1. #51
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    FFFred, it is obvious that your panties are in a wad because someone is not kissing your rear. I would expect that if Alan Baird came on here and defended his position and his actions, there would be people crawling all over him. Everyone has an excuse or a defense for their actions, even if they are BS.

    You have been whining like a girl too. By sitting her an arguing with me, you might look just as foolish to some.

    For the record I haven't or seen any other FDNY member bash or blame your volly depts for anything.
    Lets set the record straight. The VFD that I belong to has nothing to do with my opinions or my views. They are strictly mine and have been gathered over time on my own accord and not with someone from my VFD guiding me or telling me what to say. I sm not attacking YOU or the FDNY, I am attacking the DEPLORABLE ACTIONS that have taken place. Fact or not, the mere accusation of ALCOHOL, DRUGS or ASSAULT or ARSON in the Fire Service is DEPLORABLE. We take positions of public trust and the public trusts us to come into their homes to serve them. I don't think too many of them would want someone coming to their homes who has set a fire, ignored rules and got someone hurt, is drunk, on drugs, assaults people or covers up bad behavior.

    We are no DIFFERENT than any other group or organization...we have our problems just like everyone else...including your dept. whether you believe it or not.
    Not saying we don't have problems. We just don't have them of this magnitude. Do a search, I don't think you will find us on the front page of Firehouse.com ( I guess that is a tabloid media outlet too) unless it is referencing a significant (fire or EMS related) incident in our area.

    We ARE second to NONE. And that includes you and your little outfit. And it doesn't come from taking buff photos in front of burning houses.
    If it were hanging in some Nutjobs basement who had never ridden a firetruck because he was mentally unstable or whatever, I would agree it was a buff photo. However the picture taken went along with years of pictures that adorn our TV and Workout room that chronicle the history and personnel in our department, it's called pride. I can probably find many of the same type pics on any of the dozens of FDNY company websites. But I am not going tit for tat with you, because I am better than that.

    Just because a brother is down doesn't mean you desert him. You stand by him and you give him a hand up. That is the right thing to do.
    What if he is bringing your department to a negative light? What if he is implicating you by your association? What is the limit we stand by people who are accused? Why wasn't anyone standing by "Giving Brother Baird a Hand up?" What about the Driver of the Tanker in Wyoming? Where is his hand up? All they got was a bunch of people from OTHER DEPARTMENTS calling for their heads. So much for the Brotherhood there....

    Backstabbing and (figuratively) leaving a brother for dead isn't Brotherhood. But it is clear you'll never understand that.
    Replace Backstabbing with "Not Covering Up for someone who does something Stupid therefore keeping your nose clean" is what I call "Job Security." You cannot cloak this with Brotherhood dude. Brotherhood is not about defending the wrongdoers. They have Lawyers for that. Giving the guy a word of encouragement here and there is fine, but risking your own butt to keep someone out of trouble is NOT WORTH IT!

    What is offending and regrettable is you generalize, exaggerate and make up your own "facts"(as if you had a clue) about what happened
    Not following you here Slick. I used what was presented in the News Stories. I never made up any "facts." How about when it is generalized that Volunteers are arsonists and glory hogs? (Never seen too many glorified TV shows about Podunk FD)

    Lets desert them, screw them and their problems! Every man for himself!
    If it keeps my personnel file clean, you are damn right.

    Your comments indicate you have a weak constitution and you probably wouldn't last on the fire floor. I'm Glad I'm not in Clinton, Maryland Home of the Immaculate Volly FD!
    Been there for 12 years, 8 more to go. Never had any issues with a weak constitution. I support my friends, but if supporting my friends causes me to have any negative actions placed on me, write-ups, suspensions or what have you, I am out of there.

    Not an Immaculate VFD, but like I said earlier, they have nothing to do with it. My opinions were formed on my own and I wasn't attacking your department, just the actions and the dimwits that acted them.

    Save yourself the energy in your fingers dude. Arguing with me is like arguing with a brick wall. I will be here until I get banned or you shut up or get angry and ignore me. I won't back down from my position on this issue. What are you gonna do about my opinion? Come down and beat me up?.....LOL (that would be pretty childish)

  2. #52
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    Cellblock776...

    >WHOA!! Dude, That's uncalled for in any forum. You need to take a timeout.<

    I could not agree with you more thanks for the support.

    PAVolunteer...

    I did read what you typed and I STAND BEHIND what I wrote. You cannot bash another fire department, career or volunteer, while at the same time moaning and wailing pitifully when others do that to a volunteer fire department.

    I am both a career FF in a medium sized city and a volunteer in a small rural community. I find the use of drugs or alcohol while on duty, or as a volly being under the influence when responding to be absolutley without any defense at all. However, my viewpoint is now clear that I will not jump on the bash the FF bandwagon until the proof is out and clear.

    Just an editorial comment...as a 2 hatter it is quite interesting to me to see why we have trouble moving ahead in the fire service in this country. We spend so much time bashing each other we need no outside forces to destroy us. Some vollies hate the paid guys, some paid guys hate the vollies, even some paid guys that were vollies hate the vollies. Heck 3 days out of 9 I hate the vollies and 6 days out of 9 I hate the paid guys. Talk about a split personality!! To me all this crap boils down to is that stupid mindless endless argument. Although, I guess there are some paid guys who want to jump on the FDNY too.

    I am proud of the 2 departments I am associated with. I think within our resources we do a heck of a good job for our citizens. That does not mean I can't admire and appreciate the job done by the FDNY, Boston, Chicago, LA City and County, Phoenix and even closer to home Milwaukee. I don't want to be them and everything they do may not work for us, but if they have something that they do that we can learn from why reinvent the wheel over and over and over.

    Stay safe all of my Brothers and Sisters.

    FyredUp

  3. #53
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    Fyred, I can agree with your post. I concede to it.


    PAVolunteer,

    Looks like we are on the same page to an extent. and BTW, like the ICON! Go Flyers! (Caps lost Jagr, I am disgruntled with them now..LOL)

  4. #54
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    Originally posted by TillerMan25
    It is shocking to alot of people Dave. These are the "Report from Engine Co. 82" guy, the guys everyone put high up on a pedestal after 9-11, the guys who are part of the worlds largest professional Fire Department.
    Just a nitpick, IIRC the Tokyo fire department has something like 14,000, I think that they are the largest. They also have 7 robots, I like robots.

    Sorry if it offends the regular posters from the FDNY, but their Department is no better than yours, mine or ours.
    Lets lighten up people, everybody is human (except those robots in disquse) so lets all get along...

    OR LETS GET IT ON!!!

    PVFD (My Voly) Vs. FDNY

    Tale of the tape (From FDNY website and My PVFD info cheat sheet)

    NYC Population - 8,008,278
    PVFD Fire District Population- 1,000

    FDNY Coverage Area- 321.8 Sq. Miles
    PVFD coverage area- 740 Sq. Miles

    FDNY Personel- 12,000(?) Nice round number anyway
    PVFD personel- 27

    FDNY Units: ? Lots of pumpers and Tucks?
    PVFD units: 9 Brush, 3 tenders (water tankers that dont fly), 2 pumpers, 1 CAFS, 1 Command, 1 Support

    FDNY Terrain: Urban Jugle
    PVFD Terrain: Western US mix of prairie, badlands, pine forest, small town

    FDNY mission: Firefighting, Hazmat, EMS (more?)
    PVFD mission: Firefighting, EMS support calls, no actualy ambulance EMS mission, there is a seperate Voly ambulance crew

    While we (PVFD) cover nearly twice as many square miles as the FDNY, they have 8000 times our population, and about 445 times our manpower.



    Looking at the square miles covered, one could concieve that we are under staffed.

    PVFD firefighters per square mile: .036 firefighters per square mile
    FDNY firefighters per square mile: 37.4 firefighters per square mile

    The FDNY has 1039 times more firefighters per square mile then the PVFD does.

    But, when comparing the proportions of manpower per population, the FDNY seems very under staffed.

    PVFD firefighters per citizen: 0.027
    FNCY firefighters per citizen: 0.0015

    The PVFD has 18 times more firefighters per citzen then the FDNY does.

    A look at the fire stats, 2002 (FDNY stats link: http://www.nyc.gov/html/fdny/pdf/sta...cwsum_cy02.pdf):

    FDNY total fires for 2002: 51563 fires of all types.
    PVFD total fires for 2002: 62 fires of all types (mostly wildfire)

    Fires per firefighter FDNY 2002: 4.29 fires
    Fires per firefighter PVFD 2002: 2.29

    The FDNY firefighter on average fought 2 more fires in 2002 then did a PVFD fire fighter. Of course there are FDNY firefighers that made many more fires then that, as there are PVFD firefighters that never miss a call, but that is the average from the stats I have on hand from FDNY website and my PVFD records I keep handy for grants.

    But, lets now examine what the FDNY terms as "Serious Incidents" ("those fires that imply severity, from "all hands", which is a fire or incident where an minimum of four fire units are fully engauged, to 5th alarm or higher."

    Everyone of the PVFD call ran in 2002 meet the FDNY definition of a "serious incident" due to the fact that each page out brings the majority of the 27 PVFD firefighters. Given that the PVFD vehicle staffing requirment is 2 firefighters (1 under special circumstances), the 4 unit reponse is a given at every incident.

    Serious incidents for 2002:

    FDNY serious incidents: 2946 for .25 serious incidents per firefighter
    PVFD serious incidents: 62 for 2.29 serious incidetns per firefighter

    When one compares the budgets of the FDNY to the PVFD, it is very shocking... and very amusing. But, since that is so very lop sidded, lets compare the budget the FDNY spends on one firefighter to the entire PVFD fire budget. I will take the salary listed on the FDNY website for a 5 year veteran firefigher. I will use this number bacause the average experience for the PVFD is 5 or greater years.

    FDNY 5 year veterain compensation: $61,511 (70,000)
    PVFD anual yearly budget 3 year average:$55,000

    After you take into acount the money spent on one 5 year FDNY veterain for training and equiping, I would approximate that the FDNY 5 year veterain budget would reach about 70,000$.

    The FDNY spends 22% more on one firefighter then the PFVD spends on its year firefighting budget.

    While statistics are fun, lets examine actualy fireground senarios.

    Senario 1, Fighting fire in NYC:

    Hell, we dont even have a ladder truck. We would be screwed fighting fire in NY!!! Our 2 tired old pumpers and our CAFS wildland heavy, the units that put out our structure and vehicle fires are wholy and completely unsuited for the fire enviroment in NYC. Let alone the staffing requirment. Our 27 guys, even if they didnt have to worry about working their day job, would be streatched so thin that we would soon be overwhealmed by the fire situation. The ensuing firestorm would in short order comsume the entirety of NYC. We would be shamed beyond belief, we would be the laughing stock of the world, and then the criminal negligence trials would begin.

    The FDNY has over the years perfected fighting fire in their coverage area. Every piece of equipment, from the pumpers/ladders to the PPE is idealy suited to fighting fire in NYC.

    The FDNY record for fighting fire in this environment is legendary.

    Senario 2, Fighting fire in Rural Montana:

    But, if they come out here to the great plains/badlands of Montana, I do belive my Voly department would have the upper hand. I dont know how many brush trucks the FDNY has, but I am reasonalby sure we are better prepared for the western wildland fire season then the FDNY is. I would like to see them take tower truck up a logging trail! Not gonna happen. Their black PPE and leather helmets, while cool, are NOT COOL! I shudder to imagine the touture of trying to chink in hotline on a running forest fire while whearing black PBI turnouts and 5 pounds of dead cow on your head. Pass the gatoraid! So, not only are their vehicles completely unsiuted to our fire evnvironment, their PPE is also very wrong. It may be possible for them to take their huge amount of manpower and hose, hook their pumper up to the nearest lake, and surround/drowned a large running MT wildfire, but that is an unproven tactic.

    The PVFD has over the years perfected fighting fire in their district. Every piece of equipment, from vehicles to PPE, is completly focused and ideal for fighting fire in the PVFD fire district.

    The PVFD record for fighting fire in this environement is legendary.

    Conclusion

    While one could argue either way in this PVFD Vs. FDNY discussion, I am going out on a limb and calling this one...

    A DRAW!!!

    I can not in good consious proclaim that my VFD is better then the FDNY. But, I can not in good concious concede that the FDNY is better then my VFD.

    Hopefully that will lighten up everyones mood. Dont be to hard on the FDNY, and dont be hard on the podunk VFDs, they both have thier own uniqe problems to deal with.

    And we are all human.

    Except those damn robots in disguise.
    Last edited by SamsonFCDES; 02-05-2004 at 01:36 PM.
    -Brotherhood: I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.
    -Mistakes: It could be that the purpose of you life is to serve as a warning to others.

    -Adversity: That which does not kill me postpones the inevitable.

    -Despair: Its always darkest before it goes Pitch Black.

  5. #55
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    Talking

    Samson you only forgot 1 thing,But its a big one.
    When FDNY shows up in your town the pop DOUBLES !!!!
    how will that affect your numbers?

  6. #56
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    Originally posted by firemanpat29
    Samson you only forgot 1 thing,But its a big one.
    When FDNY shows up in your town the pop DOUBLES !!!!
    how will that affect your numbers?
    That alone would more then qualify as a "Serious Incident"!!!



    We would have to call in the MT National Gaurds just to feed everybody!
    -Brotherhood: I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.
    -Mistakes: It could be that the purpose of you life is to serve as a warning to others.

    -Adversity: That which does not kill me postpones the inevitable.

    -Despair: Its always darkest before it goes Pitch Black.

  7. #57
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    Arguing with me is like arguing with a brick wall.
    That about says it all.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Tiller,

    Someone isn't kissing my rear??? You obviously have your own misconceptions about me and the FDNY in general. I'll defend my brothers if they are defamed, unlike you who will do everything to distance himself from every single one of them.

    Having an argument because I disagree with the basis for your comments doesn't make me foolish in any way. It is clear with your attempts to change the subject to unrealated incidents such as Allan Baird or other Volly problems and topics that have nothing to do with the issue at hand that the source of your comments comes from some insecurity or deep bitterness you feel towards the FDNY.

    If that isn't enough proof you said it yourself:
    It is more of a "FDNY vs. the Rest of the Fire Service" aspect for me.
    Some make clear and concise points about the relevant topic at hand...you bring up all sorts of references to volly problems in depts that no one(other than you) here has made mention of(at least in this thread).

    If you think reading a newspaper article gives you the facts...place the DailyNews, Post, Times, etc. next to each other. Look at how the "facts" change signifigantly in many stories about the same incident they write about, not just FDNY or NYPD stories.

    Do a search, I don't think you will find us on the front page of Firehouse.com ( I guess that is a tabloid media outlet too) unless it is referencing a significant (fire or EMS related) incident in our area.
    The reason seems to escape you that your dept isn't on the cover of firehouse.com because you aren't the largest FD, you don't have a highly competitive media market(refering to the tabliod like papers of NYC not FH.com).

    You resort to immature and disloyal comments or juvinile name calling and some riduculous diatribe that no one can't even begin to address:
    Fyred Up, it's puzzle time.

    Gimme a Two-word phrase that starts with "F" and ends with "U?"

    Can be a verb or a noun. Insert it into your brain from me to you tough guy, and have a nice day. And end that with a "G.F.Y." (If you can figure that one out.
    ------------------------------------------------------------------
    If it makes me look bad or could possible implicate me, I will damn sure abandon them.
    ------------------------------------------------------------------
    but risking your own butt to keep someone out of trouble is NOT WORTH IT!
    ------------------------------------------------------------------
    Save yourself the energy in your fingers dude. Arguing with me is like arguing with a brick wall. I will be here until I get banned or you shut up or get angry and ignore me. I won't back down from my position on this issue. What are you gonna do about my opinion? Come down and beat me up?.....LOL (that would be pretty childish)
    I'm glad you said it yourself "tough guy"

    Although I've never met a brick walls as so obvioulously jealous and bitter as you!

    You first distance yourself from the PGFD then your own vol fire company! Wow..you are man of loyalty! Sampson understands it..how come you can't?(see below)

    I'll say it again:

    "Apparently you only know and understand the easy half of brotherhood...not the difficult half."

    FTM-PTB

    PS:
    "A DRAW!!!

    I can not in good consious proclaim that my VFD is better then the FDNY. But, I can not in good concious concede that the FDNY is better then my VFD."

    SamsonFCDES,
    Thats it, you've got it! Take pride in your dept no matter where you are. I stand by my brothers and you can stand by yours. Make your own traditions, and don't try to bring down others to make yourself feel better.

    FTM-PTB
    Last edited by FFFRED; 02-05-2004 at 03:03 PM.

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    I did read what you typed and I STAND BEHIND what I wrote. You cannot bash another fire department, career or volunteer, while at the same time moaning and wailing pitifully when others do that to a volunteer fire department.
    FyredUp ...

    First - Please post where I bashed another FD.

    Second - You clearly are not getting it. I am not moaning and wailing pitifully when others call out a volunteer fire department, BECAUSE I AGREE WITH THEM. What I am questioning is why the attitude changes when it's about the Fire Department of the City of New York.

    Tiller ... to an extent, yes ... you just take that extent a whole lot further than I ever could ...

    ... and as for Jagr ... he was never truly a Capital ... he was just a Penguin in a Washington uniform ...

    Stay Safe

  10. #60
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    I dont know how many brush trucks the FDNY has
    We gotta bunch of these:
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    Last edited by E229Lt; 02-05-2004 at 03:37 PM.

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    Default Hey LT

    What is that thing?

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    Originally posted by E229Lt


    We gotta bunch of these:
    Nice.

    We have a bunch, er, I mean 1 of these.



    -Brotherhood: I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.
    -Mistakes: It could be that the purpose of you life is to serve as a warning to others.

    -Adversity: That which does not kill me postpones the inevitable.

    -Despair: Its always darkest before it goes Pitch Black.

  13. #63
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    Okay, we'll call it a draw

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    And we also get some of these once in a while, but only if the Feds or States is paying for the drop.



    That is a Tanker.

    When we need water for our trucks, you dont call for a Tanker, or you will get one of those.

    You call for a Tender.

    -Brotherhood: I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.
    -Mistakes: It could be that the purpose of you life is to serve as a warning to others.

    -Adversity: That which does not kill me postpones the inevitable.

    -Despair: Its always darkest before it goes Pitch Black.

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    Originally posted by E229Lt
    Okay, we'll call it a draw
    First show me YOUR tanker!

    -Brotherhood: I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.
    -Mistakes: It could be that the purpose of you life is to serve as a warning to others.

    -Adversity: That which does not kill me postpones the inevitable.

    -Despair: Its always darkest before it goes Pitch Black.

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    Actualy I cant realy complain about our brush trucks. We are set up pretty well. The state DNRC gives up some support for brush trucks, and we have been very lucking in finding Fed brush trucks for cheap surplus prices. Thats how we came about our CAFS wildland heavy, it was a BLM wildfire unit we bought on surplus.
    -Brotherhood: I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.
    -Mistakes: It could be that the purpose of you life is to serve as a warning to others.

    -Adversity: That which does not kill me postpones the inevitable.

    -Despair: Its always darkest before it goes Pitch Black.

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    First show me YOUR tanker!
    Does this count?
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    Oh, I forgot we sold this little 10,000 gpm beauty:
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    Originally posted by E229Lt


    Does this count?
    NOT FAIR!!!

    We dont have a boat.



    Then again we dont have a body of water big enough for that thing to float on.

    How much can it pump?
    -Brotherhood: I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.
    -Mistakes: It could be that the purpose of you life is to serve as a warning to others.

    -Adversity: That which does not kill me postpones the inevitable.

    -Despair: Its always darkest before it goes Pitch Black.

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    All right LT now you are just showing off

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    You like big deck guns?
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    EFD840 wrote:
    Forgetting all the tactical uses of portable extinguishers, has anyone down there looked at the ISO chart of required equipment for pumpers lately? They say you've got to have a water and dry chem.
    Nobody in our fire Department had ever taken a FF1 class until last summer. When 6 of us enrolled in the class one of the things we learned was about the requirement for portable extinguishers on the pumpers. The next meeting night we brought up the topic and the Chief, who has 20 years of volunteer FF experiance, says that we will not carry them. I mentioned the "we have 1000 gallons of water on each truck" mindset and that's the way it is in our department ISO or not. There's no point arguing and being on the Department Board was no use either since no matter what the Board decides the Chief has final say and can override any Board decisions at anytime.

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    Originally posted by E229Lt
    Oh, I forgot we sold this little 10,000 gpm beauty:
    Well, we dont own or operate these with the PVFD, but we do get to see them on fires ocasionaly.

    http://www.wildlandfire.com/pics/heli10/haymanheavy.jpg

    About 3500$ an hour for that sucker (no pun intended).

    http://www.wildlandfire.com/pics/dozer/canadadozer.jpg

    Catepillar rocks!
    -Brotherhood: I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.
    -Mistakes: It could be that the purpose of you life is to serve as a warning to others.

    -Adversity: That which does not kill me postpones the inevitable.

    -Despair: Its always darkest before it goes Pitch Black.

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    I remember reading about that one when I was a kid (25yrs ago)
    isn't that the Super Pumper ?Didn't the cab and several other cabs
    had BIG ***** deck guns?????????????

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    What about your back up? Do you have back up like this?





    Never mind.

    With 12,000 fire fighters you probly dont need backup.

    -Brotherhood: I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.
    -Mistakes: It could be that the purpose of you life is to serve as a warning to others.

    -Adversity: That which does not kill me postpones the inevitable.

    -Despair: Its always darkest before it goes Pitch Black.

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