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  1. #81
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    Thanks to Samson for posting that article. It is thought provoking.

    Is it a common experience for FF to be more prone to bickering and fighting in a slow house? OR in a busy house during a slow time? I have found it to be true in my experience.


  2. #82
    MembersZone Subscriber SamsonFCDES's Avatar
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    Originally posted by GeorgeWendtCFI
    Thanks to Samson for posting that article. It is thought provoking.

    Is it a common experience for FF to be more prone to bickering and fighting in a slow house? OR in a busy house during a slow time? I have found it to be true in my experience.
    Perhaps that explains our interaction!

    Alchohol

    Assault

    Homophobia

    Sexual Harrasment

    Fill in the rest for me, would you GW?




    -Brotherhood: I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.
    -Mistakes: It could be that the purpose of you life is to serve as a warning to others.

    -Adversity: That which does not kill me postpones the inevitable.

    -Despair: Its always darkest before it goes Pitch Black.

  3. #83
    MembersZone Subscriber SamsonFCDES's Avatar
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    Originally posted by mcaldwell
    Ding!

    To your corners boys.

    I wonder how the author of this follow-up article would describe your behavior?

    HAH!!!

    I was faster, I posted first!!!

    You may be onto something there.

    Slowpoke.

    -Brotherhood: I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.
    -Mistakes: It could be that the purpose of you life is to serve as a warning to others.

    -Adversity: That which does not kill me postpones the inevitable.

    -Despair: Its always darkest before it goes Pitch Black.

  4. #84
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    FFFred and MattyJ:
    You need to get on the phone to Vincent Dunn (you DO know Vincent Dunn, don't you?) and chastise him for speculating on the causes for this violent firehouse incident.
    It can't be any of his business. After all, he is a highly decorated and highly respected FDNY retiree. He wasn't there, so it's none of his business, right?
    And if you're keeping track, there have been no less than FIVE articles written about this incident to date.
    Oh and the DA is speculating that others will be charged. He hasn't got all of the facts, so he shouldn't even be commenting about it. DAs can be such busy bodies. Like a bunch of old ladies at a Sunday brunch, I swear.
    Please let me know when we have your permission to discuss this. Seriously; I'd like to know. I want to weigh in on a couple of points that have been made.
    CR
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  5. #85
    Forum Member DeputyChiefGonzo's Avatar
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    Default It can happen in our stations....

    While FDNY members are getting a little upset that we are discussing something that happened in Engine 151's house, there is the potential for it in every firehouse in the country, both career and call/volunteer.

    We tend to sit back and play "spectator" when two jakes have a beef with each other. There is a lot of good natured ribbing that goes on, but sometimes it crosses the line to become an argument.... and on occasion these arguments escalate into a potential for violence...andit's up to us to intervene and stop it before our brothers and sisters get hurt and have careers destroyed over "stupid things".


    I have had to play "referee" a few times in my career...not fun at all!
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

  6. #86
    Forum Member Bones42's Avatar
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    Well said Gonzo. It happened in one firehouse and was made public, it can happen anywhere.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  7. #87
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    Question What if?

    What if this had been a WWYD type thread? Would everyone be bashing each other when they should be concentrating on what could be learned or working together to bash mutts. I would not begin to pre-judge this situation from Michigan except to say that in my 31 years in the fire service I always relied on something that was stressed in my Army infantry officer candidate school:

    "An officer is responsible for everything his men do or fail to do."

    Sorry ladies but it was the 1960's.

    Let's everyone take a deep breath, stop the bashing and let the investigation go forward. Dirty linen is dirty linen and needs to be put forth for improvement in the future but jumping to conclusions will not help the cause. Obviously something went wrong but I don't have clue as to what until FDNY, police, DA, etc. complete their investigation.

    We should look at these things as challenges not problems.

    Stay safe,

    Pete
    Pete Sinclair
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    IACOJ (Retired Division)

  8. #88
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    In firehouses across the city, firefighters say they use taunts to build camaraderie. The idea, firefighters say, is to find a colleague's greatest weakness and taunt him ó or her ó about it over and over again until it no longer wounds the person's pride. That colleague will be a stronger individual at a moment of crisis, firefighters say.
    Interesting concept.....I was always under the impression that was called bullying

  9. #89
    Forum Member MIKEYLIKESIT's Avatar
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    I would imagine if everyone involved could do things differently in this unfortunate incident,they would have . Work place violence is never acceptable. Ribbing and ball busting IS a natural part of firehouse life. It HAS changed over the years and I find I do less and less goofing around then in years past. Like drinking in the firehouse (which like it or not WAS acceptable at one time) the days of wholesale practical jokes and other hi jinxs are going the way of riding standing up and 3/4 boots. I dont know how many of you have spent any amount of time in an URBAN firehouse. I was exposed to it fairly young and it was like entering a different dimension. I spent time in a firehouse that had no couch or even soft chairs. The Captain of the house said "soft chairs make soft men"... I can see exactly how this would happen and also can almost feel the remorse from EVERYONE involved...Even though I DONT know what exactly happend or the players involved, but the victim appears to have tried to cover for his attacker...That shows that even when you cant stand someone at the firehouse, you will try and protect them when the chips are down..At least thats the way it used to be. It is a real shame this happend and lets be thankful there isnt more of it. How many of you out there in cyberland ever took a swing at or had to get in the middle of a fight? I bet more then will admit it...

  10. #90
    MembersZone Subscriber SamsonFCDES's Avatar
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    Originally posted by LadyCapn


    Interesting concept.....I was always under the impression that was called bullying
    In my opinion it is.
    -Brotherhood: I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.
    -Mistakes: It could be that the purpose of you life is to serve as a warning to others.

    -Adversity: That which does not kill me postpones the inevitable.

    -Despair: Its always darkest before it goes Pitch Black.

  11. #91
    MembersZone Subscriber SamsonFCDES's Avatar
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    Originally posted by MIKEYLIKESIT
    How many of you out there in cyberland ever took a swing at or had to get in the middle of a fight? I bet more then will admit it...
    Do you mean a fire department related fight?

    In any case, yes, I have been sucker punched trying break up a fight that was fire department related. I have also been in more then my fair share of fights that were non department related.

    If I have learned one thing after all of that it is...

    Fighting sucks.

    Sparing and such can be fun and good exercise, but a real fight, that just sucks.

    You mentioned Urban departments in your post, but I think this stuff happens everywhere. It happened in my rural department which is far FAR from urban in every sence. Nobody was swinging improvised weapons and only feelings where realy hurt, but it was a fire department fight none the less.

    Ribbing, hazeing, bullying, what ever you want to call it. I dont buy into the claim that it builds charactger, courage, and comrodery.

    I have seen its truely ugly side.
    -Brotherhood: I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.
    -Mistakes: It could be that the purpose of you life is to serve as a warning to others.

    -Adversity: That which does not kill me postpones the inevitable.

    -Despair: Its always darkest before it goes Pitch Black.

  12. #92
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    I'll ask you a question, If this had occured at a public works garage or any other place of work do you think it would have made the paper as an article on the 5th page...let alone the entire front page spread?
    Ok Fred, I will answer your question. (despite the fact you chose not to answer mine)

    Of course it would not have been as big a story if it happened at another place of work.
    I get tired of hearing complaints that "the media just wants to sell papers."

    Of course they do. That is why they print the damn things.

    You see, street sweepers, delivery truck drivers, garbage haulers, etc. do not have the same public image firefighters do. Does the press put street sweepers on the front page when they do agreat job cleaning the streets? Of course not. Do firefighters get the front page when rescues are made etc? You bet.

    We can't have it both ways.

    You don't want this stuff in the papers? Don't buy the papers. If the public didn't want to read it, it wouldn't be in there.
    "We shouldn't be opening firehouses in Baghdad and closing them in New York City."

    IACOJ

  13. #93
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    Hello,

    If anyone is interested there is a number of televison clips available for watching at www.ny1.com

    The televison news is saying that these two fireman could be in more trouble because they both work in New York but live in New Jersey. The news is saying this is a violation of State and city laws.

    Thanks,

  14. #94
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    JANUARY 05TH, 2004

    Six Staten Island firefighters, including a captain, were reassigned to desk duty Monday in connection with the New Yearís Eve fight inside a firehouse that left one firefighter in a coma.

    Fire Commissioner Nicholas Scoppetta announced today that the firefighters are reassigned pending the outcome of the investigation.

    The reassigned firefighters are Captain Terrance Sweeney, Lieutenant Raymond Kane and Firefighter Joseph Spitalieri of Ladder 76, Lieutenant Daniel Kenny and Firefighter David Johnsen of Engine 151, and Lieutenant Gregory McFarland of Battalion 32.

    Firefighter Robert Walsh remains in a medically-induced coma with facial fractures. Police say Michael Silvestri hit Walsh in the face with a metal chair at Engine Company 151 in Tottenville last Wednesday.

    Fire officials want to know what sparked the violence, and whether anyone in the firehouse tried to cover up circumstances surrounding the fight.

    According to published reports, Captain Terrence Sweeney told doctors that Walsh fell down the stairs and wrote that in the firehouse logbook. The fight was also not reported to police for nearly nine hours, reportedly giving firefighters time to clean up.

    Scoppetta says four different agencies are investigating the fight, but he says the Department of Investigation is taking the lead.

    The FDNY is also investigating whether both Walsh and Silvestri violated department residency rules by living in New Jersey.

    Silvestri has been arrested and charged with assault, and remains free on bail. He has also been suspended without pay.



    Wow......... I tried to watch the video, but I was having some issues with my connection, so it wasn't very smooth. I did however see a picture in there of Walsh......... I can say nothing but, WOW. I hope you get better, brother.........

  15. #95
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    Originally posted by caffder
    Hello,

    If anyone is interested there is a number of televison clips available for watching at www.ny1.com

    The televison news is saying that these two fireman could be in more trouble because they both work in New York but live in New Jersey. The news is saying this is a violation of State and city laws.

    Thanks,
    This is a HUGE pandora's box that affects not only FDNY but NYPD as well.

  16. #96
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    You know what Cheif Reason, the difference between Dunn and you (and Im sure not the only difference) is he actually worked in the FDNY. You sure do have one sarcastic and condesending attitude. I dont know who you are (and dont really care) but you've got one hell of a sarcastic and condesending attitude. Go ahead and continue to speculate, repeat the news media ( we all know they're so acurate ), and give us your opinion from wherever you are, but Im done with this and you.

  17. #97
    MembersZone Subscriber ChiefReason's Avatar
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    MattyJ wrote:
    You sure do have one sarcastic and condesending attitude. I dont know who you are (and dont really care) but you've got one hell of a sarcastic and condesending attitude.
    That's part of my charm.
    Look; you came into this thread and told fellow firefighters that they were wrong for discussing a very serious incident and that it was none of their business and you didn't expect someone to respond to that? You want to squelch the free exchange of ideas, but yet, you are offended by sarcasm? Excuse my sarcasm, but that's funny.
    Because I am offended by those who believe in quelling freedom of speech. And I am amazed at how you and others derail the press as liars and fabricators of news when you don't like what you read, but will cut out an article favorable to the cause and add it to a scrapbook.
    Sorry you don't like me, but it never would have worked. I won't discourage you or encourage you to express your thoughts. That's your decision.
    And for the record, I wasn't condescending. Sarcastic; yes. Condescending; nope. I respect everyone's opinion, even if I don't agree with them.
    Stay safe.
    CR
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    Remember Bradley Golden (9/25/01)
    RIP HOF Robert J. Compton(ENG6511)

  18. #98
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    Yes, people, please don't speculate there was violence in a FDNY house, don't speculate a guy got hit in the face with a chair, don't speculate that 6 guys are on temporary desk duty, none of it's true. A guy fell down the stairs and 6 others are on vacation.



    On a serious note - about the residency thing...is that checked on at all by the department or only at time of hiring and then it's an honor system? Just curious.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  19. #99
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    Default Re: It can happen in our stations....

    Originally posted by CaptainGonzo

    I have had to play "referee" a few times in my career...not fun at all!
    Forgive me for backing up on this thread, but I think CaptainGonzo really got to the heart of the matter here. The reason we didn't read about the incidents in his firehouse is that he DID step in and play referee.

    Based only on the information that is available to date, it would seem that much blame can also be laid on the officers. There were probably several stages at which this incident could have been defused:

    1: Many days/weeks/months ago by setting the tone for when "chop-busting" and "good natured ribbing" crossed the line to harassment/bullying.

    2: Before the chair was swung (Realistically this might not be possible, depending on how things actually went down."

    3: After the damage was done, but before the "cover-up". Had an officer or officers said "The buck stops here" there would be one, maybe two ruined careers instead of potentially eight or more.

    I hope firefighter Walsh recovers quickly.
    ullrichk
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  20. #100
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    Hello

    "NEW YORK TIMES: A Firehouse Culture Where Taunts and Teasing Flourish"

    Are these fire fighters out of there minds? They are asking for law suits? We live in a different world. If they are still doing that; they are either still kids or living in the past. I did read somewhere that there is only one women fire fighter in the NYFD. Does anyone have any insite to there culture? The NYFD Culture. Because, I think it is different than the rest of the USA. Where I am located we have about 15% women fire fighters and our Chief is a woman. I point that out because sexual harrasment law suits in this state are very common. I think where I am; fire fighters are better listers than talkers. How can anyone have any respect for any firefighter or anyone that talks trash???? I would like to hear anyones insite to the NYFD. Is this culture?????

    Thanks,
    Last edited by caffder; 01-08-2004 at 08:29 PM.

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