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  1. #1
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    Default Nfpa 1500 Vs. Cfr 1910?

    in 1500, the "2 out" are permitted to do several outside duties, and these were spelled out in the appendix. two or three examples of how a 4 person crew could be assigned. one of those examples is to have 2 f.f. on hose (2-in), 1 f.f. on pump, and co.officer at the door(2-out). BUT the federal standard says that only one of the outside can take on another task. so, how do you do it? how do you split up the 4 person crew and meet the federal standard?


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    Default Re: Nfpa 1500 Vs. Cfr 1910?

    Originally posted by LFD2203
    in 1500, the "2 out" are permitted to do several outside duties, and these were spelled out in the appendix. two or three examples of how a 4 person crew could be assigned. one of those examples is to have 2 f.f. on hose (2-in), 1 f.f. on pump, and co.officer at the door(2-out). BUT the federal standard says that only one of the outside can take on another task. so, how do you do it? how do you split up the 4 person crew and meet the federal standard?
    Someone has to take initial command of an incident, and if there is life being threatened, the 2 in 2 out rule goes out the window. One way around it all is adequate staffing!
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    You went too deep cap'n gonz,,,no life hazard, size up says you are reasonably sure that an attack can be made to stop the fire with your 4 person crew. help is several minutes out. how do you/your dept use your 4 people?
    adequate staffing issue is not solved at the front door of the burning structure. we have to address that in the political arena. i'm looking for the on the fireground answer.

    surely there are more of you out there with an opinion on the conflict between these two standards.
    be safe...

  4. #4
    dazed and confused Resq14's Avatar
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    Default

    Remember that "in" and "out" do not mean inside and outside. They pertain to inside of an IDLH environment, and outside of an IDLH environment.

    Only 1 of the "out" crew can be committed to another task. Is IC a committed task, or can the first-due officer be an offensive working commander if need be? Can your pump be dead-manned if the SHTF? I feel both the pump operator and IC can be pressed into service if needed.

    "The pump operator can be counted a one of the four as long as abandonment of the apparatus will not adversely affect firefighter rescue efforts. A reliable water supply adequate to contain the incident shall be established prior to utilizing the pump operator as part of the rescue team."


    2-in/2-out does not apply when "emergency rescue activities" need to be implemented. I won't stir up that hornets nest again though.
    Last edited by Resq14; 02-15-2004 at 03:42 AM.
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    Okay, from NFPA 1500, the appendix:
    A.8.4.11 The following examples show how a department could deploy a team of four members initially at the scene of a structure fire, regardless of how the team members are assembled:
    (1) The team leader and one fire fighter could advance a fire-fighting hoseline into the IDLH atmosphere, and one fire fighter and the pump operator become the standby members.
    (2) The team leader could designate the pump operator to be the incident commander. The team leader and one fire fighter enter the IDLH atmosphere, and one fire fighter and pump operator remain outside as the standby members.
    (3) Two fire fighters could advance the hoseline in the IDLH atmosphere, and the team leader and pump operator remain outside as standby members.
    CFR 1910 says you can only have ONE of the two outside perform an additional role such as pump operator, IC, etc. But, 1500 clearly says differently.
    so again I ask, does anyone have a rule, guideline, suggestion, gut feeling, as to how to resolve this conflict?
    I'm not opposed to the pump operator getting involved if the inside crew is in trouble. It looks to me that if you follow CFR 1910, the Company Officer must ge on the attack line.

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    Forum Member Weruj1's Avatar
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    for us we dont have a procedure as it would be rare to have this occur for us to only have 4 FF on a scene........I am not sure what the answer is .............but not to surporised that the Feds and the NFPA have differing standards.
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    For us the 2 out is the IC and MPO. Our staff has gone over this many times and in their opinion that meets the OSHA standard. Which by the way is the more restrictive and the only true important one, since it is the law.

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    Originally posted by ADSNWFLD
    For us the 2 out is the IC and MPO. Our staff has gone over this many times and in their opinion that meets the OSHA standard. Which by the way is the more restrictive and the only true important one, since it is the law.
    Not bashing, but ADSN, what happens when the 2 out commit? Does that mean there would be be no one outside? We, in looking at the OSHA reg. cma eup with the opinion that either the MPO or the IC could count as one of the out, not both. Just wondering how you guys came up with your opinion.

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    Default 1500/2in 2out

    If your department is finding itself in this position often then CaptainGonzo is right on the mark you need proper staffing.
    You say that the size-up tells you this fire can be handled with 4 ffís. No life hazard, help is several minutes out. As you pull up to the scene you drop a man at the plug your driver is running the pump that leaves the officer and the nozzle man. Here is where I get concerned. Does the exterior size-up tell you what conditions are like inside? Are there holes in the floor, maybe the stairs are burned out? Do you need the building vented, entry forced, should it be searched? Back-up lines? There are plenty of other duties that Iím probably forgetting. Itís been my experience( and mine is not unique, I work for a fairly large fd, we go to fires regularly) that things commonly go wrong at fire scenes, mistakes are made. Itís how we recover from these things that determine the success of the incident. I would like to think that if we were in that situation we would take some sort of defensive action, wait until help arrives and re-evaluate.
    This is a perfect scenario for all that risk assessment that is being stressed to us today. What are you saving here? Sometimes things go bad real fast, if you get yourself into a jam THERE IS NO HELP! The crewís safety should take priority over trying to find a way around a law/standard in order to justify your actions if a ff was to get injured or worse. I realize that proper staffing is not a realistic option in many departments. This type of dangerously low manpower will probably turn a fire department into an exposure protection department. Know your limits and work within your capabilities. We are proud to be firefighters, we want to get the job done, but save the really risky stuff for when it is absolutely necessary. The next one is just around the corner. STAY SAFE BROTHERS !!

  10. #10
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    Default 4 man engine companies

    Our engine companies have 4 members on them, 2 FF's, an engineer and a captain.
    I am not referring to any of the 'federal' positions you spoke of.

    We also have a Task Force assignment(Truck and 2 engines, 10 FF's total) being dispatched along with the engine to a single family residential type fire. It is or was always a fun challenge to see how much we could get going before the task force arrived on scene.

    Many times, we already had our supply line laid, entry, interior attack being made, ceiling being pulled and / or search and rescue being done. Yes, granted, it would get mighty hot n smokie in there before the truck would come to open the place up for us.

    Both FF's would dismount to catch the plug, one would stay behind at the hydrant, the other FF would then get on the tail board to insure no hang ups from the supply line, once at the fire ground scene, company officer would start his size up, while the FF and engineer start making and breaking couplings, connecitons and pumping. Once the hydrant was opened, the FF would come up the supply line, tightening couplings, straightening kinks, get to the engine, strap on his SCBA, get pike pole and back up the nozzle man already inside. That is, of course, one scenario, entry having been made.

    I fortuenetly have always worked with fire departments with enough manpower to mount an interior attack when applicable.

    Along with that, some of the mutual aid fire departments bordering us could not do the same as they only had 3 members on the rigs. It was very common for them to mount an exterior attack, regardless, even if they had the added manpower.

    Through training and experience, we can then normally get a pretty good clue as to what we are going to do.
    COMMON SENSE towards overall SAFETY should be paramount.

    Just another view point from another FF.

    One more aspect, though I could see in case of severe emergency where the engineer may need to 'abandon' the pump panel, I would not recommend doing so in practice, to make up for manpower. Murphy's law and gremlins are always around.
    Greg

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