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  1. #26
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    Originally posted by ciffret
    PFire23,Please do not start another verbal war about what has happened in the past. As firefighters it is our duty to be brothers and sisters. We need to build bridges not walls.

    IACOJ(ret)
    This is not the first time some "maroon" has come on this forum and posted sheer idiocy. Imachair is not a brother, nor a sister.
    Imachair is a moron who is here for one reason only...trying to stir the pot to see what rises to the top. Personally, I think he/she is the matter that sinks to the bottom of the bowl.

    Hey webteam...how about a "courtesy flush" for "imachair"?
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    I am quite sure that "imachair" is probably someone we all know under another name. I find it hard to believe that someone decided to join the forums based on this thread. imacoward would be a more accurate screen name.
    "We shouldn't be opening firehouses in Baghdad and closing them in New York City."

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    The ignore box has already been struck for our idiot friend.

    But back to the real topic here, I find the fight bad enough, but the cover up is really disturbing. I can sort of understand the boys trying to protect a brother, but anything that could possibly interfere with his receiving proper care for his injuries is irresponsible.

    On a related note, I would also have expected multiple facial fractures like that to warrant an immobilized ambulance ride instead of the back seat of a car. If he had that kind of facial damage plus the fall to the floor, I would certainly be worried about spinal and/or unstable skull fractures.

    Just my take from reading the articles.
    Last edited by mcaldwell; 01-03-2004 at 01:25 AM.
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    Default HOLD IT

    I am not trying to protect Imachair by no means. I agree flush him. I don't want to see past wars restarted. It sure has been quiet on that front for the past week.
    We do need to build bridges and not walls, but we can't do it without a team.

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  5. #30
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    imachair:
    It appears that you want to be a comedian. Well, in comedy, TIMING is everything. Your timing sucks. Go to the small clubs, work on your material and then go to a website that favors jocularity.
    Now, for the rest of the students here, I have a question.
    It appears from the news account that there was a history between these two guys. I believe the article said the two didn't like each other and would verbally spar. With others around them that must have known their history, then why on earth didn't someone intervene when the chair was raised in a threatening manner? Two careers could have been saved if anyone else would have stepped up to diffuse the situation.
    I abhor workplace violence and especially when it should not have risen to that level so easily. Just a simple "hey, you two; knock it off" might have been just enough to end it. Yeah; that's hindsight talking, but man, oh man; this was an eye blink from being a homicide.
    The delay smacks of a cover up and the duty officer will have to answer for that. Obviously, it's an embarassment for FDNY, but they are such a resilient department. They will come back from this.
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  6. #31
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    On a related note, I would also have expected multiple facial fractures like that to warrant an immobilized ambulance ride instead of the back seat of a car. If he had that kind of facial damage plus the fall to the floor, I would certainly be worried about spinal and/or unstable skull fractures.
    You're right. Some concern for a brother, huh? I've treated two patients in my day who were ambulatory, asking to sign off, who had basal skull fractures.

    The coverup could be a criminal matter more serious than the assault.

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    I think maybe some people are getting a lot of exercise jumping to conclusions. Using words like " coverup" and "systemic problems in fire station" will only inflame the old rumor mill. This may have been 2 guys who just plain didn't like each other for whatever reason, and it got out of hand. As far as transport in a car rather than ambulance, iut may show lack of judgement, but we don't know how bad the injuries appeared initially. This does not mean that there was an attempt to cover up. As far as firefighters not cooperating, its not right, but it is understandable. Guys tend to look out for their brothers.
    I think the guy who hit him will probably lose his job and may even do time for serious assault. If the other firefighter succumbs to his injuries, I guess murder or manslaughter will be charged. I don't think anyone should start shouting coverup or worse until some actual facts are in, not just media reports

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    As far as transport in a car rather than ambulance, iut may show lack of judgement, but we don't know how bad the injuries appeared initially. This does not mean that there was an attempt to cover up.
    Bryan Loader. Allow me to quote from Georges post.



    Investigators said the firefighters who brought Walsh to the hospital told doctors he got hurt falling down stairs - but the severity of his injuries made doctors suspicious, and they called FDNY headquarters at around 11:30 p.m. to tell them an injured firefighter had been brought in.
    Is that plain enough english for you to realize there was an attempt to cover it up?
    "We shouldn't be opening firehouses in Baghdad and closing them in New York City."

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  9. #34
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    Duffman
    What I read into that is 1 firefighter covering up for another. It does not mean there was a cover up involving the station or officers. This is not a particularly unusual situation involving a scrap between 2 guys. I sure don't condone it or think it is right, but it does not constitute a cover up involving any more than 1 firefighter IF, and I emphasize IF, the media reports are right. I didn't see anything on here to indicate any other problems involving the dept or this particular fire station. I don't think anyone should conclude there was anything more sinister than a stupid fight that got out of hand, and one guy tried to keep it in house.

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    Default Bryan, again from the same post.

    Other firefighters, including the house's top officer, Capt. Terrence Sweeney, helped him into a car and drove him to Staten Island University Hospital.
    The house's top officer. Go back to page one and read the story posted by GeorgeWendtCFI.

    Denial isn't just a river in Africa.
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    The first "What the F***" of 2004.
    We have had guys mad at each other. Their has been some pushing and shoving in the past. But it was handled before it got out of hand.
    Right now we have two guys that don't serve out of the same station because of bad blood. This unfortunate incident is probably directly related to bad management.
    Let's just learn from this so none of you are next on the news.
    Our prayers are with Bob for a quick and full recovery, and Michael that he gets the help he needs.

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    Default Re: Bryan, again from the same post.

    Originally posted by Duffman


    The house's top officer. Go back to page one and read the story posted by GeorgeWendtCFI.

    Denial isn't just a river in Africa.
    Thanks Duff

    Let me point out that I didn't make up the possibility of a coverup. That is what the articles say and the police indicate they are looking into.

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    quote:

    "As far as transport in a car rather than ambulance, it may show lack of judgement, but we don't know how bad the injuries appeared initially. This does not mean that there was an attempt to cover up."


    It's very possible that the injured firefighter refused a ride in an ambulance and insisted upon riding in the car. The article said that he was ambulatory and walked into the E.R. Not to bring personal experience into the mix, but my father fell off a roof once and was having trouble breathing (broken ribs) and adamantly stated that he wasn't going to be taken away in "some damned meat wagon," so we took him by car to the hospital.

  14. #39
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    Originally posted by kentbwj
    quote:

    "As far as transport in a car rather than ambulance, it may show lack of judgement, but we don't know how bad the injuries appeared initially. This does not mean that there was an attempt to cover up."


    It's very possible that the injured firefighter refused a ride in an ambulance and insisted upon riding in the car. The article said that he was ambulatory and walked into the E.R. Not to bring personal experience into the mix, but my father fell off a roof once and was having trouble breathing (broken ribs) and adamantly stated that he wasn't going to be taken away in "some damned meat wagon," so we took him by car to the hospital.
    Apples and oranges here....

    The incident happened to an on duty firefighter at shift change.

    Getting hit in the head with a chair swung like a baseball bat is bound to cause massive head trauma...and it turned out it did.

    in my opinion, the company officer should have called for a bus. If the firefighter refused transport to the hospital in the bus, the CO should have ordered him into the bus and dealt with the potential fallout afterwards. The safety of our personnel is paramount and supercedes anyones vanity about being in an ambulance.
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  15. #40
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    Default What?

    I find it interesting that there is discussion about how the victim got to the hospital, the possibility of a cover up, one was going off duty and one was coming on duty, car vs. ambulance, C-spine stabilization, etc. Don't get me wrong; at some point, that should all be considered, but let me see; what is the problem that I have will this? Oh yeah:
    A BROTHER FIREFIGHTER GOT MAD ENOUGH TO BREAK THE FACE OF A FELLOW FIREFIGHTER!
    At the moment, I don't care if he got to the hospital by magic carpet or Santa's sleigh. A situation that WAS ALLOWED TO ESCALATE is on course to derail TWO careers. So I guess the question that I have is: where in the hell was the intervention? He used a chair. It could have easily been a gun. This isn't your garden variety tiff!
    When the "hostile work environment" shat storm gets started, it will worm its way through every station house in New York City. The alleged "cover up" will be a minor hiccup at that point.
    NYC insurance carrier had better sharpen its pencil to fill in the number followed by several zeroes.
    My opinion.
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  16. #41
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    And it wasn't just one person trying to cover it up by saying he fell. I believe the main story on FH also says that someone else said that he was in a car accident.......

    It's a shame that this happened. Like CR says, this workplace violence crap has got to stop!! We're all adults and need to act like it!

  17. #42
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    Default Re: What?

    There is no place for violent psychos in this buisness, there is already enough varied and interesting things to kill and maim us, we dont need to be ducking chairs and BS like that.

    Realy, this entire story, it realy has me shakeing my head.

    Maybe I have been in a few more scuffles then the average guy (1 broken jaw, many black eyes, a few broken knuckles, and a lot of interesting stories ) , but by God when somebody picks up a chair in a threatening manner, I sure as hell aint gonna sit their grinning wiating to get smaked. I cant belive that the guy would just sit there and wait. I have seen a lot of bar fights go like that, and I decided long ago that a good offence is the best defense. Weather you think the guy is going to swing or not, DO SOMETHING!!! Like move out of reach, kick his arse, SOMETHING!!!

    The verbal sparring bull and such, that has is also very very bad. That is what leads to incidents like Columbine High, Mike Tyson press conferences, and sadly this incident.

    Sometimes a guy can just keep going at another guy to the point where they realy do snap, and for a few very dangerous moments, are not themselves. This seems to me what happened.

    Not related to his story, just something I have seen where I live. Big guys often get a complex. I hate to call it a bully complex, but a sort of untouchable complex. They think because of their size they are not going to be mesed with. This can lead to them pushing buttons of people they think they intimidate. This can realy REALY backfire when they push the wrong button.
    -Brotherhood: I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.
    -Mistakes: It could be that the purpose of you life is to serve as a warning to others.

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  18. #43
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    Default Firefighter arraigned on assault charges

    Published in the Asbury Park Press 1/03/04
    THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
    NEW YORK -- A city firefighter pleaded innocent yesterday to charges he assaulted a fellow firefighter who lives in Sea Bright with a chair, critically injuring him, as authorities investigated whether an attempt was made to cover up the incident.

    Michael Silvestri, 41, was charged with multiple counts of assault, harassment and criminal possession of a weapon.

    Robert Walsh, 40, remained in critical but stable condition yesterday at Staten Island University Hospital's north campus. Walsh sustained multiple facial fractures, including a broken nose and jaw.

    The two men had been horsing around when things turned serious inside Engine Company 151 in Tottenville on Staten Island about 6 p.m. Wednesday, and Silvestri allegedly picked up a steel chair and whacked Walsh.

    Bail was set at $1,000 for Silvestri, who is due back in court Feb. 3. His attorney, Ronald Kleigerman, said he had yet to discuss the case with his client.

    Kleigerman would not comment on allegations that fellow firefighters tried to cover up the assault instead of calling police. According to a police source, who spoke on condition of anonymity, police weren't notified until about eight hours after the incident.

    Fire Commissioner Nicholas Scoppetta said his department is investigating the alleged assault as well as "administrative processes, procedures, regulations that may have been violated by firefighters."

    Scoppetta said a battalion chief was notified after the incident that a firefighter had been injured. But fire officials had to sort out conflicting stories given to them from the firefighters, so police were not notified until 2:30 a.m. Thursday.

    "There was a report that he had fallen down the stairs, there was another report that he had been in a car accident," Scoppetta said.

    The police source said two plainclothes firefighters took Walsh to the hospital about 6:30 p.m. and told officials there that he had fallen down a flight of steps. The firefighters became concerned when doctors put Walsh under an induced coma to relieve the swelling on his brain, and called the firehouse, the source said.

    Firehouse officials then contacted FDNY headquarters in Brooklyn to report the incident, but police were not notified until a fire marshal walked into the 123rd Precinct and reported the incident at 2:30 a.m. Thursday, the source said.

    Back at the hospital, doctors were concerned when the firefighters' story of how Walsh was injured kept changing, the source said, and they too contacted FDNY headquarters. The source said firefighters cleaned up the firehouse, which allegedly was covered with blood from the alleged brawl, right after Walsh was taken to the hospital.

    Silvestri, a firefighter since 1988, was suspended without pay Thursday pending the investigation.

    Walsh joined the FDNY in 1995. Family members said Thursday that Walsh maintains an apartment in Staten Island to meet FDNY residency requirements, but his home has always been the Jersey Shore.

    He graduated from Raritan High School in Hazlet, enlisted in the Navy and, when he returned, worked security at bars such Donovan's Reef and Tradewinds before joining FDNY.

    The Asbury Park Press contributed to this story.
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    Maybe I have been in a few more scuffles then the average guy (1 broken jaw, many black eyes, a few broken knuckles, and a lot of interesting stories ) , but by God when somebody picks up a chair in a threatening manner, I sure as hell aint gonna sit their grinning wiating to get smaked. I cant belive that the guy would just sit there and wait. I have seen a lot of bar fights go like that, and I decided long ago that a good offence is the best defense. Weather you think the guy is going to swing or not, DO SOMETHING!!! Like move out of reach, kick his arse, SOMETHING!!!
    Not related to his story, just something I have seen where I live. Big guys often get a complex. I hate to call it a bully complex, but a sort of untouchable complex. They think because of their size they are not going to be mesed with. This can lead to them pushing buttons of people they think they intimidate. This can realy REALY backfire when they push the wrong button.
    BLAME THE VICTIM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    Despicable.

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    Hello,

    Has anyone herd where the Officer in Charge was in this situation? Was he or she just a spectator? The person in charge owed it to that department and everyone at that department to keep any possible personel disruptions out of there. From what I read there was some history of verbal sparing. How about that union that everyone in that department pays $$$ to every month. Is there a shop Stuart that informs the union? Do they get involved? Will they at this point? I don't know how personnel issues are conducted in this fire department. Does anyone here know? Please Comment

    Thanks,
    CM

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    Default does anyone read anymore?

    Has anyone herd where the Officer in Charge was in this situation? Was he or she just a spectator? The person in charge owed it to that department and everyone at that department to keep any possible personel disruptions out of there. From what I read there was some history of verbal sparing. How about that union that everyone in that department pays $$$ to every month. Is there a shop Stuart that informs the union? Do they get involved? Will they at this point? I don't know how personnel issues are conducted in this fire department. Does anyone here know? Please Comment
    Ok, look. If you aren't going to take the time to read the thread don't post to it. If you had read you would know that the house's Capt. was one of those who drove him to the hospital. That is if you even knew he went to the hospital via car.

    The union will be involved. They will make sure the departments disciplinary policy is followed in accordance with their CBA and the law.

    The union will also be there for the family of the injured FF.

    I say this with no more knowledge of FDNY than anyone else who lives half a country away. I am fairly sure that I am not mistaken in how the union will respond.

    Most likely we won't hear much from the FDNY contingent on this one, and I understand why.
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  22. #47
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    There are five stories to be told here.
    1st The Media (they just want to sell there BS)
    2nd Firefighter 1
    3rd Firefighter 2
    4th The BROTHERS and then there's
    #5 The Truth.
    So why don't you wait till the truth is told before you make comments on this FORUM?
    Last edited by E40FDNYL35; 01-04-2004 at 11:07 AM.
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    Im with you. Its an FDNY problem that the media has gotten a hold of. It will be worked out by the Job, Union , Police, and those involved. If I can be honest, I dont see what business it is of firefighters outside that house, let alone outside the FDNY.

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    Originally posted by GeorgeWendtCFI



    BLAME THE VICTIM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    Despicable.


    Putting words in peoples mouths.

    Despicable.

    And par for the course from you evidently.

    Pointing out the basics of self defense is not blaming the victim, it is preventing someone from becomeing a victim.
    -Brotherhood: I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.
    -Mistakes: It could be that the purpose of you life is to serve as a warning to others.

    -Adversity: That which does not kill me postpones the inevitable.

    -Despair: Its always darkest before it goes Pitch Black.

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    I am quite sure that "imachair" is probably someone we all know under another name. I find it hard to believe that someone decided to join the forums based on this thread. imacoward would be a more accurate screen name.
    I am with George and Duffman on this one... This person (He/She) has a lot to say but seems only so since this incident.....Hmmmmmmm Wonder who it could be?

    E40FDNYL35 says:
    So why don't you wait till the truth is told before you make comments on this FORUM?
    Ray, I can not agree with you more. That is why my original post passed no judgement but expressed concern for those involved.
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