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  1. #21
    MembersZone Subscriber ChiefReason's Avatar
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    Well, if you watched any of the Iowa "Cau-cau" wrap ups, you got to witness Howard Dean's meltdown. Couldn't even remember the rest of the 50 states.
    And then the exclamation point was the good ole boy "yeeeeeeaaaahhh" at the end.
    Rumor has that many were asking for refunds on their political donations to him!
    Kerry and Edwards for the Dems.
    Can either beat Bush?
    Will Hilary leave Bill?
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  2. #22
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    George Bush all the way!!!!!
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  3. #23
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    Sharkie,
    Law enforcement, teachers, nurses, firefighters etc. are not special interest. They are the foundation services of society. They are not rich corporations or wealthy business people looking for tax breaks. They are groups that need a voice for safer working conditions and funds that municipalities fail to provide. How many times do we hear that municipalities are threatening layoffs and cutting budgets? Isn't backing a candidate a good way to take these problems further?

  4. #24
    Forum Member DaSharkie's Avatar
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    How many times do we hear that municipalities are threatening layoffs and cutting budgets?
    And this is a federal government problem why? (I was really hoping to avoid this responsibility argument.)

    Isn't backing a candidate a good way to take these problems further?
    Again, why is this important at the national level? Again, I couldn't care less who a union supports, becu\ause it is not the membership supporting them, only the E-board.



    Law enforcement, teachers, nurses, firefighters etc. are not special interest. They are the foundation services of society. They are not rich corporations or wealthy business people looking for tax breaks.
    Ah, but they have their own agenda and desires and use political unfluence and contributions in order to get them. Ergo, they are a special interest, whether they are "foundation services" or not. Just to clarify, I am only speaking of the union organizations and associations that "represent" the individuals who work for the municipalities.

    They are groups that need a voice for safer working conditions
    This is why we have OSHA, and labor standards. Obtained by the above stated unions and associations- A.K.A. the special interests.

    and funds that municipalities fail to provide.
    Why should I, living in Backwoods, Massachusetts, have FEDERAL tax dollars spent on services to a local community in Podunk, Arizona? As I and others have said on numerous board posts here before, it is not a FEDERAL government to provide local services.

    They are not rich corporations or wealthy business people looking for tax breaks.
    But they are looking out for what is best for themselves, and their membership, just as a business, or individual is looking out for what is best ofr themselves. Do I like the system? Not really, but when you allow these special interest groups, of any sort, to manipulate the system this is what we get. And so you know, those same tax benefits that wealthy individuals are able to use, are available to all people in this country, should yo uavail yourself of the breaks. The same benefits for large companies are available to smaller firms. Just as the IAFF pushes benefit all firefighters, call, volunteer, union, non-union. Thus, a special interest.
    "Too many people spend money they haven't earned, to buy things they don't want, to impress people they don't like." Will Rogers

    The borrower is slave to the lender. Proverbs 22:7 - Debt free since 10/5/2009.

    "No man's life, liberty, or property are safe while the legislature is in session." - New York Judge Gideon Tucker

    "As Americans we must always remember that we all have a common enemy, an enemy that is dangerous, powerful and relentless. I refer, of course, to the federal government." - Dave Barry

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  5. #25
    MembersZone Subscriber ChiefReason's Avatar
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    Thought this was kinda funny:
    From Jay Leno:
    Good news for Howard Dean’s wife; it looks like she’s going to get the privacy she wanted. .... Did you see that speech Howard Dean gave last night? I heard that the cows in Iowa are now afraid of getting mad dean disease. I’m not an expert in politics, but i think it’s a bad sign when your speech ends with your aides shooting you with a tranquilizer gun. .... I tell you something fascinating -- John Kerry’s victory over Howard Dean has completely changed the presidential race around. Now instead of the rich white guy from Yale who lives in the White House facing off against the rich white guy from Yale who lives in Vermont, he may have to face the rich white guy from Yale who lives in Massachusetts. It’s a whole different game. .... John Kerry said in his speech last night that this is the beginning of the end of the Bush administration. I agree, hey, it might take 5 years, but it will be the end of the Bush administration. .... Of course the big surprise -- John Edwards came in second. Edwards was quite eloquent. He said, "We have two Americans, one for the rich, one for the poor. Two countries with two tax systems, two school systems and two medical systems." Today President Bush said, "Why don’t you become president of the crappy one?" .... Dick Gephardt dropped out of the presidential race today. He said apparently the country isn’t ready for a really, really white president. .... Senator Joe Lieberman skipped Iowa and is devoting all his energies on losing in New Hampshire. .... How about Dennis Kucinich? He finished behind Martha Stewart.
    For the record; I have no special interest in the problems of the Democrats!
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  6. #26
    FIREMAN 1st GRADE E40FDNYL35's Avatar
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    Default Unions Examine Operations After Iowa

    WASHINGTON -- A unified labor movement packs a political punch. A fractured one looks like Iowa.

    Some unions are taking a hard look at their political influence and voter turnout operations after the two labor-backed candidates expected to dominate Iowa's caucuses sank instead. Leaders of industrial unions that formed a coalition supporting Dick Gephardt, called Americans for Economic Justice, decided Wednesday to carry on without the candidate, who dropped out a day earlier after a poor fourth-place showing. "We want to make sure the issues of jobs, health care and trade are being talked about even though the main champion of those issues is out of the race," said Bret Caldwell, spokesman for the Teamsters, a coalition member.

    But a new endorsement isn't likely.

    The coalition wants to influence the remaining Democrats, and will be active with ads, fliers and member education in upcoming primaries, especially in labor-dense states such as Missouri on Feb. 3, where more than 13 percent of the work force belongs to a union, and in Michigan on Feb. 7, where more than 21 percent of the work force is a union member. In Iowa, about 11 percent of workers are union members. Organized labor's manpower and money are important political weapons for Democrats. But Iowa showed that a disorganized movement, even in a state where union support was considered crucial, isn't nearly as impressive.
    Of the AFL-CIO's 64 unions, less than half have endorsed a candidate. Those that endorsed were mostly split between Gephardt and Howard Dean, who, despite the backing of two of the largest unions in the country, finished third behind John Kerry and John Edwards.
    Gephardt and Dean couldn't even get the bulk of the union household vote, which went to Kerry, whose only labor support was the small International Association of Fire Fighters.
    "We found members that were highly supportive of Dick Gephardt and would have walked across the Mississippi River to help him if they could," said Rick Sloan, spokesman for the International Association of Machinists, which endorsed Gephardt. "But we also had members who were turned off by the process, and there were members who supported other candidates. That's their right."
    Labor isn't likely to reunite until Democrats select a nominee to challenge President Bush in November.
    In fact, hard feelings remain for some Gephardt unions over the decision by the large public and service sector unions to support Dean over the Missouri congressman, a longtime labor ally. With Gephardt out of the race, Dean isn't likely to pick up much of his union support.
    "I don't anticipate us arriving at another candidate," said Donald Kaniewski, political director of the Laborers' International Union of North America, a coalition member. "We've got plenty of work to do on jobs, health care and trade, and that work will continue."
    But Kerry and Edwards are working hard to lure Gephardt's union support, even if it didn't win him Iowa.
    Union members and their families were outnumbered by new caucus-goers probably turned off by the negative campaigning between Dean and Gephardt, union leaders say. And Gephardt failed to expand his base of support beyond labor.
    Fewer than one-fourth of participants in the caucuses were from union households, according to entrance polls conducted for The Associated Press and the television networks by Edison Media Research and Mitofsky International. In 2000, one-third of Iowa voters were from union households.
    "I've had a number of conversations with several union presidents in the last 30 hours," said Harold Schaitberger, president of the International Association of Fire Fighters, which endorsed Kerry.
    Several are "currently evaluating and taking a pretty serious look," he said. The New Hampshire primary is Tuesday, and Schaitberger said he is telling his colleagues that "if you want to have some impact on the journey to the White House, you need to get on board now."
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  7. #27
    Forum Member stm4710's Avatar
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    Default Bush in 04'

    As I have said before--Howard Dean is an idiot,this just furthers my case.

    Dean's Raucous Iowa Speech Lives On


    By WILL LESTER

    WASHINGTON (Jan. 21) - Howard Dean is trying to get past the speech he delivered after the Iowa caucuses, but the image lingers on the Internet, late-night talk shows and in what could be a serious problem for the campaign - among New Hampshire voters.

    Political analysts and pollsters are watching to see if Monday night's enthusiastic, fist-pumping speech becomes one of those famous presidential campaign moments etched indelibly in the public's mind.

    In the three days leading up to the Iowa caucuses, Dean's favorable rating among New Hampshire voters dropped from 59 percent to 39 percent in a sample of 302 voters Tuesday night, according to Dick Bennett of the American Research Group of Manchester. The size of a one-night sample is small enough that such results have to be viewed with caution, however.




    In several tracking polls out Wednesday, Dean and John Kerry were locked in a statistical tie, with Wesley Clark close behind. Dean was once far ahead. A tracking poll is an ongoing poll with totals from the last two or three nights combined to produce a nightly result.

    Bennett said his phone operators heard from voters who said they were surprised by Dean's speech. "That thing has legs," he said.

    "I think it crystallized a lot of the concerns voters in Iowa had as well as voters in New Hampshire had about Dean's potential temperament as a president," added Andrew Smith, a political scientist and pollster at the University of New Hampshire. "My sense is that this will go down with Edmund Muskie supposedly crying in front of the (Manchester) Union Leader (in 1972) and Bob Dole telling George Bush to `stop lying about my record.' (in 1988)."

    Gerry Chervinsky, who is polling New Hampshire for The Boston Globe and WBZ-TV, said Dean's favorable rating had dropped 11 points, from 67 percent to 56 percent, in the last week. He said the drop wouldn't all be attributable to Monday night's remarks, but added: "That speech could not have helped him in any way."

    Dean, the one-time Democratic front-runner grinned, rolled up his sleeves and tried to rally supporters in Des Moines by shouting out a list of primary states.



    Getty Images
    Following his speech, Dean's campaign aides are trying to show a softer, dignified candidate. Details

    "Not only are we going to New Hampshire ..., we're going to South Carolina and Oklahoma and Arizona and North Dakota and New Mexico, and we're going to California and Texas and New York," he said. "And we're going to South Dakota and Oregon and Washington and Michigan. And then we're going to Washington, D.C. To take back the White House. Yeah."

    Dean explained the enthusiastic speech Tuesday by saying: "You've got to have some fun in this business." Supporters said he wanted to offer encouragement to volunteers who worked hard for him in Iowa, only to be disappointed by his third-place finish.

    Democratic consultant James Carville, who was in New Hampshire attending campaign events, said of Dean's Iowa speech, "It hurt him."

    Pat Buchanan, a former Republican presidential candidate, said: "Dean's Iowa defeat was a real setback to him, but his post-game commentary was a disaster. That tape will be on every national talk show, I don't think it's survivable."

    Late-night comedy shows provide campaign news to growing numbers of people, according to a recent poll by the Pew Research Center for the People & the Press. One-fifth of young adults said they regularly learn about the campaign from such programs.

    When David Letterman rolled the video Tuesday, Dean's head appeared to explode at the end of the speech. "Did you see Howard Dean ranting and raving?" he asked the audience. "Here's a little tip, Howard: cut back on the Red Bull."

    On his program, Jay Leno quipped: "I'm not an expert in politics, but I think it's a bad sign when your speech ends with your aides shooting you with a tranquilizer gun."

    Jon Stewart introduced the clip on his show by saying, "That whole 'Dean anger thing,' it's a bum rap. The guy has his emotions under control."

    Charles Jones, a presidential scholar, said Dean's speech contributes to the notion that he's not quite ready for prime time.

    "Some have compared it with the over enthusiastic reaction of (Dan) Quayle" when he was picked as George H.W. Bush's running mate, Jones said.
    I dont suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.

  8. #28
    Senior Member Dalmatian90's Avatar
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    Default

    For those who haven't seen it, theres a link from here:
    http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/p..._1n22dean.html

    Political moments that'll rank right up there with Dukakis in an M-1...
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  9. #29
    Senior Member Dalmatian90's Avatar
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    http://homepage.mac.com/lileks/.Public/Yeagh.mp3

    So, is this a new word for Dean's war cry: "Yeagh" ???
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  10. #30
    Forum Member stm4710's Avatar
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    Default Re-elect President Bush in 04'

    Well my wonderful girlfriend just broke my heart. She registerd to vote and is now a registerd democrap.

    Acourse she thinks the dem's are pro-life like she is.......oye vey I wish she atleast found out what the partys stand for before picking one----women.
    I dont suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.

  11. #31
    MembersZone Subscriber Duffman's Avatar
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    Again, why is this important at the national level? Again, I couldn't care less who a union supports, becu\ause it is not the membership supporting them, only the E-board.
    A mere speculative generality. If you don't like what your E-board is doing, how about getting yourself elected to the board. If the membership doesn't agree with the current board, you should win in a landslide. Your later statement shown below, seems a bit contradictory.
    But they are looking out for what is best for themselves, and their membership,
    At least you recognize some of the good unions have done.
    This is why we have OSHA, and labor standards. Obtained by the above stated unions and associations- A.K.A. the special interests.
    By your definition, just what groups are not special interests?

    Why should I, living in Backwoods, Massachusetts, have FEDERAL tax dollars spent on services to a local community in Podunk, Arizona? As I and others have said on numerous board posts here before, it is not a FEDERAL government to provide local services.
    Do you feel the same when the Federal funds are being used for law enforcement, roads and other local infrastructure?
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  12. #32
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    By your definition, just what groups are not special interests?
    Very good question.

    Kerry's definition is any organization who does not support him. He doesn't think the NEA, trial lawyers and NOW are special interests.

  13. #33
    FIREMAN 1st GRADE E40FDNYL35's Avatar
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    Default Bush State of the Union Ignores Fire Fighters

    January 22, 2004 - President George W. Bush addressed the nation on January 20 with his 2004 State of the Union speech before a joint a session of Congress. The 58-minute speech outlined the President’s vision for America and his priorities for the second session of the 108th Congress.
    While the President repeatedly lauded America’s police officers and law enforcement community and promised to support their mission, he never mentioned fire fighters or first responders. The comprehensive speech made no reference to supporting any program or initiative to address the pressing needs of fire fighters.
    “It is regrettable that the President chose to ignore our profession and its needs, “ commented IAFF General President Harold A. Schaitberger.
    The administration has opposed IAFF initiatives such as the SAFER Act to hire 75,000 new fire fighters with federal funds and has refused to fully fund the Assistance to Fire Fighters Grant Program in three successive budgets (FIRE Act). “Even though budget cuts have forced layoffs, brown-outs and station closings across the country, the administration has taken a laissez-faire approach to ensuring the nation’s safety and security, as evidenced in the State of the Union speech,” Schaitberger said.
    “We have battled this administration before and we will continue to work with our friends in Congress---both Republicans and Democrats---to make sure the needs of our fire fighters are met,” continued Schaitberger.
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    FF. Bruce Gary Engine 40
    FF. Jimmy Giberson Ladder 35
    FF. Michael Otten Ladder 35 *
    FF. Steve Mercado Engine 40 *
    FF. Kevin Bracken Engine 40 *
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    FF. Michael Roberts Ladder 35 *
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  14. #34
    Forum Member DaSharkie's Avatar
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    If you don't like what your E-board is doing, how about getting yourself elected to the board. If the membership doesn't agree with the current board, you should win in a landslide.
    Seeing as how I am no longer a member of the IAFF I can't get elected to the E-board. My original point is still the same. Unless the general membership votes in a majority to put the union's support behind a candidate, then it means nothing to me.

    Your later statement shown below, seems a bit contradictory.
    I don't think so. This is what the e-board states. This is what union leadership states. They support, or choose to, a candidate that is going to do what is best for them, the union / membership, not the greater picture of the country, just their particular area / areas of interest.

    By your definition, just what groups are not special interests?
    Well, let us see.....

    If you have a political action committee, then you are a special interest. If you solicit, as a group, organization, or corporation, any elected official to receive benefits for you or to curry favor, then you are a special interest. If you do not buy this, then I will say this to you:

    After the Supreme Court chose to strip my first ammendment rights to support a candidate away from me last month, anyone or any group is considered a special interest under the auspices of campaign finance reform. As an individual, I, as an individual, cannot run an add on my local TV station in support or against a candidate, neither can the NRA, IAFF, NARAL, NAACP, AFL - CIO, or any other group. We are considered a special interest. I do not like it, but the 9 people in black robes in DC have decided it as such.

    Do you feel the same when the Federal funds are being used for law enforcement, roads and other local infrastructure?
    Yes I do. With the exception of interstate highways, which support interstate / international commerce, federal tax dollars should not be dispensed to local communities in order to pave my road.

    Local money should be used to pay for local police officers, firefighters, teachers, DPW, etc. It is not the federal governement's responsibility to provide for the local government. Unfortunately, the feds will not reduce the tax intake and shift the tax burden to more local collection, i.e. reduce the federal tax burden, and shift to local and state burdens.

    As for the infrastructure, well I will point you the Big Dig, in Boston. A boondoggle if I have ever seen one. Granted it is for an interstate, but because of the mismanagement of federal funds in Boston, the state budget has had to absorb increases and a diminishment of federal tax dollars for other highway projects. The rest of the state is suffering through crumbling roads and bridges for a 15 BILLION dollar hole in the ground, that froze up last week, yes it froze and 2 lanes had to be shut down. This for a road that only benefits those who live immediately North or South of the city of Boston, not benefiting the rest of the state.

    The administration has opposed IAFF initiatives such as the SAFER Act to hire 75,000 new fire fighters with federal funds
    The SAFER act will not add 75,000 new firefighters. It will be like the COPS grants for the police. No new police officers were added in the long run. When officers retired, they were not replaced because there were additional officers on the rosters and no additional costs were accrued by the city to hire / train new officers. Very few police departments that hired officers under the COPS programs have seen an increase in officer ranks. The same will happen for firefighters. If a local community needs new firefighters, it is up to that community to hire them, not the federal government.

    and has refused to fully fund the Assistance to Fire Fighters Grant Program in three successive budgets (FIRE Act).
    Again, it is not a federal responsibilty to ensure that you have bunker gear, radios, PASS devices, new fire engines, fire prevention, etc.. It is the local government's responsibility.
    "Too many people spend money they haven't earned, to buy things they don't want, to impress people they don't like." Will Rogers

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  15. #35
    MembersZone Subscriber Duffman's Avatar
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    After the Supreme Court chose to strip my first ammendment rights to support a candidate away from me last month
    A ridiculous interpretation of campaign finance reform on your part. I watched the Iowa caucuses. Over 100,000 people were out supporting their candidate. Millions across the country do the same.

    The SAFER act will not add 75,000 new firefighters. It will be like the COPS grants for the police. No new police officers were added in the long run. When officers retired, they were not replaced because there were additional officers on the rosters and no additional costs were accrued by the city to hire / train new officers. Very few police departments that hired officers under the COPS programs have seen an increase in officer ranks.
    Once again you have contradicted yourself. First you say no new police officers were added, then you say "very few departments" added to their ranks. Where are the fact? I know of two departments off the top of my head who added six, and ten officers to the ranks.
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  16. #36
    Forum Member DaSharkie's Avatar
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    A ridiculous interpretation of campaign finance reform on your part. I watched the Iowa caucuses. Over 100,000 people were out supporting their candidate. Millions across the country do the same.
    But why am I not allowed to do so 60 days prior to the general election? This restricts free speech and the free exercise thereof, a law passed by congress. Do I need to quote verbatim the first amendment to you?

    Once again you have contradicted yourself. First you say no new police officers were added, then you say "very few departments" added to their ranks. Where are the fact? I know of two departments off the top of my head who added six, and ten officers to the ranks.
    In the overall scheme of things, has the roster (the number) of officers increased from the period prior to the grants? I know of two departments where this is the case. I used to work for one as a dispatcher and there are no more officers on the streets than before they took the grants.

    I suppose it is a contradiction due to my poor choice of words. In general, I believe most (the vast majority) of departments that did take the grants had no net increase in officer numbers after 3 - 5 years.

    My point is still the same, or my opinion is, that it is not the federal government's responsibility to fund the positions of teachers, firefighters, paramedics, law enforcement officers, DPW workers, etc. at the local level. If you want them, increase the LOCAL tax base / rate to provide for adequate protection / service, do not pawn off the security / service of one community onto another.
    "Too many people spend money they haven't earned, to buy things they don't want, to impress people they don't like." Will Rogers

    The borrower is slave to the lender. Proverbs 22:7 - Debt free since 10/5/2009.

    "No man's life, liberty, or property are safe while the legislature is in session." - New York Judge Gideon Tucker

    "As Americans we must always remember that we all have a common enemy, an enemy that is dangerous, powerful and relentless. I refer, of course, to the federal government." - Dave Barry

    www.daveramsey.com www.clarkhoward.com www.heritage.org

  17. #37
    MembersZone Subscriber Duffman's Avatar
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    But why am I not allowed to do so 60 days prior to the general election? This restricts free speech and the free exercise thereof, a law passed by congress. Do I need to quote verbatim the first amendment to you?
    You can support your candidate whenever the hell you want. Placing restrictions on how campaigns are financed does not violate your freedom of speech. Don't insult my intelligence by offering to recite the first amendment, or by trying to argue that campaign finance reform violates it.
    "We shouldn't be opening firehouses in Baghdad and closing them in New York City."

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  18. #38
    Forum Member DaSharkie's Avatar
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    I may support my candidate, but I may not run an advertisement in support of my candidate, as an individual citizen, or part of a group, for 60 days prior to the election. I cannot run an add on TV or on the radio. Neither can any group or "special interest" to which I contribute money in order to support a candidate. This is wrong and does violate the free speech clause.

    Even the candidates cannot place ads on TV or the radio. All candidate information for 60 days prior to a general election will come from teh media, and we know straight forward adn unbiased they all are don't we.

    I never had a problem showing my support for a candidate, only running advertisement notices in support of a candidate by any INDIVIDUAL or group. This is a violation of free speech. Every court ruling, with this exception, was in support of INDIVIDUAL rights. Now my INDIVIDUAL right to run those supportive / non-supportive ads is gone.

    You have your opinion, and I have mine. We disagree, and that will probably not change. And there will be further challenges to this pathetic law. If anyone thinks that these yutzes in Washington really wanted to clean up elections they are out of their mind. It is a manner for these people to continue to be elected and stay in office for decades, a la Ted Kennedy, Strom Thurmond, John McCain, or Richard Byrd. Don't insult my intelligence by telling me otherwise.
    "Too many people spend money they haven't earned, to buy things they don't want, to impress people they don't like." Will Rogers

    The borrower is slave to the lender. Proverbs 22:7 - Debt free since 10/5/2009.

    "No man's life, liberty, or property are safe while the legislature is in session." - New York Judge Gideon Tucker

    "As Americans we must always remember that we all have a common enemy, an enemy that is dangerous, powerful and relentless. I refer, of course, to the federal government." - Dave Barry

    www.daveramsey.com www.clarkhoward.com www.heritage.org

  19. #39
    MembersZone Subscriber Duffman's Avatar
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    It is a manner for these people to continue to be elected and stay in office for decades, a la Ted Kennedy, Strom Thurmond, John McCain, or Richard Byrd. Don't insult my intelligence by telling me otherwise.
    The American public is to blame for keeping these people in office for decades. See, if they don't get the votes, they don't stay.

    The apathy in this country astounds me. I don't need TV or radio ads shoved down my throat to be aware that there is an election and decide who to vote for. In fact, I don't base my opinion on them at all.

    What is wrong with individuals educating themselves on the candidates? We should not be electing officials based on television commercials.




    Sharkie, I did not mean to insult your intelligence.
    Last edited by Duffman; 01-24-2004 at 09:11 AM.
    "We shouldn't be opening firehouses in Baghdad and closing them in New York City."

    IACOJ

  20. #40
    Forum Member DeputyChiefGonzo's Avatar
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    Sharkie...

    Campaign reform was passed by both the House and Senate and signed by President Bush... what political affliation are the majority leaders?

    I think they have an "R" after their names....
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

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