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  1. #1
    Forum Member backdraft663's Avatar
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    Default Not Enought Heat??

    Anyone hear about the just recent law about Training burns? Our Training Officer advised us that at the begining of the year they say now when at Training Burns the Temperature cannot exceed 800 Degrees F. Whats your guys opinions on this.

    Personally I could stand on either side.

    First off When your out in the field at an actual fire do you think the temperature is going to be only 800 Degrees? I think not, so why shouldnt we train, so we know what the actual conditions are.

    On the other hand as always SAFETY FIRST.
    Ryan

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    I think what their getting at is safety conditions that arise during such training. Our turn-out gear is so well made that by the time you feel that the heat is to hot, you have placed yourself in a situation that is unsafe.

    You should have ventilation in place prior to entering a well involved structure, this should help remove some of the temp. When temps reach high heat range the structure that you are about to enter is to the point were it is unsafe to be in anyways.

    Remember that we will risk alot to save alot, and risk a little to save little.

  3. #3
    MembersZone Subscriber CrossBro1's Avatar
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    I don't think there is anything wrong with setting a maximum temperature a training fire can reach. The purpose is to train and learn, not get killed for no reason. Besides, our bodies can withstand a temperature of 800 degrees. If we train with lower temperatures maybe we will be more likely to recognize when we shouldn't be in a volitile atmosphere and get out before we become statistics.

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    Forum Member Weruj1's Avatar
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    I know that the local burn tower we ocassionaly use the temp cant get above 600 I beleive ...........'77 you know for sure ?
    IACOJ both divisions and PROUD OF IT !
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  5. #5
    Senior Member hotboy's Avatar
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    Some would say safety. Others would say cost.
    Lately there have been numerous complaints to the training facilities from fire companies in regards to structural burn and flashover survival. Many companies send firefighters to these courses and they come back with melted helmets, that are NFPA compliant. The firemens relief association doesnt want to keep footing the bill and the fire companies dont either. Someone has to pay for these damaged helmets.
    I went to flashover survival in 2001 we had 60 firefighters in our class and every time a team came out their helmet was melted,mostly the visors. "Controlled Burn" is just that.
    Last edited by hotboy; 02-05-2004 at 01:47 AM.
    If we don't do it nobody else will!!!!

  6. #6
    Senior Member Dalmatian90's Avatar
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    If it wouldn't violate any Heart & Lung provisions, I need to give CrossBro a cigar

    I've been in enough real fires and enough training burns to know many times the burn buildings are much hotter than real life. Gotta wonder if that's why we have guys not recognizing when it's time to get out?

    A great example I know of from about 4 years ago. Nearby department with good funding was sending three new guys through FFI at the local fire school. Brand new PBI gear. All three sets ruined.

    The instructors wanted them to "get used to the heat" -- the new guys were on a floor above the fire floor while evolutions going on below. Left alone till an instructor came back up, "Shoot, you guys oughta get out of here now, it's hot." Hot enough the PBI gear had been damaged -- new guys had never been inside to know any better, they just sat their like their instructors told them to.

    At least they learned that was too hot by the gear damage -- how many new firefighters get close but not that far -- trained in situations way too hot so they don't recognize when to get out 'cause they've "gotten used to the heat."

    We train firefighters in black-out masks or low visibility and heat so they can make a push through to the fire when needed. Is it that surprising then when we start to read NIOSH reports of firefighters entering buildings with zero visibility and high heat to "search" for the fire? I'm afraid sometimes we get a disconnect between training for skills/confidence needed when making a "push" towards a specific objective and people thinking operating in zero visibility/high heat is normal operations
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    Forum Member Bones42's Avatar
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    Thumbs up

    "But melting my helmet during training makes me look kewl!"

    I have an academy near me that the instructors will light a bale of hay on fire, then sit on it, to show "they can take the heat". Last time we were out there, they were throwing burning hay on us as we crawled through a room. All in the name of making it more realistic.

    Know why we need laws like this? Because there is always some dumb@$$ out there that is too stupid to know any better. HOPEFULLY, a law might keep someone from getting hurt by these guys. Let's stop being our own worst enemy.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  8. #8
    Senior Member Dalmatian90's Avatar
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    The firemens relief association doesnt want to keep footing the bill and the fire companies dont either. Someone has to pay for these damaged helmets.
    I went to flashover survival in 2001 we had 60 firefighters in our class and every time a team came out their helmet was melted,mostly the visors


    After the other department in town had to replace two sets of turnouts thanks to the Flashover simulator, that's now one of only two classes we're prohibited from taking.

    I don't care about the flashover simulator, haven't been through it, and never cared too -- it just seems to break the basic rule of, "Don't teach don't." If your this hot...don't stay and watch this pretty fire like we're doing right now, get the f out of here. Well, if you're supposed to get out...what are you doing staying there? You're putting the wrong skills in their knees to stay put instead of scrambling.

    (Rollover training I have had, but that's useful to recognize it and use a hoseline to control/extinguish it).

    The other prohibited class we have is the Smoke Divers, which I think is too bad since that's a useful class in skills & confidence and I'd think we could compromise and give members going through it older gear to beat up. (There's no live fire in smoke divers, so already beat up gear is safe).
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  9. #9
    Forum Member firenresq77's Avatar
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    Default

    Originally posted by Weruj1
    I know that the local burn tower we ocassionaly use the temp cant get above 600 I beleive ...........'77 you know for sure ?
    I know there's a limit at ORF, but I can't remember what it is.......

    Now if we are talking about the place to the west that "Ronald" runs, well...... that's a different story

  10. #10
    Forum Member Weruj1's Avatar
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    ah ya "The House That Ronald Burns" ................like waltzing with the devil his self !
    IACOJ both divisions and PROUD OF IT !
    Pardon me sir.. .....but I believe we are all over here !
    ATTENTION ALL SHOPPERS: Will the dead horse please report to the forums.(thanks Motown)
    RAY WAS HERE 08/28/05
    LETHA' FOREVA' ! 010607
    I'm sorry, I haven't been paying much attention for the last 3 hours.....what were we discussing?
    "but I guarentee you I will FF your arse off" from>
    http://www.firehouse.com/forums/show...60#post1137060post 115

  11. #11
    Forum Member firenresq77's Avatar
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    You just have to watch him.......... He's a sneaky bugger. If he thinks you're gettin too cocky, he'll show you that you're really not all that....

  12. #12
    MembersZone Subscriber E229Lt's Avatar
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    Default

    here is one example
    Bad example: This picture is of FF Bart Bradberry of Fort Worth TX. after being pulled out of a second floor fire after running low on air and becoming disoriented.

    Not a training burn and maybe a little hotter than 800 deg.
    Attached Images Attached Images  

  13. #13
    MembersZone Subscriber sconfire's Avatar
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    Dang it LT... you beat me to the punch!
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  14. #14
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    Just wondering... How hot does a aicraft live fire training get?
    To me it seems like it would exceed the 800 degrees by just a tad..especially on hte interior burn part of the class

    But as usual i may be wrong...

  15. #15
    MembersZone Subscriber dmleblanc's Avatar
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    Talking

    I went to flashover survival in 2001 we had 60 firefighters in our class and every time a team came out their helmet was melted,mostly the visors.
    I've been through the flashover survival class a couple of times and we never damaged any gear. One precaution we took, however, was to remove the face shields from our helmets and cover the helmets in aluminum foil. Sometimes the cheapest solutions are the best.

  16. #16
    Temporarily/No Longer Active Cellblock776's Avatar
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    We train firefighters in black-out masks or low visibility and heat so they can make a push through to the fire when needed.
    Sounds like P.O.S.T. training. They teach wrist and arm locks during self defense then spend half the day throwing you all over the mats to get you used to how the holds feel when applied. Then the OC class comes up and you stand there while some yahoo sprays you in the face with Freeze +P because you need to 'know how it feels and how you can work through the pain' when the pepper spray starts flying. To be able to transport prisoners using the electric stun belt you have to first go to class where you will be shocked to your knees with it. So after this you have good reason to get nervous when you are told that you will spend the next day at the firing range qualifying on revolver, shotgun and rifle. So are they going to shoot me with each weapon so I 'know how it feels and can work through the pain' like all the classes before this?
    I think most of the fire training is just learning to overcome your fears and understand that with the proper mindset you will be able to recognise the dangers you may encounter and work through them when the going gets tough. Anyone who has been in the military and gone through the gas chamber can also see parallels here. It teaches the trainee that his gear will protect him when in these environments if used properly.
    I'm not in favor of training burns which are so hot that gear is damaged. The last flashover training I attended, the instructer had us all remove our helmet visors and then we used alumimin foil to cover our helments to protect them from any extreme temps we may be exposed to while inside. LOL. We looked like a bunch of extras out of an old Buck Rodgers movie. We got a few good photos that night. I'll see if I can find one to post.
    Be Safe,

  17. #17
    MembersZone Subscriber mcaldwell's Avatar
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    In the old days, we used to run our live burns too hot. We lost more than a few helmets, dozens of visors, and even a few sets of turnout gear (reflective striping and patches melted right off).

    We don't do that anymore. The obvious personal hazards aside, the financial cost was definitely more than we could afford.

    I think 800 degrees is more than adequate for realistic training.
    Never argue with an Idiot. They drag you down to their level, and then beat you with experience!

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  18. #18
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    On a tangent, I've been through the Connecticut fire academy's flashover simulator. They provide you with their own helmets now, so nobody's helmets get melty. And the simulator is set up in such a way that the students are kept below the level of the fire itself, which is kind of on a stage. They stay below the heat that way. We get to see how the CO and other gasses start to burn, and experience the conditions leading up to a flashover. An instructor is in control of a chimney on the room, and keeps the room from actually flashing.

    In my group, none of the helmets they gave us were damaged, and none of our gear was any worse for wear. It was educational, but I didn't feel it was destructive or dangerous. I think the days of them cooking the students there is past.

    On the other hand, the chief still had to sign a waiver about damage to our gear...

    Andrew

  19. #19
    IACOJ Agitator Adze39's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Rittner
    On a tangent, I've been through the Connecticut fire academy's flashover simulator. They provide you with their own helmets now, so nobody's helmets get melty. And the simulator is set up in such a way that the students are kept below the level of the fire itself, which is kind of on a stage. They stay below the heat that way. We get to see how the CO and other gasses start to burn, and experience the conditions leading up to a flashover. An instructor is in control of a chimney on the room, and keeps the room from actually flashing.

    In my group, none of the helmets they gave us were damaged, and none of our gear was any worse for wear. It was educational, but I didn't feel it was destructive or dangerous. I think the days of them cooking the students there is past.

    On the other hand, the chief still had to sign a waiver about damage to our gear...

    Andrew
    And those who do take their own helmets in, they make them take off any visors or lights or rubber bands...anything that is not "part" of the actual helmet itself.

    Like Dal mentioned with the rollover, they do have the students use a hoseline to knock back the rollover. They rarely let the room actually flash.
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  20. #20
    Senior Member Dalmatian90's Avatar
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    Have to say it's been about 3 years since I last saw a class coming out of the trailer. Sounds like they have improved things a bit since then.
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