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  1. #181
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    NEW YORK — The September 11 museum is taking shape 70 feet below ground, a cavernous space that provides an emotionally raw journey and ends at bedrock where huge surviving remnants and spacial voids reveal the scale of the devastation of what once was the World Trade Center.
    The museum's architects, director and two victims' family members led members of the news media Tuesday on a tour of the subterranean space, which commemorates nearly 3,000 people who died in the 1993 and 2001 terrorist attacks. There are no display cabinets yet, no exhibits. It is still a construction site. But it was easy to visualize the intent of the spaces, clearly articulated by the acute voids created by the fallen towers. Authentic structural elements that survived the terrorist attacks are there: the slurry wall that kept the Hudson River from inundating the Financial District, the last column of trade center steel ceremonially removed from the site in 2002; the survivors' staircase that served as an escape route for hundreds; and foundational box columns that anchored the building. The slurry wall, still in place and measuring 60 feet by 60 feet, and the other huge artifacts define the museum's design. The $45 million museum occupies about 120,000 square feet beneath the 8-acre memorial plaza, the centerpiece of which is "Reflecting Absence," two square reflecting pools set above the footprints of the north and south towers. If the museum were above ground, said architect Steven Davis, a partner at Davis Brody Bond Aedas, "you'd be saying 'wow, how cool.' But because it's underground ... the progress is less than evident." Wearing hardhats and protective eye gear, the media reached bedrock level — where the main exhibition spaces will be located — along temporary wooden stairs and a freight elevator. The din of construction equipment was deafening at times. When the museum opens in 2012, the tour will start at an above-ground glass pavilion, where a 665-foot long "ribbon," or gently sloped ramp, will carry visitors through the site. The ribbon — reminiscent of the ramp that workers used to build the original towers and during the recovery efforts following the attacks — will wind down 45 feet to the Memorial Hall, or lobby, past a three-pronged trident column recovered from the trade center rubble. The memory of the twin towers is triggered from different areas of the museum by the depth of the memorial pools in the cavernous site. The pools will be clad in a recycled aluminum material similar to that used in the original towers. Special lighting will make them appear to be floating over the space. "They exist in true reference to their place and their position on the site so you can see immediately the relationship of the placement of the memorial pools with the actual location of the tower footprint itself," Davis said. "This is something we thought was very important, this spatial accuracy." Parapets of varying heights along the ramp will reveal different parts of the museum as visitors go down. Museum architect Mark Wagner said the ramp is not intended to be a bold architectural statement, but rather an access path that allows the events of 9/11 to unfold. On Tuesday, it was still covered in rough concrete. The surface will be dark wood, while the underside will be muted, finished in dark, raw metal. Stairs or an escalator will provide the final 25-foot descent to bedrock, and to a trapezoidal expanse containing the 60-foot high slurry wall that held back the Hudson. "You begin to understand that the slurry wall is the separation between the basement of the original trade center" and the river, Davis said. The last standing 36-foot steel column that was removed from the trade center debris at the end of the nine-month recovery effort in 2002 stands in front of the slurry wall. It became a spontaneous memorial to the victims; construction workers and family members covered it with tributes, photographs and inscriptions. On Tuesday, it was sheathed in a climate-controlled covering. The tower's foundational steel box columns are exposed at bedrock in the floor slabs, providing an outline of the buildings. The federal government said the column bases and slurry wall should remain in place. The final descent runs parallel to the Vesey Street stairs, known as the survivors' staircase, encased in wooden scaffolding on Tuesday. The 37 steps served as an escape route for people fleeing. It stood for years as the last remaining above-ground remnant of the original complex. There are also several places where visitors can stand between the remnants of the two towers. Thousands of unidentified remains of 9/11 victims will be stored in the museum, in an area reserved for the medical examiner's office; an adjacent room will be set aside for family members. These areas will be off limits to the public. A quotation from Virgil's Aeneid, "No Day Shall Erase You From the Memory of Time," will be incised into the wall that separates the private and public spaces. "The wall is only a membrane that separates us from them, and it's our obligation to remember," said museum director Alice Greenwald. Anthoula Katsimatides, whose brother died in the attacks, said she hoped visitors will "learn something about one of those beautiful people who passed away on that day" and come away with "a sense of peace and a sense of hope." The idea for the museum design began with "all the things we were given," the remnants of the complex. "A traditional museum design is an icon which contains exhibits," he said. "But this museum, the icon is the exhibit."
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  2. #182
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    It should have been a slam dunk. It should have sailed through both houses of Congress with no problems. It should have had the support of every red-blooded American in the country, most importantly our elected representatives.

    And yet it didn’t.

    H.R. 847 has been commonly referred to as the James Zadroga 9/11 Health and Compensation Act of 2010. It was named after James Zadroga, a New York City police officer who died in 2006 of respiratory disease attributed to toxins he inhaled while working for the better part of a year cleaning up Ground Zero after 9/11. Zadroga sacrificed his life, unwittingly, to search through the rubble for the victims of those infamous terrorist attacks and to bring closure to their families.

    The bill passed the House of Representatives by a wide margin. And it should have passed the Senate, as well … but Republicans stopped it.

    They filibustered the bill as part of a pledge to jettison all legislation until a comprehensive extension of the Bush Tax Cuts, which included maintaining a tax cut for the wealthiest two percent of Americans, was passed. President Obama and Senate Democrats had previously arranged for an extension of those tax cuts, minus the cuts for the nation’s wealthiest earners, but the extension failed. Republicans wanted the tax cuts to include the rich, as well, and considered the matter of such import that all other legislation paled in comparison.

    And so when the Zadroga Bill came to the Senate floor, Republicans filibustered. For them, tax cuts for people who financially don’t need them are more important than taking care of our nation’s heroes.

    This is shameful, and I for one am outraged at this brazenly out-of-touch move. The fact that they jettisoned the bill is even more baffling when you consider that Republicans are the party that turned 9/11 outrage into a political weapon. At every turn they’ve taken the opportunity to scour Democrats on their unwillingness to remember 9/11 and to honor it as they believe it should be honored. Their sudden move to block legislation that would compensate the thousands of first responders who’ve developed respiratory diseases, heart diseases, mental illnesses and cancer from working at Ground Zero is beyond insensitive at best and treasonous at worst.

    And now nothing will be done about the issue for the remainder of the lame duck session. The Senate finally passed the tax cuts, including those for the rich, on Friday, before adjourning for Christmas break. This Christmas break for them includes a week-long vacation from Monday, Dec. 27 through Friday, Dec. 31. For those of you not paying attention, that’s the week AFTER Christmas, when all of us will be back at our jobs like everyone else in the country.

    Sen. Jon Kyl (R-Ariz.), in fact, said it would be impossible for Congress to work during that week “without disrespecting one of the two holiest holidays for Christians and the families of all of the Senate.”

    So we’re to believe 9/11 first responders aren’t important enough for Senators to put in some work hours during a week in which everyone else in the country has to work, as well? Is the rest of America being disrespectful of Christmas by working that week?

    Make no mistake, folks — this is a political trick. The Zadroga Bill will get passed … but on Republican terms. The move is simply an effort to keep Senate Democrats, who will be in the minority after the New Year, from scoring one last political victory. Instead, Republicans will push the bill through early next year, and don’t doubt for a single second they will then tout the bill as one of their shining moments of glory.
    This is travesty. I am ashamed, and on behalf of others who feel the same, I send my love and apologies to the firefighters, police officers and workers who tirelessly labored to rebuild our country after its most devastating tragedy.

    David Mink is the associate editor for The Carthage Press
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    Keep them coming Brother!
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    NEVER FORGET 18 Years ago 2-26-93 the first World Trade Center attack took place killing 6 civilians and wounding over a thousand.....
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    That was the match to 9-11
    GOD BLESS ALL
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    ALL GAVE SOME BUT SOME GAVE ALL
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    For 9/11 Museum, Dispute Over Victims’ RemainsBy ANEMONA HARTOCOLLIS
    In one of the haunting legacies of the terrorist attack on the World Trade Center, the remains of 1,123 of the victims, 41 percent of the total, have not been identified, leaving many of their relatives yearning for closure. At the same time, nearly 10 years later, 9,041 pieces of human remains — mainly bone fragments but also tissue that has been dehydrated for preservation — are still being sorted through by the city’s medical examiner for DNA, though the last time a connection was made was in 2009.

    Now, a dispute over what to do with those remains is simmering between some of the victims’ families and the officials planning the National September 11 Memorial and Museum underneath where the twin towers stood.

    Officials plan to take the remains seven stories below ground and place them in the new museum behind a wall with a quotation from Virgil about never forgetting, studded in letters of World Trade Center steel. But the families, appalled by the idea of remains that could belong to their loved ones being turned into a lure for tourists, want them kept in a separate above-ground memorial that would be treated like hallowed ground.

    “To allow remains to be put in a museum, really for gawkers,” marveled Sally Regenhard, the mother of a 28-year-old probationary firefighter and aspiring writer, Christian, who died on Sept. 11, 2001. “I personally feel I’ve been robbed of access to where my son’s remains are potentially being buried. My entire family, we will never go in there. This is a post-traumatic stress situation waiting to happen.”

    How to handle remains is one of the most delicate questions that confront those trying to commemorate the darker chapters of human history. Over the past 20 years, museums across the country have grappled with how to repatriate Native American skeletons, scalps and bones to their tribal heirs, as prescribed by a 1990 federal law. At its inception, the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum in Washington debated whether to display human hair from the Nazi death camps, and decided not to when some survivors felt it would be offensive.

    In Oklahoma City, unidentified remains of the 168 victims of the 1995 bombing are buried under a grove of 168 trees on the State Capitol complex — two and a half miles from the museum chronicling the events. In Shanksville, Pa., where Flight 93 crashed on Sept. 11, only family members are allowed access to the crash site, which is assumed to contain some remains of the 40 passengers and crew members, though there will eventually be an elaborate memorial open to the public surrounding it. At Yad Vashem, the Holocaust memorial in Jerusalem, ashes from the Nazi death camps are kept in the Hall of Remembrance, separate from the museum, which turns away people who bring remains from the fields surrounding the camps.

    “We are not dealing with anatomy,” said Avner Shalev, Yad Vashem’s chairman. “This is our policy.”

    The plan at the World Trade Center is for the remains to be invisible and inaccessible to the public, museum officials said; an adjoining room will be available to victims’ families for contemplation and grieving. Although people would have to enter the museum to get to the remains, the remains will technically be in the custody of the medical examiner, so that they may be removed for future testing.

    Alice Greenwald, the museum’s director, said that because the museum would be at ground zero, it had a special place in history.

    “Yad Vashem is not the site of an atrocity,” Ms. Greenwald said. “When you go to the genocide museum in Phnom Penh, when you go to genocide museums all around Rwanda, there have been decisions in those places to present corpses, skulls, evidence of human remains. When you go to Auschwitz, the entire facility is made up of human remains.

    “Most American museums have not confronted the particular issue that we are dealing with here,” she added. “The only place one could repatriate those remains to is the World Trade Center site.” Ms. Greenwald said that was what a “majority of families have actually said over the years” that they wanted.

    Certainly, not all of the victims’ relatives oppose the plan: some are on the museum’s board. The dissenting families, including some of the most active and vocal leaders of the victims’ groups that sprang up in the aftermath of the attack, say that they supported a plan for placing the remains in something akin to the Tomb of the Unknowns, separate from the museum, but that they were shocked to learn that instead they would be near the main exhibition spaces.

    Several families said that officials sent letters to the heirs of all 2,752 victims, asking for the proper spelling of their names for panels that would adorn the memorial plaza, but that they learned of the new plan only by chance, when they attended a presentation about the museum at St. Paul’s Chapel, in Lower Manhattan, in 2009.

    “The names were important to us, of course, but what could be more important than our loved ones’ remains?” asked Rosaleen Tallon, whose brother, Sean, a probationary firefighter, was killed when the north tower collapsed.

    Those upset about the plans contacted David Hurst Thomas, a curator at the American Museum of Natural History in New York, who then brought in Chip Colwell-Chanthaphonh, an expert on the repatriation of Native American remains at the Denver Museum of Nature and Science.

    Dr. Colwell-Chanthaphonh dismissed the argument from museum officials that the remains would be hidden, saying that the Virgil quotation meant “they are essentially incorporating the human remains room into the visitor experience.” He also raised the question of consent, noting that in the celebrated “Body Worlds” exhibitions, every individual whose body was put on display had signed a form giving permission.

    “We know none of those individuals gave their consent to be on display or part of a museum exhibit,” Dr. Colwell-Chanthaphonh said of the 9/11 victims. “And we know there are lineal descendants and people in this community who are saying, ‘We want a role in this,’ and yet their requests for meaningful consultation are being denied to them.”

    Shortly after the two curators circulated a nationwide petition among their colleagues, “trying to apply some pressure” on the museum, Dr. Colwell-Chanthaphonh said, officials contacted them. “They said we were being manipulated by the advocacy groups, that there was another side to the story and that we needed to talk to them.”

    The curators and family groups met in June, but were unable to come to a resolution. As the 10th anniversary of 9/11 approaches — and, with it, the scheduled opening of the first part of the memorial — concern is resurfacing.

    To Rosemary Cain, who lost her firefighter son, George, putting the remains in the same space as the museum is “like a freak show.” Ms. Regenhard said she imagined having to squeeze past hordes of museum-goers, retracing the steps of victims trying to escape the burning World Trade Center, to get to what may be her son’s remains.

    Joe Daniels, the memorial and museum’s president, disagreed. “What the families need most and what the public needs most is a memorial they can come to to pay their respects at,” he said, “and a museum where they can come to learn about events; not reopening decisions.”

    While many of those who have dealt with these issues elsewhere expressed surprise at New York’s plan, they also acknowledged that ground zero presented unique challenges.

    Sara Bloomfield, director of the Holocaust Museum in Washington, said that “human remains are not objects that get curated and displayed,” but added that the Sept. 11 project “is a museum on a site of mass death,” putting it “into a whole other category.”

    “One of the ongoing tensions is balancing the educational goal with the goal of always honoring the memory of the victims,” Ms. Bloomfield added. “Those sometimes come into conflict, and it requires a lot of sensitivity and building a lot of dialogue and trust with your constituency, in our case Holocaust survivors. I don’t think there’s any one clear-cut answer.”

    Piotr M. A. Cywinski, director of the Auschwitz-Birkenau Memorial and Museum, said, “Every authentic memorial site has something of a museum and a cemetery in itself.”

    “Both roles should be present and clearly recognizable, yet they should not be confused and mixed,” he wrote in an e-mail. “We cannot turn back the time, just as we cannot free the space around Auschwitz-Birkenau from human ash and tiny remains of human bones. There is no sense in creating some artificial order and peace on a land contaminated with extreme evil.”
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  8. #188
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    http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/f...UROuJYtmyt4Y2K

    FDNY cancer up post-9/11
    Bravest's doc bares hero risk
    By SALLY GOLDENBERG and SUSAN EDELMAN
    Last Updated: 5:02 PM, April 3, 2011
    Posted: 1:58 AM, April 3, 2011
    Comments: 4


    A city official for the first time is revealing a rise in cancer among firefighters who served at Ground Zero, The Post has learned.
    Dr. David Prezant, the Fire Department's chief medical officer, has found that firefighters who dug for victims at the World Trade Center are getting cancer at a higher rate than firefighters before 9/11 -- and some types of cancer are "bizarrely off the charts," say sources briefed on the seven-year, federally funded study.
    Prezant discussed the findings with members of a WTC medical-monitoring committee last month, several attendees said.

    SICKENED: Lt. Randy Wiebicke (left), at Ground Zero with a fellow firefighter, died last month of multiple myeloma, which a city official says has struck the FDNY's 9/11 responders at an especially high rate.

    He has not yet disclosed the data, but sources say he has cited unusual rises in three blood cancers -- leukemia, non-Hodgkin's lymphoma and multiple myeloma -- as well as esophageal, prostate and thyroid cancers.
    The bombshell report, planned for publication around the 10th anniversary of 9/11, would be the first to document a cancer-rate increase among rescue and recovery workers.
    The city recently settled lawsuits by 10,000 WTC workers, more than 600 with cancer.
    But officials have so far insisted there is no scientific proof that Ground Zero smoke and dust caused cancer.
    An FDNY spokesman gave a statement for Prezant, saying, "The study is ongoing, and no conclusions have been reached on whether cancer rates have increased for firefighters."
    But three who attended the March 2 steering-committee meeting told The Post that Prezant reported otherwise.
    "The only conclusion that could have been reached was that there was an increase in the cancer rate for firefighters after 9/11," one said.
    Minutes of the meeting quote Prezant as saying that "we have completed our seven-year cancer study" and that he planned to present it to the fire unions, FDNY brass and Mayor Bloomberg's office.
    A doctor from the National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health asked Prezant, "In the past, you mentioned about the rates before being somewhat similar -- what led to the change that you noted the increase?"
    Prezant said researchers have compiled medical records for three years and had access to state cancer registries, though New York's is three years behind. "Those things keep adding cases," he told the group.
    Al Hagan, head of the fire-officers union, said he's alarmed.
    "I'm led to believe that the numbers for those cancers across all ranks in the Fire Department of people who worked at Ground Zero is up significantly, and we're all very concerned about it, as are our families," he said.
    Steve Cassidy, president of the firefighters union, said Ground Zero's "toxic stew" has proven lethal.
    "It's a fact that New York City firefighters are dying of cancer in record numbers," he said. "We have buried 10 firefighters in just the last 15 weeks, seven with cancer. On Sept. 10, 2001, they were young, healthy firefighters."
    FDNY Lt. Randy Wiebicke of Ladder Co. 1, who raced to the Twin Towers after the attacks, died March 2 from an aggressive form of multiple myeloma.
    "I've seen so many firemen and cops at the hospital," said his widow, Madeline.
    She said Wiebicke worked nonstop the first few days on the WTC pile and at least two 24-hour shifts a week for months.
    "He came home with his gear, car and everything covered in gray dust," she recalled.
    In 2007, doctors at Mt. Sinai Medical Center, which monitors WTC responders other than FDNY, noted blood cancers like multiple myeloma, which normally strikes in the 60s or 70s, among relatively young cops.
    The state Health Department has confirmed that 345 Ground Zero workers have died of various cancers as of last June.
    Grim toll
    The state Health Department is studying 345 cancer deaths of 9/11 responders as of June 2010. A breakdown of the most common cancers and the number of deaths attributed to them:
    * Digestive organs (esophageal, stomach, colon, liver, pancreas): 97
    * Respiratory (lung, larynx): 96
    * Blood cell (non-Hodgkin’s lymphoma, multiple myeloma, leukemia): 49
    * Urinary tract: 19
    * Brain: 18
    susan.edelman@nypost.com


    Read more: http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/f...#ixzz1IWkseZ59
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    Default About Time--Khalid Sheikh Mohammed

    The alleged mastermind of the September 11, 2001, terror attacks on the U.S. will be referred to the Defense Department for trial, three sources familiar with the case told Fox News on Monday.

    Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, who has been incarcerated in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, since 2006, after being captured in Pakistan in 2003, and five alleged Sept. 11 co-conspirators will face prosecution by a military commission in Guantanamo, a Justice Department official said.

    A formal announcement is expected by Attorney General Eric Holder later in the day. The decision is a turn-around after Holder said in November 2009 that he had decided the conspirators -- Mohammed, Walid Muhammed Salih Mubarak Bin Attash, Ramzi Bin Al Shibh, Ali Abdul-Aziz Ali and Mustafa Ahmed Al Hawsawi -- should be prosecuted in civilian court.

    At the time, President Obama said he left the decision to Holder. White House Press Secretary Jay Carney said Monday that the decision to reverse himself remained with Holder, but he didn't want to get ahead of the announcement.

    "The president's primary concern here is that the perpetrators ... of that terrible attack on the American people be brought to justice as swiftly as possible and as fairly as possible," he said.

    Debra Burlingame, head of 9/11 Families for a Safe and Strong America, said the group is "relieved" Obama "abandoned his plan" to bring the conspirators to U.S. soil.

    "We are grateful to the president for reversing his decision, conveyed to the families just last month, to go forward with civilian trials and seek repeal of congressional legislation that stripped funding for that effort," said Burlingame, whose brother was the pilot aboard American Airlines Flight 77, which was forced into the Pentagon on Sept. 11.

    "We have great confidence in the military commissions legal framework which is fair, lawful, effective and consistent with our tradition and values as a nation," she said.

    Shortly after the Obama administration came to office, the president announced that he was closing Guantanamo Bay and desired to try the conspirators in a federal civilian court. Supporters said it sent the right message to the rest of the world that U.S. courts were the fairest and best venue for trials.

    But attempts to place the suspects in a New York City courtroom were met with fierce resistance from area residents who said they didn't want to deal with another possible terror threat in downtown Manhattan that the case would bring. The potential of housing the suspects in a prison in Thomson, Ill., also faced considerable scrutiny.

    J.D. Gordon, a former Defense Department spokesman for secretaries Donald Rumsfeld and Robert Gates, said Mohammad and the other co-conspirators were already going through the military commission process before the Obama administration halted the case. He said the administration must have realized that popular opinion was against using civilian courtrooms in the United States.

    "I think they ran into the buzz saw of reality where the American public didn't see it in their best interest to hold Khalid Sheikh Mohammed in a civilian trial where he could theoretically be acquitted there and also where he'd have a chance to have his rhetoric used against us," Gordon said.

    "I think that to trust the civilian jury with some of the most dangerous terror suspects is really a flawed mistake," Gordon added.

    With the case now returning to the military commission, the process will start all over again. After the administration announced in 2009 it planned to move the trials to federal court, the military withdrew its charges without prejudice -- an action that effectively allowed it to preserve its legal position so that if the cases returned to the commissions in the future, the men could be charged again.

    As the Justice Department prepared to announce its reversal, the U.S. Supreme Court on Monday also decided to pass on a case that would have further determined the legal rights of the detainees kept at Guantanamo Bay.

    The justices turned away a petition asking them to establish the standards of evidence lower court judges should use to determine if the detainees can remain locked up while waiting for their cases to be heard.
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    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
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    Quick try that MF-er before Obama changes his mind again.
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

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    Just parade a naked woman in and around him and afterwards, slice and dice him!
    Stay Safe and Well Out There....

    Always remembering 9-11-2001 and 343+ Brothers

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    I don't know why there was so much opposition to trying him in a civilian court.

    I had faith our system of justice would have rendered a proper verdict.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

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    Forum Member DeputyChiefGonzo's Avatar
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    In my opinion.. his plotting the attacks of 9/11 was an act of war.. therefore, a military trial is warranted.
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
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    Forum Member scfire86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyChiefGonzo View Post
    In my opinion.. his plotting the attacks of 9/11 was an act of war.. therefore, a military trial is warranted.
    Military justice is still bound by due process. What's the difference?
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

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    Forum Member DeputyChiefGonzo's Avatar
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    For oner thing... it won't turn into a media circus like the first OJ trial....
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

  17. #197
    Back In Black ChiefKN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Military justice is still bound by due process. What's the difference?
    He is a foreign terrorist, captured overseas, wanted for committing acts of war against this country.... for starters.

    He was not arrested by a police officer, read his Miranda rights, and in general... not treated as a civilian criminal.

    Quite honestly, our courts are not set up for this sort of thing. A military tribunal is.
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

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    Early Adopter cozmosis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    Quite honestly, our courts are not set up for this sort of thing. A military tribunal is.
    I tend to agree. However, I also think that it's a non-traditional "war crime" because the traditional concept of war is gone forever. No longer is our enemy limited to a foreign country, whose combatants will all wear the same uniform and be easy to identify.

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    Back In Black ChiefKN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cozmosis View Post
    I tend to agree. However, I also think that it's a non-traditional "war crime" because the traditional concept of war is gone forever. No longer is our enemy limited to a foreign country, whose combatants will all wear the same uniform and be easy to identify.
    Sure, but it's closer to war then an arrest after a police investigation.... just ask those guys over their fighting. Its a war.
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

    "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

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    Forum Member Rescue101's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    Quick try that MF-er before Obama changes his mind again.
    Try him? TARGET PRACTICE,he's escaping! T.C.

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