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  1. #1
    Forum Member stm4710's Avatar
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    Arrow Explorer rights vs. privlages.

    This is a thread on FOTF forum that I will throw in here.

    What do you as an explorer,adviseor,firefighter think should be basic explorer rights and what do you consider privlages given to explorers?
    Talk about Rights vs. Privlages in the following areas:
    Training,education,responding, field trips,shirts and hats,curfews,ff1/2 certs,Responding with lights and povs( not what kind but should you?),websites, id's ie badges,attending department functions and working on the fire ground. (If you havent done something listed above, give your opinion if you did.)
    What kind of return do you think explorers,adviseors,firefighte rs get on there time/$$ money investment.

    Post your honest opinion!

    stm
    I dont suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.


  2. #2
    Forum Member WFDjr1's Avatar
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    All of the things you mentioned, I would consider as priviledges. There is really no necessity for an Explorer program as there is towards the fire department itself. The department could survive without them, and lots of departments in the program are waiting for one guy to do something incredibly stupid and ruin it for everyone, and the program is history. Yes, Juniors and Explorers save a lot of time by changing bottles and such, but they aren't needed, as these tasks can be completed by the firefighters. Being a Junior/Explorer is kinda like driving; a priviledge, not a right. Don't think I'm against them or whatever, because I was one in the very recent past. It's a great opportunity to get a head start and the training for the best job in the world.
    These are my opinions, not those of my career department, my volunteer company, or my affiliates. And by the way, I'm not a Junior.

    Buy me a drink, sing me a song, take me as I come 'cause I can't stay long.

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  3. #3
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    i am an explorer right now. i know it is a privlage to be on the dept. at such a young age. we can do just about every thing a ff can except we can't have direct pt care and we can't fight a structure fire from the inside. we have had our right of getting pagers taken away, beacuse wen our post first started in the 80's one kid took his pager to school, it went off. and from then on we couldn't have pagers.

    i see the explorer program as a learning experience. it is a way to get a step ahead of the other people who want to become ff's. our explorers that have gone on to become ff's have passed it the tops of their classes. so it is just a learning expierence.
    IF YOU FOLLOW ALL OF THE RULES YOU MISS ALL OF THE FUN.

    Moose (Post 2028 Vice President/ Command Officer)Explorer Highland Twp. Fire/Rescue Dept.

    Any Questions Contact Me At Moose20282@yahoo.com

    These Are My Opinions, Not that of My Dept. or Any other Orgnazition I Belong to.

  4. #4
    Forum Member nmfire's Avatar
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    Default Re: Explorer rights vs. privlages.

    Our explorers are allowed and encouraged to attend pretty much all senior company drills and training activities. They can participate in the activities to the extent that they are allowed by dept and state laws (Not being on air in a burning structure, or on a ladder above 7ft, etc)

    Explorers can take outside training classes that don't have pre-requisits for FF1, age, etc. Firefighter I is not a class we send explorers to unless they are just about to be joining the senior company and a FFI class happens to be starting at the time.

    Explorers are allowed and encouraged to attend any of the non-drill activities such as public service event, clean-ups, work parties, open house, etc.

    Explorers are allowed to go on calls with the following restrictions:

    1. Must respond to the FH, not directly to the scene with a POV. Can ride an apparatus to the scene, or an adults POV if all the trucks are gone (rare).

    2. Can go directly to the scene of an EMS call only if a senior members is already there, otherwise, same as #1.

    3. Can not respond after 10:00pm on school nights. Any other time or day is open game.

    4. Not allowed to be "on air". You can where the pack and mask for training but you can not be on the air. This is not our rule, it is State Law.

    5. Now allowed in a structure during firefighting operations. Duh, you would need an airpack. Once the fire is knocked down and the air is cleared out, they can assist with overhaul.

    6. The can assist with more or less any exterior operations as long as it doesn't require being on air or on a ladder over 7ft high.

    7. Not allowed to operate the hust tools at an MVA

    8. No warning lights, hazzard lights, sirens, etc.

    Explorers are allowed to wear "apparel" with the dept name and logo. The post will buy t-shirts, anything else is on their own.

    Explorers are allowed to organize "extra-curricular" activities that have nothing to do with firefighting (ie- field trips, camp outs, etc). Haven't done this yet, but it can be done. Requires two adults like any other activity.

    Explorers all have uniforms for formal functions and a "badge" is part of that uniform. It is not a badge for any other purpose including being carried in your wallet.

    Explorers are all issued accountablity ID cards like all other firefighters. They are kept on the gear and do get used.

    Explorers are all issused a pager once they complete the training requirments to respond to calls.


    One thing I stress to all our new members when they join:

    You have t-shirts that advitise who you are. You have these little plates for your car that advirtise who you are. You wear a pager that advertises who you are. Please do not act or drive in such a way that you would not want people to know who you are... because they will and reflects back on the whole department. So far, it is more or less working.
    Last edited by nmfire; 01-02-2004 at 02:14 PM.
    Even the burger-flippers at McDonald's probably have some McWackers.

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Re: Explorer rights vs. privlages.

    Originally posted by nmfire

    4. Not allowed to be "on air". You can where the pack and mask for training but you can not be on the air. This is not our rule, it is State Law.

    6. The can assist with more or less any exterior operations as long as it doesn't require being on air or on a ladder over 7ft high.
    rule number 4. i don't under stand why it is the state law that explorers can not be on air not even for tranning. i can under stand on the fire scene.

    rule number 6. our maxium height on a ground ladder is 35 feet. aerial trucks are different we can go as high as they go.

    can you go up in an aeral truck?
    IF YOU FOLLOW ALL OF THE RULES YOU MISS ALL OF THE FUN.

    Moose (Post 2028 Vice President/ Command Officer)Explorer Highland Twp. Fire/Rescue Dept.

    Any Questions Contact Me At Moose20282@yahoo.com

    These Are My Opinions, Not that of My Dept. or Any other Orgnazition I Belong to.

  6. #6
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    Default rights vs privileges

    This is a touchy topic because everyone has a different perspective.

    Seems to me the only rights EVERYONE in the fire service has are:
    1. To be treated with respect as far as they've earned it
    2. A workplace free of discrimination/harrassment/violence
    3. Recognizing the fire service is inherently dangerous, a conscious effort by ICs to ensure safety.

    I think #1 applies most to Jr Firefighters/Explorers. I'm fairly new in the fire service but am older than most newbies are. I'm 30 and joined my local department in August 2003. There are juniors who have been around longer than I have and I'll treat them with the respect they deserve.

    If they jerk around at the station house or generally make an *** of themselves, then they don't have the necessary maturity to be treated as a full-fledged FF. On the other hand, if they carry themselves with the demeanor of what I would expect from an upstanding JrFF, then I'll treat them a heckuva lot better.

    In other words, a Jr. Firefighter who doesn't even wait for me to say, "hey, get over here and help me with this.." gets VERY high marks in my book. A guy who would rather try and pass himself off as "one of the guys" and spends more time 'joking' with the FFs (while the FFs roll their eyes and make overly obvious hints this guy should get lost) displays the maturity of a 5th grader and should be treated as such.

    #1 is also the big reason why JrFF/Explorer posts are disbanded. Even if one member causes problems, it reflects badly on the whole post.

  7. #7
    Forum Member Bones42's Avatar
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    Everyone has the "right" to earn the "privilege" of being a Firefighter.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  8. #8
    Forum Member explr985's Avatar
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    Default Ladders

    We can only climb to 35 feet on a ladder, we can climb the aerials during traning. Also on a fireground, we cannot climb operate off a aerial. We have one tower ladder, as for us operating off of it, I'll need to check. Our post is very similar to what nm posted, other than it is a fully paid department so if we wish to run calls, we must be assinged to a particular station for a shift.
    No longer an explorer, but I didn't wanna lose my posts.

    IACOJ 2003

  9. #9
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    Just remember, your not firefighters yet, you are Jr. Firefighters or Explorers. I went through the explorers and it was a great experience. I probably wouldnít be a firefighter if I didnít get into the explorer program.

    With that said, there should be limitations for explorers.

    -I donít see any problem with explorers putting on air packs, and going on air for training.

    -At fire scenes, they donít actually get to go inside. The only time they get to go inside of a structure that as burned is after all operations have been completed. The Chief and safety officer have to clear the building to make sure itís somewhat safe. We all know that no fire ground is completely safe. This way the explorers can see first hand what fire does to an inside of a structure.

    -I feel explorers donít need blue lights or sirens on their private vehicles.

    -As for aerial ladders. On a ladder truck, I wouldnít allow an explorer to climb up the ladder when itís fully extended and strait up, but I would allow them to walk out at less of an angle, but with a firefighter that has been trained on the ladder. I would even let the explorer get behind the stick and operate the ladder. With close supervision of course though.

    -I donít think explorers should be allowed to ride on the apparatus to a call. Some deptís allow that, and thatís fine, I just donít feel itís a safe practice to do. Itís not like you are going to be able to pack up and save someoneís life.


    -As for MVA type calls, I cant really say much on because our dept doesnít allow explorers to go to the scenes, however they are allowed to the station.

    These are just my thoughts, and opinions, the explorer program is a great program to have in the department. The explorers are very helpful on the fire ground. Every dept should look into having one.

    I leave this with this endingÖ..
    Ö.Your time will come; you will get into the fire dept, get the training, and be inside fighting the fire in no time. Just think positive, and remember that.

  10. #10
    Forum Member nmfire's Avatar
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    Default Re: Re: Re: Explorer rights vs. privlages.

    Originally posted by Moose2028


    rule number 4. i don't under stand why it is the state law that explorers can not be on air not even for tranning. i can under stand on the fire scene.

    rule number 6. our maxium height on a ground ladder is 35 feet. aerial trucks are different we can go as high as they go.

    can you go up in an aeral truck?
    The airpack thing is an OSHA regulation and CT is OSHA state. It is their workplace safety regulations. Any state that adopts OSHA standards has this rule. I really can't tell you want the logic behind it is. All I know is that is the rule and we follow it.

    I believe the ladder height rule is a Boy Scout rule but I could be wrong. We allow them up that high on ground ladders. As for a ladder truck, we don't have one anyway. They have one downtown but our explorers would never have a reason to beon their truck. Our rules to do not specificly address being on a ladder truck. if your climbing the ladder, it shouldn't be any different. If you're in a bucket from the ground up, I can see some lee-way there since you really aren't climbing anything and there is no ladder. OSHA may have something to say about that though.
    Even the burger-flippers at McDonald's probably have some McWackers.

  11. #11
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    Default Re: Re: Re: Re: Explorer rights vs. privlages.

    Originally posted by nmfire


    The airpack thing is an OSHA regulation and CT is OSHA state. It is their workplace safety regulations. Any state that adopts OSHA standards has this rule. I really can't tell you want the logic behind it is. All I know is that is the rule and we follow it.

    I believe the ladder height rule is a Boy Scout rule but I could be wrong. We allow them up that high on ground ladders. As for a ladder truck, we don't have one anyway. They have one downtown but our explorers would never have a reason to beon their truck. Our rules to do not specificly address being on a ladder truck. if your climbing the ladder, it shouldn't be any different. If you're in a bucket from the ground up, I can see some lee-way there since you really aren't climbing anything and there is no ladder. OSHA may have something to say about that though.


    A lot of the rules preventing explorers from doing stuff are from the scouts. The Scouts get taught how to start fires, yet our explorers can't be fully trained in fighting fire.

  12. #12
    expvol
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    For our post, we are alloud to ride-out after we complete the req training or show that we know all the items in the training.

    We basicaly go through a basic FF-1 training.

    When we ride-out we can ride from 0800-2200
    We are usualy assigned to either a engine, quint, rescue, or truck.
    There are 5 stations avalible to ride out of in my post
    We assist with all of the station daily duties, from cleaing the kitchen to the apparatus daily check.
    We sometimes can jump truck (ride out all units) in a station when one of the FF's is on leave.
    When on call we are basicaly the gophers, we get things from the trucks, clean things, change air bottles, help with hose deployment, catching a hydrant, operate a exterior hand line, operate the roof gun. It seems like we get to do alot, we do but it comes at a price, hundreds of hours of training and countless tests and reviews. We earn everything that we do.
    For mva's we usualy are involved in helping clear the area, traffic direction, (if PD is not on scene), assist on an extrication (basicaly hold things, one of the biggest things that I do is I am allways looking in both directions, looking for cars that might hit us, Kind of a "perimeter protector"
    The only way that we can go into the interior is for basic overhaul or to help drag stuff out.
    We gear up fully, and pack up on every fire call, we sometimes dont use the air, but we sometimes do.
    On small car fires or dumpster fires we can go lead on the nozzle (after about 3 years of riding out, 3 years of hard work)
    I think that every department should give the explorers/jr's a chance to learn and a chance to show them that they know what they are doing. We have a strike system, 1 bad move and were suspended from the stations, only able to attend meetings. There were guys that hated explorers, but working our arses off paid off, they now respect us. We earned it all, nothing except for the gear and training oppertunities were given to us.

  13. #13
    Forum Member backdraft663's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Bones42
    Everyone has the "right" to earn the "privilege" of being a Firefighter.

    Couldnt of said it better Bones!
    Ryan

    I.A.C.O.J. Probie

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    Lets not forget those lost on 9-11-01

  14. #14
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    A lot of the rules preventing explorers from doing stuff are from the scouts. The Scouts get taught how to start fires, yet our explorers can't be fully trained in fighting fire.
    The Scouts really can't determine what Explorers can do. The post that I am part of was requested to wear Scout uniforms while on calls, at the station, etc. The department regulations in some/most cases can override the Scouts rules as long as it follows State, Federal, and City/Town regulations.

    Just my two 'cents'!

  15. #15
    Forum Member nmfire's Avatar
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    Originally posted by 42VTExplorer


    The Scouts really can't determine what Explorers can do. The post that I am part of was requested to wear Scout uniforms while on calls, at the station, etc. The department regulations in some/most cases can override the Scouts rules as long as it follows State, Federal, and City/Town regulations.

    Just my two 'cents'!

    Ah, no. Doesn't work like that. They can't tell you to wear a uniform to calls. That might be some local scouting big cheese making up his own rules to feel important. It isn't the case.

    The established national BSA rules are not for your dept to pick and choose. If you are part of that organization and want to make use of the benefits of such (insurance being the big one), you follow their rules and let the state, local, and dept rules fill in the blanks. If you don't want to adhere to them, you better start looking for insurance coverage from the municipality and call yourselves Juniors instead.
    Even the burger-flippers at McDonald's probably have some McWackers.

  16. #16
    District Chief distchief60b's Avatar
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    No...local jurisdictions can not override scouting rules. I also started as a Junior in 1971. Rules and regulations have not changed. The restriction from climbing, SCBA use, Power Tools etc., are diretly related the the FEDERAL Child Labor Laws that prohibit Minors under the age of 16 from engaging in "hazardous occupations" (and the labor law does not exclude volunteering...before your ask). After the age of 16 minors can train to engage in hazardous occupations (firefighting) and can actively engage in these activities after they received training if they are between the ages of 16 and 18.

    The things you are "allowed" to do as an explorer are not "rights" They are priveledges that are extended to you. They are designed to keep your interest and serve as a "reward" (so to speak) for your interest, hard work and participation. These priveledges however, come with rules that you must follow and those rules are set forth by the Authority Having Jurisdiction or the BSA in the case of Explorer Programs and must be adhered to in an effort to protect the program. One of the biggest things that I feel should be strictly adhered to is your school GPA (an in my "opinion" it should be maintained at least 3.0) and the other is the requirement that you attend all required training to be active. Additionally, there are other functions that serve as support for your organization and there should be an attendance requirement for those also.
    09-11 .. 343 "All Gave Some..Some Gave ALL" God Bless..R.I.P.
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    IACOJ Minister of Southern Comfort
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    The comments, opinions, and positions expressed here are mine. They are expressed respectfully, in the spirit of safety and progress. They do not reflect the opinions or positions of my employer or my department.

  17. #17
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    If you are part of that organization and want to make use of the benefits of such (insurance being the big one), you follow their rules and let the state, local, and dept rules fill in the blanks.

    I think some confusion on my part came into play because Vermont does not have anyone to represent the Explorers, and as far as the BSA is concerned, we are not charted. The Vermont BSA Council takes the $200 or so dollars for charter and never actually charters us.

  18. #18
    Forum Member nmfire's Avatar
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    Originally posted by 42VTExplorer



    I think some confusion on my part came into play because Vermont does not have anyone to represent the Explorers, and as far as the BSA is concerned, we are not charted. The Vermont BSA Council takes the $200 or so dollars for charter and never actually charters us.

    What? That makes no sense. Your saying they don't have anyone to represent the explorers and your not chartered. Then you say your paying the council for the charter which means there IS someone. What do you mean "they never actually charter us."
    Even the burger-flippers at McDonald's probably have some McWackers.

  19. #19
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    They asked us to re-charter with them one year and they produced the valid paperwork to the advisors. For the passed two years we have been asked to recharter but have never gotten any of the paperwork, and have fallen under the town's control and insurance.

    To clear up who "they" are, the person that asked us for money does not directly represent the Explorers in the state. Letters have been written to the national councils about this and it will hopefully be changed or fixed soon.

  20. #20
    Forum Member nmfire's Avatar
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    Well, not recieving the charter doesn't mean you aren't chartered. Did anyone ever call the council and say "we never got our chater in the mail, is it all set?"

    At least your covered under the town. Believe me, your not alone. The council here is not known for it's organizational skills either.
    Even the burger-flippers at McDonald's probably have some McWackers.

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