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  1. #61
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    Originally posted by FFFRED
    I suppose it would be to much to ask for an informed opinion.

    FTM-PTB
    I think that you will find that my opinion is based on what I know about the incident. You see, I haven't yet posted a single word about any single individual (except that moron posting about the chair). My opinion, so far, is limited to the incident itself.

    I also would venture to guess that, if this were any other FD in the country, you guys would be doing worse. There are plenty of other examples.

    You may also be underestimating my direct knowledge of this incident.


  2. #62
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    Default FFFRED; Glad you singled me out.

    FFFRED wrote:
    To hear your "logic" CR it would seem that because the FDNY was burdened with this unimaginable tragedy(9/11) and you and your buddies bought T-shirts this entitles you to an all access pass backstage.

    Floating unanswerable questions and theories about a situation you have no clue about makes you no better than the media whores who wrote these articles in the first place.

    "Like it or not" This is none of your business. Until all the FACTS come out, Drop it and move on. Period.
    First of all, FRED; FDNY has always, at least in my mind, been THE nation's finest; bar none.
    Second; what me and my "buddies" did post 9/11 doesn't entitle me or anyone else to anything!
    Third; if you hadn't been so quick to want to make this personal, you would have read my posts more carefully and discovered that the only thing I would like to know is how it got so out of hand.
    Fourth; the world we live in is PUBLIC SAFETY. Key word: PUBLIC. Not when it's convenient, but 24/7. If you wanted to be deceitful and dishonest or worse yet, someone who believes that it doesn't apply to them, then you got into the wrong business.
    Fifth; if #4 gets you angry, save your breath. It's none of your business.
    Sixth; I DO have clues about workplace violence. I am a loss control specialist. I teach classes about it. Don't tell me that I don't know anything about it.
    Seventh; I have been called worse than a media whore by better people than you.
    Eighth; YOU don't decide what is and isn't my business. "Facts" are subjective and I have no intention of dropping it and moving on.
    Nineth; I didn't know you were the self appointed spokesperson for the FDNY. Since you're not, I will choose to ignore your advice.
    Tenth; Again, if you don't like the discussion, ignore it and move on. Period.
    Sorry the kids had to see this.
    CR
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    Remember Bradley Golden (9/25/01)
    RIP HOF Robert J. Compton(ENG6511)

  3. #63
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    Default Re: FFFRED; Glad you singled me out.

    Originally posted by ChiefReason
    FFFRED wrote:
    First of all, FRED; FDNY has always, at least in my mind, been THE nation's finest; bar none.
    Second; what me and my "buddies" did post 9/11 doesn't entitle me or anyone else to anything!
    Third; if you hadn't been so quick to want to make this personal, you would have read my posts more carefully and discovered that the only thing I would like to know is how it got so out of hand.
    Fourth; the world we live in is PUBLIC SAFETY. Key word: PUBLIC. Not when it's convenient, but 24/7. If you wanted to be deceitful and dishonest or worse yet, someone who believes that it doesn't apply to them, then you got into the wrong business.
    Fifth; if #4 gets you angry, save your breath. It's none of your business.
    Sixth; I DO have clues about workplace violence. I am a loss control specialist. I teach classes about it. Don't tell me that I don't know anything about it.
    Seventh; I have been called worse than a media whore by better people than you.
    Eighth; YOU don't decide what is and isn't my business. "Facts" are subjective and I have no intention of dropping it and moving on.
    Nineth; I didn't know you were the self appointed spokesperson for the FDNY. Since you're not, I will choose to ignore your advice.
    Tenth; Again, if you don't like the discussion, ignore it and move on. Period.
    Sorry the kids had to see this.
    CR
    Amen, sir. Amen. Period.

  4. #64
    MembersZone Subscriber Duffman's Avatar
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    Floating unanswerable questions and theories about a situation you have no clue about makes you no better than the media whores who wrote these articles in the first place.
    And just what is wrong with the media reporting it? If it had occurred at any other workplace would you feel this way?

    Would there be all of this anger about it being in the newspaper if it had happened at a public works garage or at city hall? Why exactly should it be kept a secret because it happened at a firehouse?

    I don't care what department it was, it is news and it will be reported.

    Fred explain to me exactly why this should not have been reported in the news. If you want to bury your head in the sand and ignore everything that goes on in the world that might make someone look bad go ahead. The rest of us will keep on living in reality.
    Last edited by Duffman; 01-04-2004 at 05:26 PM.
    "We shouldn't be opening firehouses in Baghdad and closing them in New York City."

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  5. #65
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    Chief, you're reading alot into what I said. Where do I ever say anything about your rights??? And where did I say it should be kept " in house"??? Relax.
    If you want to put "in house" in my mouth, fine...in house, meaning the members who were there, the FDNY, the NYPD, UFA, and the famlies of the two involved. I DO work for the FDNY, and dont feel its my business to add my two cents. Thats what the Union and the people who run the job are there for.

  6. #66
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    Oh I almost forgot.....PERIOD

  7. #67
    Forum Member stm4710's Avatar
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    George, just out of curiosity I wonderd (forgive me if this had been asked and I missed it.) what kind of penalty would New York law afford to some who tamperd with eveidence? In tampering I mean the cleaning of blood and removeal of the chair before and investgation. Is it even tampering?

    TIA
    I dont suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.

  8. #68
    MembersZone Subscriber ChiefReason's Avatar
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    MattyJ wrote:
    Its an FDNY problem that the media has gotten a hold of. It will be worked out by the Job, Union , Police, and those involved. If I can be honest, I dont see what business it is of firefighters outside that house, let alone outside the FDNY.
    MattyJ: I apologize. I thought the opposite of "outside" was inside!
    MattyJ wrote:
    Relax.
    I was engaged in a discussion on these forums, when, all of a sudden, a couple of posters come in here and tell us it's none of our business. Damn "Freedom of Speech"!
    MattyJ wrote:
    I DO work for the FDNY, and dont feel its my business to add my two cents.
    And I respect that. So, could you answer the hypothetical question that I posed to you, so we can discuss it? I mean, since you don't want us discussing the other "alleged" incident, then perhaps we could discuss that?
    No one has posted anything that has indicated in any way that anyone is guilty. No one has said that he should lose his job. No one has said anything of the kind.
    Oh and I almost forgot...
    MattyJ wrote:
    PERIOD
    DITTO.
    CR
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  9. #69
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    Arrow

    Duff,

    I'll ask you a question, If this had occured at a public works garage or any other place of work do you think it would have made the paper as an article on the 5th page...let alone the entire front page spread?
    It would have made the police blotter and that is about it.

    I agree with Matty J and based on your earlier comments I agree with you as well, this a personell matter really isn't any of your or my business, as he said it will be delt with by the appropriate parties...however since it is out in the open, I did say "Until all the FACTS come out, Drop it and move on." Once all the facts are out you can talk all you want. But until then it seems a little premature to discuss anything without all the facts.

    FTM-PTB

  10. #70
    MembersZone Subscriber mcaldwell's Avatar
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    When have we ever seen all the facts surrounding a story (especially one like this). The best we get is each persons view of what happened, and it is up to us to decide where we think the truth actually lies.

    I don't see a problem discussing it. I'm sure it is a problem at other halls as well. I view this incident the same as any other injury on the job. We can and should take it and learn what we can so we can avoid it in the future.
    Never argue with an Idiot. They drag you down to their level, and then beat you with experience!

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  11. #71
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    Default stress?

    Not to use 9/11 as an excuse, but I would bet that NY area ff's are feeling extra stress in the aftermath. Might have been one factor?

    -JT

  12. #72
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    Originally posted by stm4710
    George, just out of curiosity I wonderd (forgive me if this had been asked and I missed it.) what kind of penalty would New York law afford to some who tamperd with eveidence? In tampering I mean the cleaning of blood and removeal of the chair before and investgation. Is it even tampering?

    TIA
    I am a cop in NJ, not NY. I really have no idea. That is why I kept prefacng my remarks as I did. I am researching it to satisfy my own curiosity, but I am not going to interpret NY law here. That is out of my realm of expertise.

  13. #73
    Forum Member Bones42's Avatar
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    If FDNY had taken care of this "inhouse", the problem may not have occurred.

    I'll hang on CR's side on this, how could anyone let it get this bad to allow a guy to pick up a chair ready to swing it, and not stop him?
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  14. #74
    MembersZone Subscriber SamsonFCDES's Avatar
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    Originally posted by GeorgeWendtCFI


    I didn't put words in anyone's mouth. I posted your words verbatim to back up my post. Following your logic, if a rape victim allows herself to be sexaully assualted, it's her fault because she didn't fight back, even if she was bigger than her assailant.

    What's par for the course for me is pointing it out when someone says something out of line...like balming the victim.
    Reality check GW, you put words in peoples mouths more then anybody else on this forum. Just like the above, you are telling everybody what I believe in regaurds to rape victim issues. That is an issue that has nothing to do with this topic, to my knowledge has never been brought up on this forum, and quite frankly if way WAY off.

    I find that very offensive, and I dont appreciate you PUTTING WORDS IN MY MOUTH!. That is exactly what you are doing, again.

    It is very hipcritical to start a paragraph with "I didn't put words in anyone's mouth." and then procede to tell the forum all about how I view rape victims.

    Like I said, that is your SOP in nearly every thread that I see you in.

    You can evedently pull what ever you want from between the lines so it realy doesnt matter what I post. I might as well just leave a blank post and let you fill it in for me, saves me the carple tunnel.

    How about I just post a link to a few pictures that sum up how I feel about rape. Hell, a picture is worth a 1000 words so I will save you some typing GW.

    http://www.a-human-right.com/RKBA/guessing_s.jpg

    http://www.a-human-right.com/RKBA/possum_s.jpg

    http://www.a-human-right.com/RKBA/twoways_s.jpg
    -Brotherhood: I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.
    -Mistakes: It could be that the purpose of you life is to serve as a warning to others.

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  15. #75
    Forum Member Bones42's Avatar
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    and what does all this have to do with a fight in a NY firehouse?
    You guys want to argue, PM each other. Leave the rest of us out of it.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  16. #76
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    You dont have to explain that to me Bones, I was staying on topic. GW decided however to tell the forum my point of view on issues completely unrelated to this topic, as you have pointed out.

    Sorry that I even acknoledged his post, but I dont like someone speaking for me and I decided to point that out.

    Sure, he could have PMed me from the start. He did not, he posted here in a public forum, putting words in my mouth.
    Last edited by SamsonFCDES; 01-05-2004 at 12:35 PM.
    -Brotherhood: I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.
    -Mistakes: It could be that the purpose of you life is to serve as a warning to others.

    -Adversity: That which does not kill me postpones the inevitable.

    -Despair: Its always darkest before it goes Pitch Black.

  17. #77
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    Originally posted by Bones42
    and what does all this have to do with a fight in a NY firehouse?
    You guys want to argue, PM each other. Leave the rest of us out of it.
    It has everything to do with blaming the victim in this case. I did not put words in anyone's mouth. It is intersting that in 2700 or so posts, I have been accused of many things, but not that.

    I also did not put words in your mouth about the rape victim thing. I have edited that post to make it clearer.

    Victims are NEVER to blame.
    Last edited by GeorgeWendtCFI; 01-05-2004 at 01:34 PM.

  18. #78
    MembersZone Subscriber SamsonFCDES's Avatar
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    Originally posted by GeorgeWendtCFI


    It has everything to do with blaming the victim in this case. I did not put words in anyone's mouth. It is intersting that in 2700 or so posts, I have been accused of many things, but not that.

    I also did not put words in your mouth about the rape victim thing. I have edited that post to make it clearer.

    Victims are NEVER to blame.
    I looked here a second ago and you were saying something to the effect that you were not going to hyjack the thread...

    A second later you edit the post and there you go again.


    -Brotherhood: I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.
    -Mistakes: It could be that the purpose of you life is to serve as a warning to others.

    -Adversity: That which does not kill me postpones the inevitable.

    -Despair: Its always darkest before it goes Pitch Black.

  19. #79
    MembersZone Subscriber SamsonFCDES's Avatar
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    From the NY Times, reprinted on Firehouse.com.

    http://cms.firehouse.com/content/art...Id=46&id=23947

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    MICHELLE O'DONNELL
    Reprinted with Permission, The New York Times


    First came the teasing: one man made a crack about another's sexual orientation. Others may have laughed. The target of the teasing responded with a taunt, a firefighter familiar with the case said, and then, in a flash, a metal chair sailed through the air, shattering bones in the teased man's face and partly severing his nose.

    In that horrifying instant last Wednesday, a verbal fight swiftly escalated into violence in a Staten Island firehouse, officials say, leaving one firefighter on a respirator in a hospital and another under arrest, his career in peril. While the details are still under investigation and more charges, against firefighters accused of covering up the incident, are possible, the fight has opened a window of sorts on New York City's firehouse culture, including certain aspects that may have combined to disastrous effect.

    Fire Commissioner Nicholas Scoppetta said last week that the fight at least partially stemmed from the close confines of firehouse living, where shared meals and sleeping quarters can lead to a boiling over of sibling-like relationships fueled by constant ribbing and full of all the tensions, personal feuds and intense competition of any family ties. To be sure, razzing is as much a part of firehouse life as communal meals and the shattering peal of alarm bells. But what set the Staten Island incident apart, surprising even longtime firefighters, was that it culminated in violence.

    Other factors may have exacerbated the tense exchange between Firefighter Robert Walsh, who was injured, and Firefighter Michael R. Silvestri, who was arrested, including alcohol and a dispute over taking advantage of colleagues, which is considered taboo, firefighters and fire officials say.

    Part of the mystique of firefighters is their seeming ability to remain forever young and daring. But as admirable as those traits can be, this youthfulness can at times translate into what the outside world might consider adolescent behavior. The endless flow of taunts can seem vicious and cruel. Those who have lived in and studied the world of firefighters — which remains overwhelmingly male — say there are good reasons why such an atmosphere is cultivated. After all, who but someone with a teenage boy's daring sense of immortality would willingly run into a burning building to save someone's life?

    "Everybody verbally abuses young firefighters," said Vincent Dunn, a retired deputy chief, who added that even longtime firefighters do not outgrow the sport of razzing. "Nobody wants physical violence — that's a no-no. But there's a lot of verbal abuse. It's like society."

    In firehouses across the city, firefighters say they use taunts to build camaraderie. The idea, firefighters say, is to find a colleague's greatest weakness and taunt him — or her — about it over and over again until it no longer wounds the person's pride. That colleague will be a stronger individual at a moment of crisis, firefighters say.

    There is, for example, the firefighter who once worked as a manager at Bloomingdale's before joining the department. His colleagues learned of his former job and, for more than a decade, the only personal pronouns they have used to refer to him have been "she" and "her."

    Another firefighter, teased by his colleagues about having a small skull, once found a photo of his head nestled in a pea pod on the label of a can of peas. And a short firefighter was given a child's oxford shirt when he passed the lieutenant's test.

    "One thing in the firehouse is that they love anyone who has the ability to make them laugh," said Mr. Dunn. That person is held in high esteem in the firehouse, he said.

    A firefighter at a firehouse in Astoria, Queens, yesterday explained it this way: "To be picked on is to be liked. It's like being out with friends. You have to be a sport about it. If you can't take it, don't give the heat."

    A firefighter familiar with the Staten Island fight said that Firefighter Silvestri was known to call Firefighter Walsh by homosexual slurs, as he allegedly did last Wednesday evening. Using taunts to emphasize seniority could have been a factor, the firefighter said. Firefighter Silvestri, 41, had 15 years with the department, while Firefighter Walsh, 40, had just 8.

    "It's just a way of ranking each other," the firefighter said, speaking on the condition of anonymity because of the investigation. "It's just one more way to get at one another."

    To defend himself, the firefighter said, Firefighter Walsh mentioned that Firefighter Silvestri had arranged for a junior firefighter to work his regular shift on Thanksgiving Day, then came in to work on overtime pay. According to the firefighter, Firefighter Walsh had mentioned that subject more than a few times since Thanksgiving. Alleging that a firefighter is taking advantage of his colleagues in making the system work to his own benefit is a sore subject in any firehouse, and the firefighter said that Firefighter Walsh's references to this galled Firefighter Silvestri.

    In firehouse culture, people who work the system to their advantage are all too familiar, just as any family knows who it is that never washes the dishes or carries out the trash. (Firefighters even have a name for these types: "square-rooters.")

    Usually, these disputes are resolved without violence. "If a guy comes in and he doesn't do the right thing, that's where some of the needling comes in," said a firefighter in Jackson Heights, Queens. "Hopefully, he'll get the idea and set things right."

    "If you got a problem, all you need to do is mention it at the dinner table," the Jackson Heights firefighter said, a reference to the large kitchen table where anywhere from 6 to 20 firefighters take their three meals a day. "You get all the advice you need. It's firehouse therapy."

    Officials are investigating whether alcohol played a role in the fight. A blood sample taken from Firefighter Walsh that night at Staten Island University Hospital revealed trace amounts of alcohol, but it has not been determined when the alcohol was consumed; one fire official said it could have been consumed even a day earlier. No other firefighters were tested for alcohol, and when senior members of the department and police arrived at the firehouse, after midnight, there was no evidence of drinking, officials said.

    For a 138-year-old department, the prohibition against drinking came relatively recently. Drinking in some firehouses was common before 1970, Mr. Dunn said. It began to drop off as firefighters moved to the suburbs in the late 1960's, Mr. Dunn said, and drives home demanded sobriety. Shortly after the autopsy of a Bronx firefighter who fell off a fire engine in 1969 showed evidence of alcohol in his blood, Mr. Dunn said, the department banned alcohol from firehouses and prohibited firefighters from drinking while on duty.

    Yesterday, the Staten Island district attorney, Daniel M. Donovan Jr., was sworn in to office, hours after discussing the case by phone with Police Commissioner Raymond Kelly. Both officials said that the investigation was continuing, and that it remained to be seen whether other firefighters accused of participating in a cover-up of the incident would face criminal charges. One fire official has said it was likely that other firefighters who were present would face administrative charges.

    Janon Fisher and Jason George contributed reporting for this article.
    Last edited by SamsonFCDES; 01-05-2004 at 02:41 PM.
    -Brotherhood: I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.
    -Mistakes: It could be that the purpose of you life is to serve as a warning to others.

    -Adversity: That which does not kill me postpones the inevitable.

    -Despair: Its always darkest before it goes Pitch Black.

  20. #80
    MembersZone Subscriber mcaldwell's Avatar
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    Ding!

    To your corners boys.

    I wonder how the author of this follow-up article would describe your behavior?

    http://cms.firehouse.com/content/art...Id=46&id=23947

    Now this article is clearly conjecture and cannot possibly claim to answer the cause of the incident at this early date, but the arguements it makes regarding the culture of firehouses and the horseplay and teasing that goes on is probably not far from the truth. It is a brotherhood in every form, and sometimes that results in "sibling" spats. This one was taken much farther than normal, so I think the ultimate question is going to be if, and how, we must prevent this in the future.
    Never argue with an Idiot. They drag you down to their level, and then beat you with experience!

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