Thread: 6" hose

  1. #1
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Saginaw, Tx
    Posts
    81

    Default 6" hose

    Does anyone out there run 6" hose on any engine. I have recently seen an increase in number of articles written that mention engines with 6" hose. Question: Does using 6" hose cause any problems with departments utilizing 4 or 5 inch hose? This is probably just an adapter problem. Also, in comparison with 5" hose, how much 6" could be loaded into a hosebed that hold 1500' of 5"?

  2. #2
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Wheaton IL
    Posts
    1,765

    Default

    My first question would be how's your water supply? Then, how big are your pumps?
    My first reaction is that it isn't needed, unless your on an industrial fire brigade or a petro chem plant. If you have huge leadouts it may be of some use. For fittings and appliances it is just a matter of money. Most everyone makes 6" fittings and adapters.
    I would consider a hose tender to transport the hose. A medium to large rig with a big hose reel that could carry the appliances and close to a mile of hose. Lets face it, you won't be using it much, perhaps your regional EMA / ESDA could actually own and maintain it.
    Keep in mind that 1 100' length will have 146.8 gallons in it and weigh 1,226 lbs.

  3. #3
    Forum Member
    DepChief03's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Leading the way
    Posts
    60

    Default

    Wow!! Using 6" hose, I hope you have some Olympic weightlifters on your roster!! I know from switching from 4" to 5" there was a noticable weight difference in handling the hose. I could only image that six would be a bear. I too would check into the water supply. The only reason we went from four to five is because we got a new rig and went from 1000GPM to 1500GPM and that kinda knocked out the four inch. I can tell you, that every guy in the house would much rather deal with the four than the five.

  4. #4
    Forum Member
    firenresq77's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2000
    Location
    Northwest Ohio
    Posts
    5,213

    Default

    We've been using 5" for years and I doubt we will switch to 6" anytime soon. In fact, we just got our sister station switching from 4" to 5" hose within the last 2-3 years. As was said earlier, make sure you have the waterflow capabilities before you buy it...... and start working out more, too!!

  5. #5
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Location
    MA
    Posts
    157

    Default

    Spring, TX, Seabrook TX, and Stafford, TX are all municipal departments using 6" hose for supply lines. Spring has massive 6" hose tenders and runs 5" on their quints, Seabrook has a 6" hose tender/heavy rescue almost identical to Spring's, and Stafford runs with a split load of 5" and 6" on all their engines. There are more out there if you look around.

    We strongly considered 6" for our all-rural department, but recently decided to switch to 5" instead and simply buy twice as much. It was sort of a toss up, but in the end it came down to tactical flexibility.

    Our new engines will have 3,500gpm pumps, a 2,000gpm and a 1,250gpm deck gun each, and dual beds for a mile of 5" hose per truck. Having the trucks built identically will allow for flexibility, simplicity, and commonality of operations and training.

  6. #6
    Forum Member
    Weruj1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 1999
    Location
    NW Ohio
    Posts
    7,857

    Default

    We have only one vehicle with 4" still on it, I think it is about the same to handle and I know that with 6" hose there is even less friction loss, but way to big and way to pricey, but I bet it would get you oodles of water.
    IACOJ both divisions and PROUD OF IT !
    Pardon me sir.. .....but I believe we are all over here !
    ATTENTION ALL SHOPPERS: Will the dead horse please report to the forums.(thanks Motown)
    RAY WAS HERE 08/28/05
    LETHA' FOREVA' ! 010607
    I'm sorry, I haven't been paying much attention for the last 3 hours.....what were we discussing?
    "but I guarentee you I will FF your arse off" from>
    http://www.firehouse.com/forums/show...60#post1137060post 115

  7. #7
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Nov 1999
    Posts
    820

    Default

    My volunteer department in Stafford, Texas runs 3 front line Engine Co.'s, 1 Tower Co., 1 Heavy Rescue Co., 1 Squad-Quick Attack Unit, 2 EMS First Responder Units and 2 Chiefs Vehicles. We utilize a split load of both 5" and 6" LDH.

    Apparatus:
    Engines 1, 2 and 3 all carry 1000' of 5" with Stortz connections and also 800' of 6" with Stortz connections per Engine Co. Each has atleast 2 LDH intakes with the Chauffeur side intake being setup for 5" and the Officer side being setup for 6". Each Engine Co. carries 2- 1-3/4" preconnects, 2- 2" preconnects, 1- 2-1/2" preconnect and a removable 1250GPM deck gun/monitor. Tower 1 carries 800' of 5" with Stortz connections with the same 5" Chauffeur side and 6" Officer side intake arraingement. Each Engine Co. and the Tower Co. all carry 5" to 6" Stortz adapters in the Chauffeurs compartment for adapting to whatever the situation calls for. All of our neighboring departments we run with on boxes use 5" so the adapters are the fix no matter whos city we area in or who has hose on the ground. If the we know the Tower is going to operate going in, it will lay its own 5" supply line into the fire. An Engine Co. will then lay a 6" line from it back to the plug. The Engine Co. then hooks up to the plug and pumps the lines to the Tower Co. at the fire building. This is both nice and necessary as our Tower Co. has two 1000GPM platform monitors, two 1250GPM stagger mounted deck guns and a portable 1250GPM monitor. If you need the fire flow all you have to do is be able to get the water to the rig beacuse it can flow it. If the need arises for very big water, the evolution for supplying the Tower Co. is for an Engine Co. to lay a 6" from a plug to the Tower and then keep going to the next plug. That gives 2-6" supply lines to the Tower from 2 plugs plus the 5" line it layed on its own coming into the fire. This is possible as every hose equipped apparatus will lay its biggest line off the steamer connection (When necessary) and place a ball valve on one of the side discharges of the plug to facilitate another line being supplied without having to turn off the plug or go to another one further away. In addition we have outfitted our Tower Co. for elevated freeway incidents. We have a long stretch of elevated freeway with NO water supply what so ever and very heavy truck traffic. This means either laying 4000+ feet of hose or coming up with an alternative. After realizing this and seeing a neighboring departments incident on an elevated roadway with no water supply and 70+ vehicles involved in an MVA with FIRE, we decided to get adapters specially fitted that would attach to our monitors when the tips are dropped off and have the right connection for our LDH. These adapters are simple 3-1/2" thread to 5" Stortz connections. The evolution is for the Tower Co. to stay on the service road and raise its platform to the elevated roadway surface (With the monitors placed as level as possible with the roadway). With the tips dropped off, the adapters are placed on the monitors and the attack pumper on the elevated roadway then lays from the monitors of the platform to the fire.

    Water Supply System:
    Our city is very lucky to have a water supply system with 300' plug spacing and very ample size water mains in our entire first due area. Due to our 60% commercial and industrial setting, we have to have sufficient water and our water department is ahead of the curve. All new plugs being installed are coming with Stortz steamer connections and the older ones are being retro fitted with them. Additionally all MD complexes are required to have complex plugs with Stortz steamer connections. We have an over abundence (If thats possible) of above ground water storage and they are adding more. A close relationship with our water department has paid HUGE dividends when it comes to getting 4000GPM flows at 03:00hrs without having to beg, borrow and plead. We recently had an ISO survey done and the evaluators couldn't believe the flows from our hydrants even with others on the same main wide open.

    New Pumper:
    Our new pumper on order to replace Engine 1 (An '84 Pirsch) will be capable of 3000GPM flows by handlines, master streams and a 50' Tele-Boom (CAFS capable). This rig also will carry 1000' of 5" and 800' of 6" LDH, 600' of lightweight 2-1/2" hose, 2- 1-3/4" handlines, 2- 2" handlines, 1- 2-1/2" handline, 1- preconnected portable 1250GPM monitor on a bomb line and the 1000GPM boom all with CAFS capability.

    Hose Differences:
    As nice as it is to have 6" when its burning, it is a pain in the #$% when it comes to loading it. LOL. Don't kid yourself or listen to someone who says there is no weight difference. It is a substantial difference. The Stortz connections on 6" LDH is also very, very different as it uses a 3 lug design instead of the 2 lug design of 5" Stortz connections. In addition, 6" connections are very, very tight fits and do require atleast 2 people with wrenches to break and connect. It can be overcome with training and having your people become familiar with the equipment.

    The moral of the story is if you have the water supply system in your territory, you owe it to your community and yourself to use it. Its just a matter of getting it out of the ground and to the fire.

    Stay low and move it in.
    Last edited by STATION2; 02-12-2004 at 02:35 PM.
    Stay low and move it in.

    Be safe.


    Larry

  8. #8
    Junior Member

    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Caseyville,IL
    Posts
    16

    Talking

    And I thought I was the only nut to suggest using 6" hose!
    Does anyone have any flow data comparing 6" to 4&5" hose? I
    have to agree that working with the water dept. pays off as
    our water system is capable of such flows, and they continue to improve it. One of the departments on our water system was evaluated,
    and maxed out on points in water with ISO.

  9. #9
    Forum Member
    firespec35's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    Milford MI USA
    Posts
    213

    Default

    I don't even think 6" is necessecary in an industrial setting. I work on an industrial Fire Brigade and we still roll with 4". Granted we have 150 psi at the hydrant (2 stationary diesel fire pumps)

  10. #10
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Posts
    355

    Question

    Larry

    How often and under what circumstances do you put the 6" in the street?

  11. #11
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Nov 1999
    Posts
    820

    Default

    LOL. The guys hope we never lay it as it is a pain to load. As for when, thats another matter. With 60% of our first due area being industrial, we have lots and lots and lots of warehouses. From the mom & pop small rows of warehouses to the big 400,000 square feet warehouses. These are the reaons for the 6" hose. Throw in about 16 apartment and townhouse complexes of 2 and 3 story construction, some with and some without sprinklers and you can understand why the 6". Do we use it often? Not at all. 5" is laid on all SFD residential fires (We also place ball valves on the side discharges for an additional 5" should it be needed). If its a medium to large warehouse or an advanced fire in an apartment or townhouse complex and ladder pipes/master streams are possible, then its used. Any other questions, feel free to ask.

    Stay low and move it in.
    Stay low and move it in.

    Be safe.


    Larry

  12. #12
    Forum Member
    CaptOldTimer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 1999
    Location
    Virginia
    Posts
    7,242

    Exclamation

    HOLY MOLY!!!!!


    What is going to be next? 7 inch, 8 inch or should we just go for the foot. 12 inch hose line??

    I would think that you be drafting from the river or ocean and using a 2000 or better fire pump to make the most from this baby.

    If you have a good water system then 4 inch LDH will work very well. If the water isn't that great or hydrants are far apart and then the 5 inch will work very well.

    We looked at 3, 3-1/2, 4 and 5 when we switched up from the old faithful 2-1/2. We went to 4 for the ease on handling and what it can deliver. 1000 GPM with a friction loss of around 8 to 10 pounds per 100 feet. That is great.

    Anything about that will be a killer on the members. You will need a hose reel to handle the 6 incher. I don't think it would be prudent to try to hand load this or even work with it unloaded. Once you load this sucker, the road IS CLOSED!!! With 4 inch you can run over it providing you take care and stay from the couplings.

    Man, laying a long hydrant suction is what you will be doing.

    Naw, I vote for the 4 or 5 incher and nothing any bigger.

    The bigger the hose always doesn't get the prize!



    Stay Safe and Well out there......


  13. #13
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Nov 1999
    Posts
    820

    Default

    CaptOldTimer, I agree that bigger is not always better. In our case, we felt with our needed fire flows that it was a nice option for the first arriving officer to have at his disposal should it be needed. We consider it another tool in our vast toolbox. And we all know, there are different tools for different tasks. As for the handling of it by our members, your right. It is not a very simple task of picking it up. They however look at it as if its needed, its needed. How many fires have you and I made that going in looked worse than it was. You had someone, or you did yourself, lay a LDH supply line and when it was all said and done it was put out with tank water and the supply line was not needed. In our case, we have 2-1/2", 3", 5" and 6" at the disposal of our members. More tools in the toolbox. Just some thoughts.

    P.S.: You mention 7", 8" or 10" LDH hose. LOL. There is a refinery fire department in the greater Houston area that runs with 5000' of 10" hose on a hose tender due to their needs.

    Stay low and move it in.
    Stay low and move it in.

    Be safe.


    Larry

  14. #14
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Posts
    355

    Wink

    Hey cap.,
    Wouldn't you love to drop 800 of 6" in the street just before shift change?

  15. #15
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Nov 1999
    Posts
    820

    Default

    I know of a department that layed in excess of 2000' of 6" hose for a drill. They left it for their Duty Crew to pick up when they came on duty. LOL. Just a thought.

    Stay low and move it in.
    Stay low and move it in.

    Be safe.


    Larry

  16. #16
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Sugar Land FD, Texas
    Posts
    21

    Default

    Larry, that would not be a certain department north of Houston would it? I heard that the volunteers had the drill during the weekly training one night. They left it where it laid overnight for the duty crew to pick it up the next morning.
    "Dont forget to wear your Reed"
    "When you buy junk, you now own junk"

    J.Brown

  17. #17
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Rural Iowa
    Posts
    3,106

    Default

    Originally posted by STATION2
    Apparatus:
    Engines 1, 2 and 3 all carry 1000' of 5" with Stortz connections and also 800' of 6" with Stortz connections per Engine Co.
    How do you load hose? Reel or hosebed? If hose bed, do you flake front/real or right/left (on edge)?

  18. #18
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Nov 1999
    Posts
    820

    Default

    Rear hose bed of Engines 1, 2 and 3 is like this as you look at the hose bed from the rear.

    Left bed: 800' of 6"

    Divider

    Middle bed: 1000' of 5"

    Divider

    Narrow right bed: 250' of lightweight 2-1/2" hose pre-connected to discharge for use as a big handline, apartment lay, supplying portable master stream or a nurse line.

    As for loading it, we do not use a reel. It is loaded in a flat load that starts on the left of each bed and then goes to the right. Just some thoughts.

    Stay low and move it in.
    Stay low and move it in.

    Be safe.


    Larry

  19. #19
    Forum Member
    Fire304's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    At the Helm
    Posts
    1,174

    Default

    How much water can 6" move?

    4" moves 1000gpm @ 20 psi friction loss
    5" moves 1800gpm @ 20 psi fl
    6" moves 3000gpm @ 21 psi fl

    Assuming you have the water supply to provide 1000gpm of constant flow, that you are using 200psi test "supply" LDH (max safe working pressure of 180psi), and that you wish to keep 20 psi residual you can lay...

    800' of 4" between relay pumpers
    2300' of 5"
    5700' of 6"

    Yes, you could lay a mile of 6" between relay pumpers and flow 1000gpm though it.

    "My hydrants are 500' apart, so I don't need big LDH"

    Well, how big and how clean are you mains? How far do you have to go to hit the next pipe? Kinda sucks when you tap a hydrant and have all the water you need until the 2nd due truck taps the same water main, suddenly your residual drops to a vacuum and you have to shut lines down.

    What if you have to go a 1/2 mile to hit a different branch of water? If you have a pumper at the hydrant and one at the fire you can cover 2600feet (nearly a 1/2 mile) with 4" and flow 550gpm, with 5" you can flow 900gpm, if you were blessed to have 6" you'd be able to flow 1500gpm.

    Put another way, for the same distance 4" @ 1000gpm requires 3 relay pumpers in the middle. 5" at 1500gpm require 1 relay. 6" means 1500 gpm and no relay. Drop a relay in there and you get 2200gpm!

    My point? The bigger the hose the less manpower and equipment needed to cover moderate distances.

    Here' an excellent source for friction loss of all sizes of hose up to 12"...
    http://www.tamparubber.com/mainpres.htm
    Btw, 12" you can flow 3000gpm for 22,000 feet. That's over 4 miles of hose w/o a relay! The real question is where are you going to find the linebackers to load the stuff back on the truck, hehehe
    ______________________________ __________________
    If you are new to posting please CLICK HERE for an essential lesson
    ______________________________ __________________
    A bad day in the boat is better than a good day in the office. And in my case the office is a boat!

    IACOJ Fire Boat 1

  20. #20
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Nov 1999
    Posts
    820

    Default

    We cover an area that 10.2 square miles and is comprosed of 50% Industrial, 30% commercial and 20% residential. We have a water department that is very, very (Did I say very) responsive to our needs and the needs of the community. We have an absolutley phenominal above ground storage capability (They are actually building another 1 million gallon water tower next to our Station 2 currently for a total of 7), water mains that are relatively new in our target hazard areas (Too many 250,000 Sq. Ft. + warehouses) in the 24" and up category, added 80 plugs for us where we asked for them in the last year and have on average 300' plug spacing. Your points about the 2nd due hitting the next plug on the main are valid, however when the 6" is dropped it is typically on very large warehouses and industrial type complexes that reach from one street to another (A block) with seperate primary feeders running along each respective street. We also have atleast 2 large commercial complexes where there are not plugs within the complex. The nearest plugs are outside the complex on a main roadway (Opposite side, go figure) and the distance to the rear of the complex is in the 2500' to 3000' range with very respectable fire flow requirements. You mention the relay pumping needs of the different size hose. That was a consideration for us in these types of complexes. We can lay one 6" to the rear of the complex and meet our attack needs where other departments will either be laying multiple 2500'+ 5" lines with the ensuing time it takes (They would need atleast a 2nd alarm for enough Engine Co.'s with 1000' LDH to equal 2 supply lines of that length) or never have enough water to meet the needed flows. Just some thoughts.

    Stay low and move it in.
    Stay low and move it in.

    Be safe.


    Larry

  21. #21
    Forum Member
    DeputyChiefGonzo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2000
    Location
    Somewhere between genius and insanity!
    Posts
    13,584

    Default

    Originally posted by STATION2
    I know of a department that layed in excess of 2000' of 6" hose for a drill. They left it for their Duty Crew to pick up when they came on duty. LOL. Just a thought.

    Stay low and move it in.
    bahstids!
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

  22. #22
    Forum Member
    Fire304's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    At the Helm
    Posts
    1,174

    Default

    Originally posted by CaptainGonzo


    bahstids!
    LOL Capt

    That's why I like mutual aid fires so much, we come in fight the fire, pick up our tools and leave

    Station2 wow, sounds like you've got a great water system to begin with. In our town the average age for water main is approaching 100 years old (typical for this part of the country) and that creates big problems every time we have a big water fire. We nearly always collapse a water main somewhere in town if we tap a 2nd plug, and even when we don't the pipes have so much crud inside of them most of the 12" mains are less than 8" inside. If we get into a major defensive operation we can flow 5000-6000gpm with our master streams on the 1st alarm. If the mains can't support over 3000 it would be nice to have that portable water main to lay down the road.
    ______________________________ __________________
    If you are new to posting please CLICK HERE for an essential lesson
    ______________________________ __________________
    A bad day in the boat is better than a good day in the office. And in my case the office is a boat!

    IACOJ Fire Boat 1

  23. #23
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Eastern Central Kansas
    Posts
    845

    Default

    6" That is some big LDH. My department has 4"LDH and some other depts around here have 5" We have adapters for various sizes, We just put 3" hand lines on all of our aparatus, They are loaded in the rear at 100 or 200 in lenght. It takes 2 or 3 guys to hold it down.
    FF I
    FF II
    Hazmat Operations
    EMT-B
    ---------------------------------------------------

    The light at the end of the tunnel has been temporarly shut off due to the current work load. The Mangement

    When all else fails USE DUCT-TAPE!!!

    My views posted in this fourm are my personal views only and do not reflect on any agencies that I am afiliated with.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts

Log in

Click here to log in or register