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  1. #1
    Forum Member backdraft663's Avatar
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    Default What would ya do?

    What would you do if your the officer in charge and you get toned out for a structure fire at a gun shop, upon arrival you find a structure fully involved with alot of small explosions. what would you do? Any more info needed? Im looking more of attacking procedures.
    Ryan

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    You gain strength, courage, and confidence by every experience in which you really stop to look fear in the face. You must do the thing which you think you cannot do. -Eleanor Roosevelt

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  2. #2
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    DOT ERG Class 1.1D. Should be a fantastic start to your Size up. This fire would get the same treatment of any “Fully involved” Commercial building. Assuming there is no immediate life hazards. I would drag a 2 ˝ inch hand line off the rig put on my coco sipping mittens and get comfortable..
    “Just when you think something is made to be Idiot Proof. They go a head and make a better Idiot”

  3. #3
    Forum Member stm4710's Avatar
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    Bullets in a fire dont go off like in a gun,they explode all around not in one direction..............so I have been told by a COJ---I still wouldnt wanna find out though!

    What time of the day is it?
    I dont suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.

  4. #4
    MembersZone Subscriber sconfire's Avatar
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    Bullets in a fire dont go off like in a gun,they explode all around not in one direction..............so I have been told by a COJ
    I am not doubting any COJ but I can tell you from experience that they CAN and WILL at times fire with enough force to do serious harm or cause death.

    We had a house fire with a arsenal inside. Fellow had tons of ammo... mostly in metal military flip lid boxes. Some of them were open and on a concrete work bench. These things were going off like fireworks and ricocheting off the concrete walls in the building.

    We find this out AFTER we are inside. 1 guy had a bullet go through his bill on the rear of his leather! Needless to say we got the HELL out of DODGE!

    Point is that YES they can fire just like a gun, only without the accuracy. This probably makes them more dangerous.

    Now to the question that was asked. If I pulled up to this fire then it wouuld strictly be surround and drown... from a distance. Make sure nothing else catches fire and let it burn out until it was thought safe to proceed closer.

    It is a Catch 22 no matter which way you look at it!
    Last edited by sconfire; 02-08-2004 at 09:28 PM.
    Always remember the CHARLESTON 9

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    North Charleston and American LaFrance Fire Museum
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  5. #5
    MembersZone Subscriber ullrichk's Avatar
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    And since every action has an equal and opposite, you get two projectiles for the price of one - bullet AND casing (Sporting goods store, 1991).

    I'll stand behind my 1000 gal. of water and deck gun it, thank you.
    ullrichk
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  6. #6
    MembersZone Subscriber sconfire's Avatar
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    And since every action has an equal and opposite, you get two projectiles for the price of one - bullet AND casing
    Excellent point!
    Always remember the CHARLESTON 9

    Captain Grant Mishoe, Curator of History
    North Charleston and American LaFrance Fire Museum
    "You'll never know where you're going until you remember where you came from"
    www.legacyofheroes.org
    www.firehistory.org
    www.sconfire.com

  7. #7
    Temporarily/No Longer Active Cellblock776's Avatar
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    I would probably cry at the thought of all the lost guns. Upon returning to the station would put the flag at half mast.

  8. #8
    Forum Member firenresq77's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Cellblock776
    I would probably cry at the thought of all the lost guns. Upon returning to the station would put the flag at half mast.
    Go figure.......

  9. #9
    Forum Member stm4710's Avatar
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    I would probably cry at the thought of all the lost guns. Upon returning to the station would put the flag at half mast.
    Now that is a truly shocking and unexpected statment.....ehhh Rusty...Rusty Shackleford?

    fireresq77.....the loss of those guns still wouldnt make up for the loss of the Alan Parsons Progect!

    Seriously though.......
    If it were day time I would ensure all are out and drown it. If it were night just protect exposures and let it burn..........your not saveing much and I wouldnt worry about a life hazard unless its cellblocks 24 hours kill-a-red gun shop.
    I dont suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.

  10. #10
    Member MalteseMonster's Avatar
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    I'll stand behind my 1000 gal. of water and deck gun it, thank you.

    AMEN!!!!
    Ain't Skeerd
    Half Leather Forever....

  11. #11
    Forum Member RescuHoppy7's Avatar
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    I asked this in another post and I'm sure I'll get a similar answer but:
    I would probably cry at the thought of all the lost guns. Upon returning to the station would put the flag at half mast.
    WHAT IS YOUR PROBLEM??
    NYS FF1/AEMT-CC
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    "You stopped being in charge when I showed up"

  12. #12
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    Originally posted by RescuHoppy7
    I asked this in another post and I'm sure I'll get a similar answer but:


    WHAT IS YOUR PROBLEM??
    Same answer that stm4710 gave you the last time.

  13. #13
    Forum Member RescuHoppy7's Avatar
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    Oh I know I just feel it needs to be asked everytime a dumb comment is posted by CellBlockHead
    NYS FF1/AEMT-CC
    IAEP Local 152
    "You stopped being in charge when I showed up"

  14. #14
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    Point is that YES they can fire just like a gun, only without the accuracy. This probably makes them more dangerous.
    If you know anything, anything at all, about ammunition, you would know that it is physically impossible for the scenario you are describing to happen.

    A handgun round or a rifle round is a lead projectile, fitted inside a brass or aluminum casing, with a load of powder inside. There is a primer which ignites the powder, which ignites rapidly and propels the projectile out of the casing. The bullet works like a bullet because the force is concentrated inside the barrel of the gun.

    A shotgun round is different. It is anywhere from one to alot of projectiles (depending on the type of round) packed into a plastic casing. There is a fabric wad placed between the projectiles and the charge. When the primer causes the powder to deflagrate, it pushes the wad up, which pushes the projectiles out of the barrel.

    A gun barrel is rifled. That means there are grooves machined inside the barrel which cause the bullet to spin. The barrel is also designed to funnel the force of the rapid ignition of powderin one direction. Both of these actions causes the round to be lethal. A shotgun barrel may or may not be rifled.

    To envision this, picture a football being thrown in a spiral. If the ball was not spinning, it would not go anywhere near as far or as fast.

    A round in a fire will do a couple of things. First, the casing will be weakened in a fire, causing it to rupture. This will mean the force of the deflagration of the powder will be funneled to the rupture point and it will not be concentrated solely on pushing the round out of the casing. Secondly, if the round does come out of the casing, there is no barrel to make it spin. It has no force to fly anywhere. It may pop up in the air, but it will not go any distance with any force.

    A handgun round, such as a 9mm, travels about 1000ft. per second. The force of a 150 or so grain round travelling at that speed will make i penetrate things. A 150 grain round travelling at the speeds it would reach coming out of a ruptured casing with no gun barrel would not go through a piece of paper.

    If a round went through that guy's helmet brim, somebody shot at him, because it is impossible for it to have happened from a round in a fire.

  15. #15
    MembersZone Subscriber sconfire's Avatar
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    I can only tell you what I saw first hand. I am quite aware of the rifled barrel information... hence my comment on no accuracy. Maybe I should have stated that instead of the "JUST" like a gun theory.

    These rounds that were going off were in a metal box with a metal lid on it. I saw what I saw and witnessed it first hand.
    Always remember the CHARLESTON 9

    Captain Grant Mishoe, Curator of History
    North Charleston and American LaFrance Fire Museum
    "You'll never know where you're going until you remember where you came from"
    www.legacyofheroes.org
    www.firehistory.org
    www.sconfire.com

  16. #16
    Member MalteseMonster's Avatar
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    I have also witnessed bullets popping off, Although I haven't seen one go through a helmet... I could see it being potentially dangerous...Right up there with can goods and spray paint.....
    Ain't Skeerd
    Half Leather Forever....

  17. #17
    Member RedBank24's Avatar
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    We had a house fire back in the early 90's where the owner was literally a gun nut. He had two bedrooms full of firearms and ammunition. When the ammo started cooking off, the people outside knew it almost as quick as those of us inside did. Projectiles broke the window, and several spent bullets and casings were found in the front driveway. During overhaul we found numerous places where bullets and casings struck the wall in the room. To my knowledge, none were handgun rounds...most were long rifle (.223, .30-06, and these huge chunks of lead for the .458 the owner had)

    I seriously doubt it would have injured anyone further than a bruise or so thru the turnouts, but without a doubt these stored cartridges not only went off, but played Elvis and left the building. Maltese mentioned the paint cans...I'd much rather face bullets like we did than paint cans.


    As for the question "What would you do?" The building is fully involved, the gunpowder is accelerating the fire, you have to figure that there is a pretty significant amount of bulk gunpower, cleaning solvents, etc at work as well. This is a job for the deck gun, with protection lines being pulled if there is an exposure problem.
    Last edited by RedBank24; 02-09-2004 at 02:34 AM.

  18. #18
    MembersZone Subscriber ullrichk's Avatar
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    Originally posted by GeorgeWendtCFI


    A round in a fire will do a couple of things. First, the casing will be weakened in a fire, causing it to rupture. This will mean the force of the deflagration of the powder will be funneled to the rupture point and it will not be concentrated solely on pushing the round out of the casing. Secondly, if the round does come out of the casing, there is no barrel to make it spin. It has no force to fly anywhere. It may pop up in the air, but it will not go any distance with any force.
    I'm not sure I buy that entirely. You assume that the case will rupture, but the chief of a neighboring department had a couple of casings (.223 as I recall) on his desk from the sporting goods store that had not ruptured, but were slightly swelled - and missing their projectile. One did have an impressive knot just below the neck (it looked like someone had shoved a marble into the shell and then re-formed the neck).

    The purpose of the barrel is to confine the force of the explosion and propel the bullet in the desired direction. I offer that the neck of an unruptured shell casing can do just that. Rifling has less to do with power than accuracy as any muzzle loader enthusiast will tell you. Shotgun slugs (usually) shoot through unrifled barrels as well.

    I do not deny that a round cooking off will not carry the full force of one fired from a gun, but I am not ready to downplay the danger just yet, either.
    ullrichk
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  19. #19
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    I wouldnt be worried as much about the gun shell's as much as I would about the stock of gun powder in bulk...

  20. #20
    Senior Member hotboy's Avatar
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    Funny you asked, one night about 7 years ago we got dispatched for an automobile fire at the police station. Upon arrival we heard simultaneous(I think thats spelled right)popping, one of the police officers came over stating"its my car and the back seat is filled with ammo(bullets) they were popping for a good 10-15 minutes we had stood across the street with 2 1/2 and basically drowned the vehicle.
    as far as structure are concerned I would definately rule out an interior attack.
    If we don't do it nobody else will!!!!

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