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    Default NO-vertime

    If there's a paid firefighter in here that's not worried about their future earnings, or, is still pondering re-electing our incumbent President. I suggest you review our new federal budget.

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    Stop playing games and tell us what you are talking about. I guess it was time for another union vs. non union debate.

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    1. I don't play games.

    2. I don't play union/non-union games.

    3. Bush's "Overtime Rule" which was defeated in October was interlaced in the current Federal Budget which just passed. Republicans and Aye voting Democrats drove a spike into the hearts of millions of blue collar workers, Nationwide.

    The Pork was so thick you couldn't cut it with a knife.

    Go ahead and vote for him George. Keep your blinders on. I warned you about this bill in September and it will erode your wallet along with 8 million other Americans.

    But fear not. Big Business and the DHS will reap the benifits.

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    Default A little more detail

    The recent omnibus spending bill passed last Thursday, contained language that changes FLSA overtime rules. Some low income workers currently not eligible for OT would become eligible. Many workers who currently receive OT would become ineligible. It has to do with their "white collar" status. The term "white collar" is being used extremely liberally in this case.

    I read the exact language in the Federal Register a few months ago.
    The DOL actually explained to employers how they could circumvent the rule change in the case of low income workers who would become eligible for OT.

    The document listed very specific instructions on how to reduce the hourly rate of those low income employees who regularly work over 40 hours per week in order to avoid the additional hours paid at time and one half to equate to more money than they currently earn.

    Opponents of these changes estimate the number of workers who would lose the right to OT at around 8 million.

    Those in the government who support the changes estimate the number at "only" about half a million.
    "We shouldn't be opening firehouses in Baghdad and closing them in New York City."

    IACOJ

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    Funny, the all "powerful" IAFF finds money to back Kerry and print t shirts yet cant hire good lobbyest's......
    I dont suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.

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    Funny, the all "powerful" IAFF finds money to back Kerry and print t shirts yet cant hire good lobbyest's......
    Jesse, once again you are spouting off about things you know nothing about. The best lobbyists in the world would not get every legislator to vote their way every time.

    The IAFF does not purport itself to be all powerful. But since you brought it up, the IAFF and FOP have been involved with protecting overtime for first responders. At one point verbal assurances were made that Fire, Police, and EMS would not be affected. Of course, verbal assurances aren't worth much.

    Your angst for the IAFF and unions is well known. You will probably back pedal your way out of these comments the same way you do everytime, by accusing people of not being able to take a joke.

    I suppose that is easier than trying to defend your ridiculous arguments.
    "We shouldn't be opening firehouses in Baghdad and closing them in New York City."

    IACOJ

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    Anyone have anymore resources on this issue? A link to an article would be great so everyone can understand what exactly is going on.
    *Fraternal Order Of Paramedics Member*
    EMT-b (in training)

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    Originally posted by stm4710
    Funny, the all "powerful" IAFF finds money to back Kerry and print t shirts yet cant hire good lobbyest's......
    This will affect alot more than just IAFF members kid.

    As an Industrial EMT, I'll bet that any day now I receive a notice from my employer that I'm now classified as a "professional" and thus exempt from overtime pay.

    A special thanks to W and his administration for sneaking this in on us working stiffs. "Leave no billionaire behind" eh boys?
    FTM-PTB-DTRT

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    The best lobbyists in the world would not get every legislator to vote their way every time.
    Thats the beauty of this democracy you only need to convince 2/3 rds of them!
    You will probably back pedal your way out of these comments the same way you do everytime,
    Fat chance.

    The recent omnibus spending bill passed last Thursday,
    A special thanks to W and his administration for sneaking this in on us working stiffs. "Leave no billionaire behind" eh boys?
    I assume the people at these leftist watch dog groups can read as well as 229,duff, GW(CFI)and I. So if this budget was so bad where were they? Where was the stink? Where were the press releases? Where were these groups on tv claiming unfair? Where are the letters to your congressmen and senators protesting this?

    You know the president just wrote it........its your congressmen and senators that passed it........wait Kerry is a senator!
    I dont suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.

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    Posted on Thu, Jan. 22, 2004

    Federal budget battle hits agencies hard
    The 2004 spending bill is nearly four months late, meaning programs are stuck at '03 levels. The Senate may act today.
    By Jim Abrams
    Associated Press

    WASHINGTON - This winter's harsh flu outbreak is passing without the $50 million lawmakers promised for expanding vaccine production. Millions of federal workers are seeing slimmer-than-expected paychecks. Initiatives for fighting global AIDS, wildfires and terrorism have been threatened.

    The reason: Congress is nearly four months late in finishing the government's budget.

    The Senate seemed likely to break through Democratic stalling tactics today and give final approval to a $373 billion bill financing scores of federal agencies for the remaining eight months of the budget year.

    But until President Bush signs the legislation, most federal agencies will continue operating at 2003 spending levels, depriving them of about $6 billion in increases slated under the 2004 spending plan. The delay has put some projects on hold or in doubt.

    The package combines the last seven spending bills for this year. Congress must pass 13 annually.

    "The consequences of delay on this bill are real and the dangers are great," Sen. Ted Stevens (R., Alaska), chairman of the Senate Appropriations Committee, said last month in a futile attempt to end Democratic opposition.

    Repercussions are already hitting close to home. Without a new budget, civil servants have received only a 2 percent pay raise this year, rather than the 4.1 percent granted in the legislation. Since Jan. 1, members of Congress have received a 1.5 percent increase over their $154,700 salaries of 2003, rather than the 2.2 percent boost they will get once the Senate sends the last piece of the budget to the White House and President Bush signs it.

    As for the flu, the spending bill would set aside $50 million to diversify the manufacturing base for vaccines - too late for this flu season, when vaccines were sometimes scarce but a possible help for fighting future outbreaks.

    Veterans Affairs Secretary Anthony Principi said it "would be absolutely disastrous" if VA health care programs did not get their $3.1 billion increase, to $28.6 billion, under the 2004 bill.

    He said that doctors at VA hospitals already were leaving at a rate of 1 percent a month and that his department was having a hard time replacing them. Until the increase comes, veterans already waiting months for an appointment are at risk of facing longer delays as well as slower responses to their disability claims.

    It will even be harder to find space in VA cemeteries at a time when 1,800 veterans are dying every day, he said.

    Many agencies manage by shifting money and priorities. Stevens warned that the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention could be deprived of money needed to combat emerging infectious diseases such as SARS and monkeypox, but CDC officials gave assurances that their work in these areas is not being impeded because of the budget fights.

    In some instances exceptions are made to the 2003 budget ceilings. Labor Secretary Elaine Chao said $50 million promised to the states in 2004 to retrain workers displaced by foreign trade competition would go out as scheduled.

    C. Todd Jones, associate deputy secretary for the budget in the Education Department, said money for special education and disadvantaged students typically did not go out until July 1, so there has been little impact from Congress' inaction. Both programs will get big increases once the last budget piece is in place.

    Should the stalemate continue, other consequences include:

    The FBI could lose out on hundreds of millions of dollars directed to hiring agents and fighting terrorism.

    The first year of President Bush's five-year, $15 billion plan to combat global AIDS would be underfunded by about $1 billion.

    An allocation of $1 billion for the new Millennium Challenge Account, the President's initiative to direct aid to those countries promoting democracy and economic reforms, would be put on hold.

    AmeriCorps would have to delay enrolling tens of thousands of volunteers, thwarting Bush's goal of reaching 75,000.

    Poorer families might have to wait longer for Section 8 rent-subsidy vouchers.
    I dont suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.

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    Correct me if I'm wrong (and its entirely possible that I am, I'll say that upfront) but didn't we already hash this out and discover that union employees (any union, the way I recall reading it at the time) exempt from these rules?

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    Correct me if I'm wrong (and its entirely possible that I am, I'll say that upfront) but didn't we already hash this out and discover that union employees (any union, the way I recall reading it at the time) exempt from these rules?
    Sure...and that's what, 10-12% of the Nation's workforce?
    http://www.bls.gov/news.release/union2.nr0.htm

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    C-Buff I don't remember if it was hashed out here before. My thinking is that union employees would only be exempt for the duration of their current CBA. For their next contract this issue would become a factor in bargaining. Maybe the union could keep their OT, but because they will have to bargain for it, they may lose something elswhere in the contract.

    That said, there would still be thousands of employees losing their overtime. This isn't just a union issue.

    Now on to Jesse.
    I assume the people at these leftist watch dog groups can read as well as 229,duff, GW(CFI)and I. So if this budget was so bad where were they? Where was the stink?
    They were here...
    Democratic stalling tactics
    ...democratic congressmen fought this as did many "watchdog groups". The vote needed to end the stalling measures passed by one. This was fought and fought hard because of the OT rule change and other junk thrown into the bill.

    Those opposed to this bill relented because...
    Without a new budget, civil servants have received only a 2 percent pay raise this year, rather than the 4.1 percent granted in the legislation.
    and because...
    The FBI could lose out on hundreds of millions of dollars directed to hiring agents and fighting terrorism.
    ...among other reasons.

    You see Jesse, this is how things work in Washington. Those who hold the majority can stick crap like this OT rule change into another piece of legislation.

    You know the president just wrote it
    No, the Department of Labor wrote it.

    Finally Jesse, explain to me exactly why taking overtime pay away from people is a good idea.

    Are you defending the OT rule change, or are you just here to stir the pot?
    "We shouldn't be opening firehouses in Baghdad and closing them in New York City."

    IACOJ

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    Default

    Here are a few more articles on this initiative.

    US Dept of Labour

    U.S. offers tips on avoiding overtime pay

    AFL-CIO Website
    Never argue with an Idiot. They drag you down to their level, and then beat you with experience!

    IACOJ

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    I have never, ever, not once received overtime pay. Due to this, I am obviously not personally affected by this legislation. With that said ...

    Ok, fine, this may get passed, this may suck. So why doesn't the focus of the IAFF, and whoever else performs lobbying functions for this sort of thing, change to requiring pay increases so that the yearly income of those affected does not change, and limits on the amount of hours one person can work? Why do we keep blaming the government for what happens, or for what they don't do?

    Starting salaries for firemen in NYC is what ... $30,000? THAT'S ATROCIOUS!!! This is just the next step in the process to screw people who put the safety of others above their own well-being. When will the focus change? When will "they" (whoever "they" are) step up to the plate and start playing hard ball? A true capitalist environment is one that is survival of the fittest. A true democracy is when the power of the people is heard. If the people will not unite and influence the powers that be ... well then shame on them.

    It is not what happens to you that is most important, it is how you respond to it.

    Stay Safe
    Last edited by PAVolunteer; 01-26-2004 at 08:29 AM.

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    Keeping in mind that I am a union member...

    In my opinion, this is another big union scare tactic. The way I read this is that this administration is revising a set of rules that is badly outdated (30 years old) to more closely reflect the workplace of the 21st century. I see nowhere in the bill, the comments or the articles about the budget where I, as a police officer, will lose my OT when I work it.

    What should get cut, is the ability for a worker to call in sick or take a vacation day and then work OT. Or automatic OT just because of the day of the week (a union that I know of requires that their members recieve 1.5 OT for working Sunday...even if that is their regular day). Or the ability of a worker to call up and demand an OT assignment simply because he feels like working. Or anyone of the other dozens of ways that employees-public or private- abuse the OT priveleges.

    If I work add'l hours, I should get paid an OT rate for it. Especially if it is in my contract. But I have no right to expect or demand that I receive OT.

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    or are you just here to stir the pot?
    Not I.
    Finally Jesse, explain to me exactly why taking overtime pay away from people is a good idea.
    I dont want to hitch wagons but George beat me to it in saying.........
    What should get cut, is the ability for a worker to call in sick or take a vacation day and then work OT. Or automatic OT just because of the day of the week
    Or the ability of a worker to call up and demand an OT assignment simply because he feels like working. Or anyone of the other dozens of ways that employees-public or private- abuse the OT priveleges.
    In my opinion, this is another big union scare tactic
    Why do we keep blaming the government for what happens, or for what they don't do?
    IMO unions SOMETIMES(I stress the sometimes)act like babys--when they dont get what they want its waaaaa waaaaaaaaaa waaaaaaaaa. I think in this case if the left and affected peoples are so concerned about this why dont they start a grass roots campaign to pass bill like the rest of us repealing this OT rule. It would solve the problem--if there was one.

    Starting salaries for firemen in NYC is what ... $30,000? THAT'S ATROCIOUS!!!
    Yes it is.
    I dont suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.

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    George, I know we have had our moments in the past, but Sir, you are RIGHT ON THE MONEY!


    I go to work expecting to make a 40 Hour pay period and nothing more. If Emergency Staffing shortages arise, or the National Alert level Rises and we need to upstaff or if we cover additional regions for our sister center, I will work the OT and in those instances, they are justified.

    At no time will I demand OT, Use sick leave and collect OT or use any other tactics to justify OT.

    PG County Maryland is the OT abuse capitol of Maryland. Instead of replacing a shift firefighter who retires, transfers, is on injured leave or whatever, they just fill the slot with OT. You see guys happy as pigs in slop, working 2, 24 hours hifts per week extra all on OT. Instead of assigning someone in the slot, the OT Pigs just take it. I am sorry, I don't want to ride with an appratus driver who has been working for 48 hours straight. If you need money that bad, get a part-time job. It's unfair for the people paying your salaries to make another living off of OT.

    You all knew Fire/Rescue was not Fortune 500 when you signed up.

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    Stm...You sure have a lot of insight into unions. How old are you again? Tillerman. You dont have a problem working with an off duty fulltime firefighter that just got off his 24 hour shift at your volunteer station though do you? Anyone that enters the fire service for the cash isn't really thinking things out. I work a 53 hour week WITHOUT O.T. I am not complaining but it comes out to 2756 hours per year..Quite a bit over the 2080 of a 40 hour worker. I saw who this is effecting. Lower wage earners. It is just another sad chapter in an administration that slowly but surely wants to erode the rights of workers. Maybe we should all follow the fine example of that wholesome "All American" Company WAL-MART.
    IAFF-IACOJ PROUD

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    I go to work expecting to make a 40 Hour pay period and nothing more. If Emergency Staffing shortages arise, or the National Alert level Rises and we need to upstaff or if we cover additional regions for our sister center, I will work the OT and in those instances, they are justified.
    Now you'll do it for nothing, right? Not having to pay OT everytime the DHS raises the threat level will quiet down all the municipalities screaming due to the cost incurred. Gee, maybe ole Dubbya's on to something. Eliminate CB rights of Federal Workers, eliminate OT for S, C and M workers. Damn, we can protect this country for free at this rate and spend our money on Domed Rain Forests in Iowa!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Get your heads outta your asses and see the Republicans who drafted this "reform" and the Democrats who were bribed into voting for it in exchange for the Pork Projects inclusions are selling the workers down the river. You think your CBA protects you? Call me in a few years when your Overtime "Rights" have become "Perks" or gone all together!

    I'm not blaming either side of the aisle, I'm blaming BOTH!!!!!!
    Last edited by E229Lt; 01-26-2004 at 04:22 PM.

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    It won't affect me because my IAFF-negotiated contract precludes that from happening. Will they try to take something away in the next contract? Of course they will....they always do. But it works both ways....that's why it's called NEGOTIATING. If anyone should be worried about this it's the volunteers who work a supervisory job in the private sector, or who have a blue-collar position. The labor dept. is sending out instructions on how to avoid your overtime, and if it goes away you might not have the time to spend volunteering - that time might be spent trying to feed your kids or pay the mortgage. I'll still be doing the same thing I am today.

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    Why do FD's pay overtime instead of hiring additional personnel? because it's cheaper than paying out additional benefits, etc.

    Trust me, we would all love to have more warm bodies on the rigs, but it isn't happening...
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

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    Default Good point Ron

    I dont mind working some overtime, but several years ago it was close to criminal. We were being ordered in because of a serious lack of staffing that was caused by the city. In a smallish department like mine, we have "call backs" for serious stuff, fires etc. I also get called in as part of a fire investigators team. So contrary to some opinion out here, I really dont consider it as one poster so eloquently put it "whoring" for overtime, but more like being paid for my time.
    IAFF-IACOJ PROUD

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    Funny, the all "powerful" IAFF finds money to back Kerry and print t shirts yet cant hire good lobbyest's......
    With statements like these Jesse, it is abundantly clear why you have had, and will continue to have so much trouble in life.

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    It really cracks me up to read some of these replies. It sounds as if some in here just have it out for our President. At least that is who I think they were refering too, albeit derogaterily. It also seems as if there are quite a few who dont understand how overtime works in career fire departments. Take a few moments and visit the republican party website, at www.gop.com and maybe that will clear up and misunderstandings on the subject. Any time a bill is passed in congress, it is a mere representation of what it started out as. Between the house and senate, and all of the other "special interests" groups who get their hands on it, it takes on quite a different look. It is very difficult for the government to regulate our entire nation from D.C. , since our nation is so large and encompasses such a great and diverse population. There is no way that they can legislate enough to cover every person or scenario that could be presented. Of course cities and employers are going to try and interpret laws to benefit them regarding over time, and unions will also do like wise. It appeared to myself that the government is trying to prevent as best they can frivolous over time, and save money by not allowing abuses to occur. Unions are going to try and portray these laws in a way to benefit themselves, and the government just the opposite. Instead of just flying off the handle and blaming the IAFF, or the government read up on what it is that has your undies in a bunch, and then contact your elected officials and voice your opinion. Just FYI, I am a 10 year IAFF member with a 1400 member union and am paying very close attention to what is going on, and i do support our President all the way.

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