1. #1
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    Question pa rules and regs conserning non-trained personnel

    i am looking for a document under fema, osha, or pema that would state when it is safe for a fire company to say that it is ok for a non-essentials trained person can go into a fire. any help on finding this information will be greatly appreciated.

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    1) PA is not an OSHA state/commonwealth so it doesn't really matter what OSHA might have to say on the matter.

    2) PEMA has no rules or regulations regarding the matter either.

    This is strictly an in-house situation driven by your company's desire to be as professional as possible and your insurance company. If your municipality provides the worker's comp insurance that would be the best place to start. Also if your relief association provides additional benefits insurance they may have some regulations also.

    The best thing you can do is try to get a good set of enforcable SOG's in place and make sure they are adhered to.
    Steve Dragon
    FFII, Fire Instructor II, Fire Officer I, Fire Appartus Driver Operator Certified
    Volunteers are never "off duty".
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    thank you for your info,,,i think that it gave us the necessary direction to follow. if you can find any other info it would also be greatly apprieciated

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    I'm venturing a guess here. Are you trying to find support for letting explorers/juniors go interior at a structure fire??
    Even the burger-flippers at McDonald's probably have some McWackers.

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    No member of a fire dept who is under the age of 18 and is not trained for interior fire surpression should or is allowed to enter a burning structure for any reason. There is no way to get around the law. It is for your safety and the safety of all of the firefighters involved. As an explorer or Junior, you are there to learn and get to know the job so when you do become of age to be a full structural firefighter, you'll be better prepared for it. Junior firefighters and/or explorers are a good help as far as fire ground support, if properly trained. But NO as far as trying to get the rules to bend alittle to allow explorers or juniors to enter.

    Plus, PEMA,FEMA,OSHA have no say in fire supression rules. They are federal disaster management agencies. OSHA deals with only around the station issues. The law's that govern what is allowed on the fire ground is set by dept bi-law, NFPA fire laws.

    I know its a drag not being able to go in and kick some fire butt, but it takes time to develop and learn the proper interior attack operations. I myself cant go in on a fire and I am 20. This is due to my small stature and low body wieght coupled with physical medical limitations on strength and adgility. However I am perfectly happy outside, because if everyone went interior, none of the nessicary exterior work would be done. For IE: go-foring, traffic/crowd control, scott-pak changing such vital tasks as that.

    so dont be in such a rush to go in, it will come with age and proper training.

    hope this helps.

    Jeremy M

    City of Cortland Fire Dept (career/volunteer dept)
    Volunteer Firefighter
    Emerald Hose Co.4
    Cortland County,NY
    http://www.cnyfiretrucks.com/cd/cortland.html

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    Not really true OSHA also has a general duty clause to maintain a safe work environment. Do not think that if something happens real bad on the fireground they cannot get you for not maintaining safety.

    OSHA also deals with Hazmat and Bloodborne Path. both in and out of the station.

    Do not think that OSHA can not hang you out to dry they can. I think it is important to remember that NFPA can adopt parts of OSHA and vice versa.

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    If you live in an OSHA state, you can't wear an SCBA or go interior as a junior/exploerer. Period. End of discussion. If you are in a non-OSHA state, you probably thave the same rules anyway, if not about the SCBA, than about interior operations. That is the way it should be.
    Even the burger-flippers at McDonald's probably have some McWackers.

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    Originally posted by cfdny2
    Plus, PEMA,FEMA,OSHA have no say in fire supression rules. They are federal disaster management agencies. OSHA deals with only around the station issues. The law's that govern what is allowed on the fire ground is set by dept bi-law, NFPA fire laws.
    Lot's of misunderstanding here. OSHA standards include "2-in/2-out" and the rest of the respiratory protection standards. They play a very large role in safety. This is assuming you are an OSHA state (or your state adopts OSHA standards, which most non-OSHA states do).

    NFPA is not law unless your state formally declares it or portions thereof as law.

    I'd suggest researching such issues with your state bureau of labor (or similar agency). They tend to have a field day when it comes to kids and the fire service -- for the better.

    Here is Pennsylvania law:
    Section 7.3. Minor Volunteer Fire Company, Volunteer Ambulance Corps, Volunteer Rescue Squads and
    Volunteer Forest Fire Crew Member Activities.
    (a) Minors who are members of a volunteer fire company and volunteer forest fire crew may participate
    in training and fire-fighting activities as follows:
    (1) Drivers of trucks, ambulances or other official fire vehicles must be eighteen years of age.
    (2) Minors sixteen and seventeen years of age who have successfully completed a course of
    training equal to the standards for basic fire-fighting established by the Department of Education and the
    Department of Environmental Resources, may engage in fire-fighting activities provided that such minors
    are under the direct supervision and control of the fire chief, an experienced line officer or a
    designated forest fire warden.
    (3) No person under eighteen years of age shall be permitted to
    (i) operate an aerial ladder, aerial platform or hydraulic jack,
    (ii) use rubber electrical gloves, insulated wire gloves, insulated wire cutters, life nets or
    acetylene cutting units,
    (iii) operate the pumps of any fire vehicle while at the scene of a fire, or
    (iv) enter a burning structure.
    (b) The activities of minors under sixteen years of age shall be limited to:
    (1) Training.
    (2) First aid.
    - 5 -
    (3) Clean-up service at the scene of a fire, outside the structure, after the fire has been
    declared by the fire official in charge to be under control.
    (4) Coffee wagon and food services.
    (c) In no case, however, shall minors under sixteen years of age be permitted to:
    (1) Operate high pressure hose lines, except during training activities;
    (2) Ascend ladders, except during training activities; or
    (3) Enter a burning structure.
    (d) All other activities by minors who are members of a volunteer fire company or a volunteer forest
    fire crewman shall be permissible unless specifically prohibited by this act.
    (e) No rule or regulation of any State agency concerning minor volunteer firemen shall be adopted or
    promulgated except by amendment to this act.
    (f) All other existing provisions of this act and the regulations promulgated thereunder affecting the
    employment of minors shall be applicable in all cases, including the requirements for employment certificates
    and the limitations on hours of employment: Provided, That a minor sixteen or seventeen years of age who
    is a member of a volunteer fire company who answers a fire call while lawfully employed and continues in
    such service until excused by the one acting as chief of that fire company shall not be considered in violation
    of this act for any part of the period so occupied: And further provided, That a minor who is fourteen or
    fifteen years of age, who is a member of a volunteer fire company and who performs the training or firefighting
    activities permitted for such minor under the provisions of this act between the hours of seven
    o'clock in the evening and ten o'clock in the evening before a day of school with written parental consent
    shall not be considered in violation of this act.
    (g) Any minor who is a member of a volunteer ambulance corps or rescue squad may participate in
    training and any other activity as provided by regulations adopted by the Department of Labor and Industry
    but in any case, drivers of all ambulances or other official ambulance corps or rescue squad vehicles must be
    eighteen years of age.
    (7.3 amended Dec. 21, 1998, P.L. 1242, No. 158)
    http://www.dli.state.pa.us/landi/lib.../llc/a-177.pdf
    Last edited by Resq14; 01-11-2004 at 06:38 AM.
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  9. #9
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    Thank you for the quote Resq14 I could not get the board to do that. Still need more practice with this thing. That is exactly what I was getting it at. Only at 2 in the morning I am not sure I was making any cents

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