other words, an agnostic leaves room to be convinced that perhaps there is a God. He/she is undecided. I get along fine with them (I'm a Christian). Atheists, on the other hand, take the very-unscientific approach of saying that there can't be a God. One of the basic rules of science is that you can't say that something does not exist. I don't get along so well with them, since I think that that belief is irrational.
    Last edited by Catrina; 12-27-2003 at 12:47 PM.

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    Originally posted by FlyingKiwi
    Dyslexic Association News Buletin.

    This Monday at 7.30 pm a debate will be held in the association hall, the topic this week "Is there a Dog."
    In the same vein...

    What do you get when you cross an an insomniac, an agnostic and a dyslexic person?

    Someone who stays up all night wondering if there is a dog!
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
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    And if there isn't a Dog, then where did the expression "Dog Tired" come from?

    or "Dog Eared" for that matter.

    how about "Dogged Determination"

    or "Hair of the Dog"?

    I give up, this topic is way to complex for my mind.
    Psychiatrists state 1 in 4 people has a mental illness.
    Look at three of your friends, if they are ok, your it.

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    Forget raining cats and dogs. How about Republican Athiest!
    I dont suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.

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    Originally posted by Catrina
    Atheists, on the other hand, take the very-unscientific approach of saying that there can't be a God. One of the basic rules of science is that you can't say that something does not exist. I don't get along so well with them, since I think that that belief is irrational.
    I can't say I agree with you there at all. Actually, I'd say the opposite and say that Atheists DO take a scientific approach of saying there can't be a God. They take the Evolution route and instead of believing God created life they take the scientific route and say that life evolved into what we have now.

    I won't say too much in this debate, however, because it is one that comes up ALL the time, no matter where you are, and it has the same points being tossed around over and over and over.

    The position I take is mathematical in that Christians (for examples) and Atheists come to the same conclusion (we're here, and we're alive) but they believe a different equation was used. So basically to get the answer "6" Christians say:

    (1 * 2) + 4 = 6

    ...and Atheists say:

    (1 * 4) + 2 = 6

    Christians say life began when God started it (made things smash, put his hand down and did some finger-painting to create life) and Athiests say life began when things crashed together and out of all the chaos life began. (C'mon, all Christians repeat after me.."exactly, and God is the one that made that happen"....you know you were thinking it!)

    *I* say that the universe has always been and always will be, so out of that it was inevitable that life took place, and in the future (could be in 2 thousand years, could be in 42 Gazillion bazzilion mazzillion*** years) it will happen again. Maybe not life as we know it, but life. The universe has never "started" and will never "end". It just always HAS been and always WILL be. Accept it.

    ....and that's all I have to say about that.

    Steven


    *** If you try and tell me this isn't a number, it actually is. Numbers are infinite so somewhere down the line this is an actual number. Stick THAT in your pipe and smoke it!

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    So, does anything exist?
    If so, then how and why?
    Got a light?

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    Cogito, ergo repugno flamma..

    I think, therefore, I fight fire!
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
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    Genesis 1

    The Account of Creation

    1In the beginning God created[1] the heavens and the earth. 2The earth was empty, a formless mass cloaked in darkness. And the Spirit of God was hovering over its surface. 3Then God said, "Let there be light," and there was light. 4And God saw that it was good. Then he separated the light from the darkness. 5God called the light "day" and the darkness "night." Together these made up one day.
    6And God said, "Let there be space between the waters, to separate water from water." 7And so it was. God made this space to separate the waters above from the waters below. 8And God called the space "sky." This happened on the second day.
    9And God said, "Let the waters beneath the sky be gathered into one place so dry ground may appear." And so it was. 10God named the dry ground "land" and the water "seas." And God saw that it was good. 11Then God said, "Let the land burst forth with every sort of grass and seed-bearing plant. And let there be trees that grow seed-bearing fruit. The seeds will then produce the kinds of plants and trees from which they came." And so it was. 12The land was filled with seed-bearing plants and trees, and their seeds produced plants and trees of like kind. And God saw that it was good. 13This all happened on the third day.
    14And God said, "Let bright lights appear in the sky to separate the day from the night. They will be signs to mark off the seasons, the days, and the years. 15Let their light shine down upon the earth." And so it was. 16For God made two great lights, the sun and the moon, to shine down upon the earth. The greater one, the sun, presides during the day; the lesser one, the moon, presides through the night. He also made the stars. 17God set these lights in the heavens to light the earth, 18to govern the day and the night, and to separate the light from the darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19This all happened on the fourth day.
    20And God said, "Let the waters swarm with fish and other life. Let the skies be filled with birds of every kind." 21So God created great sea creatures and every sort of fish and every kind of bird. And God saw that it was good. 22Then God blessed them, saying, "Let the fish multiply and fill the oceans. Let the birds increase and fill the earth." 23This all happened on the fifth day.
    24And God said, "Let the earth bring forth every kind of animal--livestock, small animals, and wildlife." And so it was. 25God made all sorts of wild animals, livestock, and small animals, each able to reproduce more of its own kind. And God saw that it was good.
    26Then God said, "Let us make people[2] in our image, to be like ourselves. They will be masters over all life--the fish in the sea, the birds in the sky, and all the livestock, wild animals,[3] and small animals."
    27
    So God created people in his own image;
    God patterned them after himself;
    male and female he created them.
    28God blessed them and told them, "Multiply and fill the earth and subdue it. Be masters over the fish and birds and all the animals." 29And God said, "Look! I have given you the seed-bearing plants throughout the earth and all the fruit trees for your food. 30And I have given all the grasses and other green plants to the animals and birds for their food." And so it was. 31Then God looked over all he had made, and he saw that it was excellent in every way. This all happened on the sixth day.

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    Default Sorry, I couldn't resist

    Genesis 1981


    Talk to me, you never talk to me.
    Ooh, it seems that I can speak.
    I can hear my voice shoutin' out.

    But there's no reply at all.

    Look at me, you never look at me.
    Ooh, I've been sittin, starin', seems so long.
    But you're lookin' through me
    Like I wasn't here at all.

    No reply. There's no reply at all.

    Dance with me, you never dance with me.
    Ooh, it seems that I can move.
    I'm close to you, close as I can get.

    Yet there's no reply at all.
    There's no reply at all.

    Be with me. Seems you're never here with me.
    Ooh, I've been tryin' to get over there.
    Oh, but it's out of my reach.

    And there's no reply at all.
    There's no reply at all.

    I get the feelin' you're tryin' to tell me;
    Is there somethin' that I should know?
    What excuse are you tryin' to sell me?
    Should I be readin' stop or go?
    I don't know.

    Be with me. Seems you're never here with me.
    Ooh, I've been tryin' to get over there.
    Oh, but it's out of my reach.

    And there's no reply at all.
    There's no reply at all.

    I get the feelin' you're tryin' to tell me;
    Is there somethin' that I should know?
    What excuse are you tryin' to sell me?
    Should I be readin' stop or go?
    I don't know.

    Maybe deep down inside,
    I'm tryin' for no one else but me,
    too stubborn to say, "The buck stops here.
    I'm not the one you're lookin' for."

    But maybe deep down inside, I'm lyin'
    To no one else but me.
    Oh, but my back is up. I'm on my guard
    With all the exits sealed.

    Listen to me, you never listen to me.
    Oooh, and it seems there's no way out.
    I've been tryin' but we cannot connect.

    And there's no reply at all.
    There's no reply at all.
    There's no reply at all.
    No reply at all.
    Is anybody list'nin? Oh, there's no reply at all...
    "We shouldn't be opening firehouses in Baghdad and closing them in New York City."

    IACOJ

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    The one thing I do know is there ain't no athiests in foxholes or trapped in burning buildings.

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    Default Re: Since this seems to be a hot topic as of late and I'm curious......

    Originally posted by PFire23
    Just to make this a little more interesting, how do you explain the "unexplainable".

    By definition, this would be impossible.
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    So if God created Adam and Eve, and told them to multiply...wouldn't that be incest for generations to come?

    "29And God said, "Look! I have given you the seed-bearing plants throughout the earth and all the fruit trees for your food." - so why do people starve?

    Why are people born with physical defects? Why are people born that suffer for a few days and then die? Why do evil people live and have the ability to kill good people? Why do we live in fear of others?
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Originally posted by Bones42
    So if God created Adam and Eve, and told them to multiply...wouldn't that be incest for generations to come?

    "29And God said, "Look! I have given you the seed-bearing plants throughout the earth and all the fruit trees for your food." - so why do people starve?

    Why are people born with physical defects? Why are people born that suffer for a few days and then die? Why do evil people live and have the ability to kill good people? Why do we live in fear of others?

    John 13:7 - Jesus answered him, "What I am doing you do not know now, but afterward you will understand."


    My 6 year-old son was born with a bilateral cleft lip and palate, left lambdoid craniosynostosis, a left iris coloboma and profound deafness in his left ear,as well as substantial hearing loss in his right ear. He had four major surgeries before he was one year old.

    I do not understand why he was subjected to this. I do know that a deep abiding faith and prayer have helped him to overcome these ailments to become a normal, joyful, athletic, intelligent and loving young man. I do not question my faith, but my wife and I have learned much about ourselves and our faith during this time.
    2 Corinthians 12:9-10 9 but he said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." I will all the more gladly boast of my weaknesses, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. 10 For the sake of Christ, then, I am content with weaknesses, insults, hardships, persecutions, and calamities; for when I am weak, then I am strong.
    Last edited by GeorgeWendtCFI; 12-29-2003 at 12:01 PM.

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    Atheists, on the other hand, take the very-unscientific approach of saying that there can't be a God. One of the basic rules of science is that you can't say that something does not exist. I don't get along so well with them, since I think that that belief is irrational.
    It is not un-scientific, in the least. The "god" that Christians "worship" in general can, in fact, NOT exist. It is impossible. The entire concepts of perfection and being all-powerful are unobtainable. Perfection, of course, is in the eye of the beholder. As I'm sure you've been asked before, can your "god" create a rock that even he cannot lift? This simple question destroys the "all-powerful" argument, no intellectual debate needed. As for being "irrational," I'm afraid that's pretty funny, coming from someone who believes the fables of the bible as being real and factual. Being an atheist is not something you are; it's something you aren't. The attempt by religious zealots to call "atheism" a form of religion (mostly a political power-move), is silly. It is NOT a belief system. This would be akin to saying that not collecting stamps is a hobby.
    Last edited by ThNozzleman; 12-29-2003 at 01:54 PM.

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    Who cares?

    You believe what you want (or don't want) and I will believe what I want. Unless someone comes out and says it, I would probably not know an atheist from a Jew, so who cares?

    If Atheism is not a religion or a belief system, than why are Christians, Jews, Protestants and other religions in this country forced to become slaves to atheism in the public arena? Everytime someone mentions a phrase that even borders support for an organized religion and a creator, they are persecuted by a small number of people who deny the existence of God.

    I would go out on a limb here and say the majority of people in this nation believe in some form of organizaed religion. If that is the case, why do we always lose when one guy pops out of the Crapper and says he is offended by it? Screw Em'! If you don't like my religion, deal with it. I deal with your non-religion on a daily basis. Stop whining and get over it.

  18. #18
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    Originally posted by ThNozzleman

    It is not un-scientific, in the least. The "god" that Christians "worship" in general can, in fact, NOT exist. It is impossible.

    As for being "irrational," I'm afraid that's pretty funny, coming from someone who believes the fables of the bible as being real and factual.
    Ah, ThNozzleman has reared his head again. And he's anti-Christian ! Surprise, surprise.

    Why is the concept of a God impossible? Have you been everywhere in every place in the universe at the same time to determine that God does not exist? I believe that even from a scientific standpoint, the concept of a God is very likely indeed. *Grabs chemistry book* The 1st law of thermodynamics states that "matter cannot be created or destroyed. If this is true (and it is unless you would contradict a scientific law) then that means one of two things.
    1. The universe is eternal in its present form.
    2. The universe was created at some point in time.
    The first cannot be true, according to the second law of thermodynamics, which basically says that during any energy transformation, some energy goes to a permanently unusable form. This supports the idea of 'entropy,'--the gradually disorder of a system. The universe is hence like a wound-up clock: one day it will stop running from lack of usable energy. Can there be any doubt that the universe is indeed deteriorating? If this is true (and I have shown that it MUST be true) then the universe must have had a beginning, much like the clock must have been wound up. So I have just disproved statement #1, and proved statement #2. So the universe must have had a beginning, when it was created.
    If my premise that the universe was created is correct, that means that someone or something must have created it. Let's say I took that same watch, and carefully took it apart, piece by piece, then placed each of those pieces into a bag. Now I'm going to shake the bag...for 10 billion years. What are the chances that i am going to pull out a perfectly assembled watch? Slim to none, to say the least.
    Now for my point...finally. Someone intellingent who knew what he was doing must have created the universe--God. Science itself demands that there must be a God. I see no other answer.

    Thanks for bearing with me in my monologue. I am far from eloquent, but there are far more articulate people than myself who believe and can better explain this concept.

    I was not aware that the Bible was a collection of fables. To me, it is a book that makes a whole darn lot of sense. I have looked at the matter logically, and I have determined that it is most likely that the Bible is correct. Add a little faith to this, and you have the reasons for why I am a Christian.

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    Originally posted by ThNozzleman

    As I'm sure you've been asked before, can your "god" create a rock that even he cannot lift? This simple question destroys the "all-powerful" argument, no intellectual debate needed.

    God is not confined by human limitations. We humans are confined by what we can and cannot do. God is not. There is no such thing as something he cannot lift. That is like using megabytes to measure the volume of water--it can't be done, because those are two separate things. Comparing God's abilities to that of a human is impossible. I just got way over my head with this concept, but I hope you understand what I mean.

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    And what are the other 8 planets in our little piece of the solar system? Mistakes, leftovers, not yet finished, ??? God only wanted 1 earth and that's it? He only wanted 1 place which is A) overpopulating itself B) using up all of it's natural resources C) poluting itself D) killing most of it's nature

    Sorry Catrina, scientifically, I have to go with the Big Bang theory over the "just made it" theory.

    Why is the concept of a God impossible?
    Why is the concept of no God impossible?


    And no, I'm not an atheist.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Originally posted by Bones42
    And what are the other 8 planets in our little piece of the solar system? Mistakes, leftovers, not yet finished, ??? God only wanted 1 earth and that's it? He only wanted 1 place which is A) overpopulating itself B) using up all of it's natural resources C) poluting itself D) killing most of it's nature

    Sorry Catrina, scientifically, I have to go with the Big Bang theory over the "just made it" theory.

    Why is the concept of no God impossible?

    God, for some reason, doesn't have to explain why he chose to make 8 other planets in our solar system instead of just 1 or 563. Nor does he have to. Nor do I see why it is of any importance.

    God made the earth perfect. It is humans like you and I who messed it up. It is entirely our fault, not God's. I'd be happy to elaborate on that if anyone is interested.

    I love how people throw around 'scientifically' like they know what they're talking about. I'll bet you are just repeating what your college professors told you. Try thinking for yourself. Or if you really believe the BBT, tell me why. Be specific.

    I didn't say it was impossible. I'll even go so far to admit that I could be wrong. I strongly doubt it, but it's possible. But let me pose this question: what if you were wrong, and the whole concept of God and Jesus and Christianity were true? Then what? Just think about it.

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    Default bless you

    Catrina, I am with you on what you have said and may God's blessings be many. Bones, the bible says that God created Heaven and Earth. He is the master of the universe and if their was a big bang God created it.

    IACOJ (ret)

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    So here's a question for you........ WHY do you believe what you believe? Was there a defining moment in your lives that caused you to believe or disbelieve??? that strengthened your faith or tore it apart? Do you believe just because it's easier to do so? Do you disbelieve just because it's easier to do so? Do you have the beliefs that you do because you were brought up with them?
    To the world you might be one person, but to one person you just might be the world.

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    What led to my beliefs? Many years of going to church, going through religious education classes, college education, and my personal look at life and what's going on. Too many things don't add up to me and that is why I question them. A book written by people many years ago simply is not providing credible answers.

    I'll bet you are just repeating what your college professors told you.
    and many are repeating what they read in a book written by people, just like a science book.

    what if you were wrong, and the whole concept of God and Jesus and Christianity were true?
    I guess we'll all know when we die because we'll all see each other in Heaven. or we'll simply become worm food. Forgive my ignorance, but isn't Muslim the most common religion in the world? Is that a form of Christianity with God and Jesus?

    God created Heaven and Earth.
    So Mars, Mercury, Saturn, and all the other planets along with all the other solar systems in the universe are Heaven? or just scrap material?


    Catrina, I am not trying to change any of your opinions or beliefs. I honestly have no problem with your beliefs. I do think for myself, I'm not simply regurgitating information. I know you and others are on the side of the believers, and I know TheNozzleman and others are not. I'm not out to convince anyone either way. I have some questions, no one has answered them to my satisfaction, that's all. Very simple. Show me some proof that God created everything and I'll probably agree. Right now, I see science showing more evidence of things than the Church.

    Question: How old is the Bible?
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Question: How old is the Bible?
    Really Fin old! How do we know if it was one way back when it was first made and no one could read and it changed to what it is now when can read? Does anyone thing that the "big bang" was a nuke war and we are the after product from cockroaches or something? There is no way to tell if its true or not true, if it happened or didnt, if there is a god or isnt. So this whole thread is just gonna get old like every single one of its kind and die off because ITS THE SAME THING OVER AND OVER AGIAN! Im just pointing out stuff you all can debate it. I just decided to give my 1/2 cent on the topic.

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