1. #51
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    Default Re: does anyone read anymore?

    Originally posted by Duffman


    Ok, look. If you aren't going to take the time to read the thread don't post to it. If you had read you would know that the house's Capt. was one of those who drove him to the hospital. That is if you even knew he went to the hospital via car.

    Hello,

    I went back and read the article. I didn't realize the officer in charge was Captain Terrence Sweeney. He was one of the plain clothes fighters. Thank you for pointing that out for me.

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    MattyJ wrote:
    Im with you. Its an FDNY problem that the media has gotten a hold of. It will be worked out by the Job, Union , Police, and those involved. If I can be honest, I dont see what business it is of firefighters outside that house, let alone outside the FDNY.
    Well, let's see; for starters, like it or not, FDNY became "America's Team" after 9/11. Books, T-shirts, hats; anything with an FDNY logo on it flew off the shelves. FDNY firefighters were dispatched to say "thanks" to cities all around the country. Donations continue. Like it or not, FDNY is still in the hearts and minds of many "outside" of the department. But you want to keep it "in house"?
    Tell that to the wife and his mom and dad. Tell them it's none of their business too. To hear your logic, they should have put the victim in a 55 gallon drum and stuck him in the station's storage room. There; now it will stay "in house".
    Tell you what; out of respect to the FDNY, I will not engage in speculation, but if you could, MattyJ, please explain to me how YOU would have handled a situation that involved two of your firefighters who got into a fistfight and one required emergency medical treatment at an emergency room for his injuries. Tell what you would have done, hypothetically, of course, and I promise not to alert the Associated Press. By the way, you should probably contact them and tell them it's none of their business, either.
    The story is out. People have questions. People have opinions. People have theories. And people have a right to discuss it...here in these forums. If you don't like it; don't participate. But don't tell us that we don't have the right.
    All's I wanted to know is how a situation gets to the level of violence that was described in the AP article.
    Prudent people won't make assumptions until the "facts" of the case comes out. But there will be many questions and they should be asked.
    Period.
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    Angry

    You know bothers me, 2 guys fight and its front page news, there is a LODD and its 3rd 4th page news......

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    Originally posted by SamsonFCDES




    Putting words in peoples mouths.

    Despicable.

    And par for the course from you evidently.

    Pointing out the basics of self defense is not blaming the victim, it is preventing someone from becomeing a victim.
    I didn't put words in anyone's mouth. I posted your words verbatim to back up my post. If a reasonable person followed your logic, if a rape victim allows herself to be sexaully assualted, it's her fault because she didn't fight back, even if she was bigger than her assailant.

    What's par for the course for me is pointing it out when someone says something out of line...like balming the victim.
    Last edited by GeorgeWendtCFI; 01-05-2004 at 02:36 PM.

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    Ray, I don't care if these two guys punched the living daylights out of each other. That is not news.

    What's newsworthy here, is the very evident attempt at covering up this incident. That, in and of itself, is criminal. In NJ, it is a charge more serious than the assualt (2nd degree Official Misconduct) and would pretty much guarantee a jail sentence.

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    Arrow

    Well, let's see; for starters, like it or not, FDNY became "America's Team" after 9/11. Books, T-shirts, hats; anything with an FDNY logo on it flew off the shelves.
    And this entitles you to what? This isn't Access Hollywood.

    To hear your logic, they should have put the victim in a 55 gallon drum and stuck him in the station's storage room. There; now it will stay "in house".
    To hear your "logic" CR it would seem that because the FDNY was burdened with this unimaginable tragedy(9/11) and you and your buddies bought T-shirts this entitles you to an all access pass backstage.

    Floating unanswerable questions and theories about a situation you have no clue about makes you no better than the media whores who wrote these articles in the first place.

    "Like it or not" This is none of your business. Until all the FACTS come out, Drop it and move on. Period.

    FTM-PTB

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    "Like it or not" This is none of your business. Until all the FACTS come out, Drop it and move on. Period.
    Who in the hell do you think you are?

    It was on the front page of the NY Post. It is the lead story on this website. We didn't make it up. It's out there. Excuse the living daylights out of us if we have an opinion. You don't have to agree with it. You don't even have to read it. But you don't own this website. The FDNY is no different than any other FD in this country. We have a RIGHT to have an opinion and discuss our opinions. Period.

  8. #58
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    George in all due respect this took place in New York. The Officers will not go to jail for there part or lack of. Like I said, wait till the facts are in before you post.

    The Post looks to sell papers. They don't have all the facts. But it does sell newspapers...
    Last edited by E40FDNYL35; 01-04-2004 at 04:42 PM.
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    Originally posted by E40FDNYL35
    George in all due respect this took place in New York. The Officers will not go to jail for there part or lack of. Like I said, wait till the facts are in before you post.
    With all due respect also, I clearly said that I was referring to NJ law. I am presently looking at the NY law to satisfy my own curiosity. As I have said, opinions are permitted here.

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    I suppose it would be to much to ask for an informed opinion.

    FTM-PTB

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    Originally posted by FFFRED
    I suppose it would be to much to ask for an informed opinion.

    FTM-PTB
    I think that you will find that my opinion is based on what I know about the incident. You see, I haven't yet posted a single word about any single individual (except that moron posting about the chair). My opinion, so far, is limited to the incident itself.

    I also would venture to guess that, if this were any other FD in the country, you guys would be doing worse. There are plenty of other examples.

    You may also be underestimating my direct knowledge of this incident.

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    Default FFFRED; Glad you singled me out.

    FFFRED wrote:
    To hear your "logic" CR it would seem that because the FDNY was burdened with this unimaginable tragedy(9/11) and you and your buddies bought T-shirts this entitles you to an all access pass backstage.

    Floating unanswerable questions and theories about a situation you have no clue about makes you no better than the media whores who wrote these articles in the first place.

    "Like it or not" This is none of your business. Until all the FACTS come out, Drop it and move on. Period.
    First of all, FRED; FDNY has always, at least in my mind, been THE nation's finest; bar none.
    Second; what me and my "buddies" did post 9/11 doesn't entitle me or anyone else to anything!
    Third; if you hadn't been so quick to want to make this personal, you would have read my posts more carefully and discovered that the only thing I would like to know is how it got so out of hand.
    Fourth; the world we live in is PUBLIC SAFETY. Key word: PUBLIC. Not when it's convenient, but 24/7. If you wanted to be deceitful and dishonest or worse yet, someone who believes that it doesn't apply to them, then you got into the wrong business.
    Fifth; if #4 gets you angry, save your breath. It's none of your business.
    Sixth; I DO have clues about workplace violence. I am a loss control specialist. I teach classes about it. Don't tell me that I don't know anything about it.
    Seventh; I have been called worse than a media whore by better people than you.
    Eighth; YOU don't decide what is and isn't my business. "Facts" are subjective and I have no intention of dropping it and moving on.
    Nineth; I didn't know you were the self appointed spokesperson for the FDNY. Since you're not, I will choose to ignore your advice.
    Tenth; Again, if you don't like the discussion, ignore it and move on. Period.
    Sorry the kids had to see this.
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    Default Re: FFFRED; Glad you singled me out.

    Originally posted by ChiefReason
    FFFRED wrote:
    First of all, FRED; FDNY has always, at least in my mind, been THE nation's finest; bar none.
    Second; what me and my "buddies" did post 9/11 doesn't entitle me or anyone else to anything!
    Third; if you hadn't been so quick to want to make this personal, you would have read my posts more carefully and discovered that the only thing I would like to know is how it got so out of hand.
    Fourth; the world we live in is PUBLIC SAFETY. Key word: PUBLIC. Not when it's convenient, but 24/7. If you wanted to be deceitful and dishonest or worse yet, someone who believes that it doesn't apply to them, then you got into the wrong business.
    Fifth; if #4 gets you angry, save your breath. It's none of your business.
    Sixth; I DO have clues about workplace violence. I am a loss control specialist. I teach classes about it. Don't tell me that I don't know anything about it.
    Seventh; I have been called worse than a media whore by better people than you.
    Eighth; YOU don't decide what is and isn't my business. "Facts" are subjective and I have no intention of dropping it and moving on.
    Nineth; I didn't know you were the self appointed spokesperson for the FDNY. Since you're not, I will choose to ignore your advice.
    Tenth; Again, if you don't like the discussion, ignore it and move on. Period.
    Sorry the kids had to see this.
    CR
    Amen, sir. Amen. Period.

  14. #64
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    Floating unanswerable questions and theories about a situation you have no clue about makes you no better than the media whores who wrote these articles in the first place.
    And just what is wrong with the media reporting it? If it had occurred at any other workplace would you feel this way?

    Would there be all of this anger about it being in the newspaper if it had happened at a public works garage or at city hall? Why exactly should it be kept a secret because it happened at a firehouse?

    I don't care what department it was, it is news and it will be reported.

    Fred explain to me exactly why this should not have been reported in the news. If you want to bury your head in the sand and ignore everything that goes on in the world that might make someone look bad go ahead. The rest of us will keep on living in reality.
    Last edited by Duffman; 01-04-2004 at 06:26 PM.
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    Chief, you're reading alot into what I said. Where do I ever say anything about your rights??? And where did I say it should be kept " in house"??? Relax.
    If you want to put "in house" in my mouth, fine...in house, meaning the members who were there, the FDNY, the NYPD, UFA, and the famlies of the two involved. I DO work for the FDNY, and dont feel its my business to add my two cents. Thats what the Union and the people who run the job are there for.

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    Oh I almost forgot.....PERIOD

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    George, just out of curiosity I wonderd (forgive me if this had been asked and I missed it.) what kind of penalty would New York law afford to some who tamperd with eveidence? In tampering I mean the cleaning of blood and removeal of the chair before and investgation. Is it even tampering?

    TIA
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    MattyJ wrote:
    Its an FDNY problem that the media has gotten a hold of. It will be worked out by the Job, Union , Police, and those involved. If I can be honest, I dont see what business it is of firefighters outside that house, let alone outside the FDNY.
    MattyJ: I apologize. I thought the opposite of "outside" was inside!
    MattyJ wrote:
    Relax.
    I was engaged in a discussion on these forums, when, all of a sudden, a couple of posters come in here and tell us it's none of our business. Damn "Freedom of Speech"!
    MattyJ wrote:
    I DO work for the FDNY, and dont feel its my business to add my two cents.
    And I respect that. So, could you answer the hypothetical question that I posed to you, so we can discuss it? I mean, since you don't want us discussing the other "alleged" incident, then perhaps we could discuss that?
    No one has posted anything that has indicated in any way that anyone is guilty. No one has said that he should lose his job. No one has said anything of the kind.
    Oh and I almost forgot...
    MattyJ wrote:
    PERIOD
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    Duff,

    I'll ask you a question, If this had occured at a public works garage or any other place of work do you think it would have made the paper as an article on the 5th page...let alone the entire front page spread?
    It would have made the police blotter and that is about it.

    I agree with Matty J and based on your earlier comments I agree with you as well, this a personell matter really isn't any of your or my business, as he said it will be delt with by the appropriate parties...however since it is out in the open, I did say "Until all the FACTS come out, Drop it and move on." Once all the facts are out you can talk all you want. But until then it seems a little premature to discuss anything without all the facts.

    FTM-PTB

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    When have we ever seen all the facts surrounding a story (especially one like this). The best we get is each persons view of what happened, and it is up to us to decide where we think the truth actually lies.

    I don't see a problem discussing it. I'm sure it is a problem at other halls as well. I view this incident the same as any other injury on the job. We can and should take it and learn what we can so we can avoid it in the future.
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    Default stress?

    Not to use 9/11 as an excuse, but I would bet that NY area ff's are feeling extra stress in the aftermath. Might have been one factor?

    -JT

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    Originally posted by stm4710
    George, just out of curiosity I wonderd (forgive me if this had been asked and I missed it.) what kind of penalty would New York law afford to some who tamperd with eveidence? In tampering I mean the cleaning of blood and removeal of the chair before and investgation. Is it even tampering?

    TIA
    I am a cop in NJ, not NY. I really have no idea. That is why I kept prefacng my remarks as I did. I am researching it to satisfy my own curiosity, but I am not going to interpret NY law here. That is out of my realm of expertise.

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    If FDNY had taken care of this "inhouse", the problem may not have occurred.

    I'll hang on CR's side on this, how could anyone let it get this bad to allow a guy to pick up a chair ready to swing it, and not stop him?
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Originally posted by GeorgeWendtCFI


    I didn't put words in anyone's mouth. I posted your words verbatim to back up my post. Following your logic, if a rape victim allows herself to be sexaully assualted, it's her fault because she didn't fight back, even if she was bigger than her assailant.

    What's par for the course for me is pointing it out when someone says something out of line...like balming the victim.
    Reality check GW, you put words in peoples mouths more then anybody else on this forum. Just like the above, you are telling everybody what I believe in regaurds to rape victim issues. That is an issue that has nothing to do with this topic, to my knowledge has never been brought up on this forum, and quite frankly if way WAY off.

    I find that very offensive, and I dont appreciate you PUTTING WORDS IN MY MOUTH!. That is exactly what you are doing, again.

    It is very hipcritical to start a paragraph with "I didn't put words in anyone's mouth." and then procede to tell the forum all about how I view rape victims.

    Like I said, that is your SOP in nearly every thread that I see you in.

    You can evedently pull what ever you want from between the lines so it realy doesnt matter what I post. I might as well just leave a blank post and let you fill it in for me, saves me the carple tunnel.

    How about I just post a link to a few pictures that sum up how I feel about rape. Hell, a picture is worth a 1000 words so I will save you some typing GW.

    http://www.a-human-right.com/RKBA/guessing_s.jpg

    http://www.a-human-right.com/RKBA/possum_s.jpg

    http://www.a-human-right.com/RKBA/twoways_s.jpg
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    and what does all this have to do with a fight in a NY firehouse?
    You guys want to argue, PM each other. Leave the rest of us out of it.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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