1. #1
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    Default Question on scenario what to do...

    Was thinking of a drill I attended, me & my partner were doing a search of a 1 story Commercial building. My dept gets abandoned or about to be demolished building and we smoke them out with fake smoke and practice ventilation techniques,overhaul,breaching,search and rescue, this list goes on...but back to my story...we were doing a search for victims...completed a right hand search throughout the entire building being fresh out of school we did pretty good until we were on our way out. One of the senior FF's shut my bottle off on me said there was a problem with my pack. I notified my partner but by the end of my sentence my bottle was off...I stopped and tried hittin my partners foot but he kept going while I stopped...the mask sucked to my face and I got that ever dreaded feeling.. I took off my regulator because it was fake smoke, told my partner and continued out the door..outside the senior Firefighter asked me why I removed my mask and siad I'd be dead if I was in a real fire..I said I know that but im not gonna kill myself for a training drill. He walked away and I never got my question answered....What should have I done ?? My vibralert went off but by the end of my sentence I had no air at all I could see the light of the doorway we entered because it was about 10ft a way but what annoyed me was he pretty much scalded me for doing what I did and walked away from me. so what should have I done?? thanks
    Andrew
    Firefighter/EMT
    New Jersey

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    First of all, that guy that just scolded did you and did not really teach you anything; that is pretty poor.
    As for your situation; You don't really want to remove your mask because it protects your face. One option would be to put your face right down onto the floor because as we all know the best place in a fire is on the floor. Literally put your face on that floor and get out quick, assuming you know the way out. If you have a radio I think a mayday might be in order as well.
    That's just one way!

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    Sorry should reword that...I just took off my regulator not my mask..
    Andrew
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    New Jersey

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    Originally posted by Engine58
    Sorry should reword that...I just took off my regulator not my mask..
    Sorry that's my bad, you said regulator in your first post!

    Thats what I can think of right now, there are probably some other avenues to take as well.
    Last edited by firefiftyfive; 02-13-2004 at 12:49 AM.

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    Basically dependending on what type of pack you are using,if your regulator is on the mask like below just undo the regulator and stay low. Keep the mask on.



    If you have the type like below where the regulator is on your chest or stomach area, just undo the coil and put the coil inside your turnout coat."And hope you dont smell too bad". There is enough air or oxygen inside the gear, should give you time to get out safely.
    Last edited by hotboy; 02-13-2004 at 05:38 AM.
    If we don't do it nobody else will!!!!

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    Default 2 cents...

    Sounds like you were using a Scott mask. I would
    have put me head down to the floor like someone
    posted earlier.

    Also, You could have put your gloved hand over the
    Scoot mask to help filter out the smoke.

    Lastly- I am not a big fan of messing with other
    people's SCBA- drill or not. Sure they might fail
    sometime in the future, but that doesnt give me
    the right to mess with your breathing air. Next
    time theat jerk messes with your hoses and/or face
    mask, slap his hand away...seriously.

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    Another option is after you've pulled the regulator off, pull your nomex hood over the opening in the mask and stay low and GO!
    NYS FF1/AEMT-CC
    IAEP Local 152
    "You stopped being in charge when I showed up"

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    PASS ALARM! That is what they are for. Activate it. Your partner would (should) have heard it and figured you were in trouble. Also, follow some basic steps when your air supply stops, first - check the bottle to make sure the valve did not get closed accidentally. There are some bottle valves that can be closed by simply rubbing against the wall. Second, try your red bypass as you might have air but have a regulator problem. These 2 steps should take a total of like 5 seconds. Still no air - put your face down near the floor, then remove regulator and pull hood over the opening. Keep your face at the floor and crawl out. Yes, there's bad sh$t on the floor, but it's better than not breathing at all. Did I say activate PASS alarm?
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    You should have turned the bottle back on and told the guy guy with senioritis to F-off. If the bottle was not opened fully and there was a chance that it could have been banged shut, the first thing to do would be turn it back on. If that is the game he was playing then play. Cracking the red bypass valve should allow some air to free flow and being 10 feet from the door, you probably would have made it. Everything else mentioned here would certainly help.
    Any way you look at it, I would have been in that persons face as soon as I got out. If he just wants to mess with you because you are junior and not offer any help then he is just a jackass and not to be trusted. Have your officer put the senior guy in the middle of a commercial building and shut of his air and see what he does. After all else fails, I'll bet you see his regulator come out. I don't care how much training you have, there is only so long a person can stand having that mask sucked to your face. It has to be one of the worst feelings in the world.

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    Well lets say someone pulled a stunt like that on me they wouldn't wanna see me outside...But like everyone else has said take your regulator off and stay low...I liked the idea of putting your flash hood over the regulator too...

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    Well I'm the FNG around my dept, but here's my opinion.

    What exactly was the problem? Did he tell you? If he just shut off your air - it could of been knocked on something and got closed, turn it back on and keep going.

    If that's not good enough for him - get out. Can't get ahold of your partner, set off your pass, that'll get his attention in a hurry. Taking off the regulator is in my opinion the absolute last resort. If you're only 10 feet from the door grab your partner (don't slap the boot, grab him by the arm) and run like hell. My Training Officer always told me that about a quater of a breath in an 800 degree fire will toast your lungs.

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    It has to be one of the worst feelings in the world.
    Amen brother! Happened to me while fighting a boat fire. Three boats tied side by side in February. Of course the fire was on the third boat out. Regulator froze, no more air. No low air alarm, no warning, just stopped. Ain't nothing like getting across an icy boat with almost 0 visibility and a mask stuck on your face.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Yes we use scott airpacks they are great...but anyways..Yea its a pretty bad feeling I had it done to me when I was an explorer, I yelled at this guy a couple times an told him knock it off but he kept following me turning off my pack my low air alarm went off enough to suck my last breath and tell my partner somethins wrong with my pack..I was quite upset...but when I reached for further guidance throughout the dept I just got well he was trying to teach you a lesson to see what you would do.. I was extremely upset after they told me this because that is the worst feeling in the world!! I was mad to because out of hte group of people me & my partner were the only ones who were doing the search the quickest and most thoroughly... Plus the fact that I'm a bigger guy and I was concerving my air pretty good..was all happy and then he shut my bottle off...I had a few choice words for that guy but me being a rookie still I kept quiet....thanks for the help guys at least when I ask a question here I get alot of responses not just the same ol response that I get when I asked a couple of the senior guys in my dept...which was dont be mad he was just teaching you a lesson and pointed in the direction of me being wrong for taking my regulator off..so thats where my question came in...THEN What was I supposed to do..suffacate for a cold smoke training drill??? I'm sorry but I DONT THINK SO!!
    Andrew
    Firefighter/EMT
    New Jersey

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    First of all, he shouldn't have screwed with your pack. But to add insult to the injury, he shouldn't have walked away without answering the question you asked him.

    So, to sum up, his leadership sucks.

    I'm the training officer for my department. I don't pull that stuff on my firefighters. Ironically, we christened our new smokehouse last night with a rescue drill.

    In the future, depending on your pack, go with the responses above. I personally like the hood over the regulator port on the mask. That's a great idea, easy to accomplish, and provides as much protection as a glove.

    If you have the coil type, then put that bad boy in your coat and beat feet for daylight!

    Not to scold, but it happened last night with us (or more accurately it didn't)...TRIGGER THAT PASS!!
    A grabbed foot may be interpreted as you getting your bearings by your partner. A PASS is what it is...and is unmistakable.

    For our scenarios, I'll pull one firefighter aside as my "training aid" and unless I have something specific in mind, it's up to him to decide when, where, and what the problem is. It keeps my guys on their toes, they don't know what to expect, and its realistic. After all, when was the last time your partner warned you on the way in that he was going to stroke out/run out of air/get trapped etc., etc.

    For "real" fires in the building, the rules are different. But cold smoke training allows you to be creative.

    Your mileage may vary.
    The more you sweat in training, the less you bleed in combat.

    Pain is just weakness leaving the body.

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    A few questions:

    What is this 1 story commercial...is this a taxpayer(strip mall) or large warehouse? If it was a warehouse did you use a searchrope?

    Where you doing the one guy in front of the other holding on to ankle thing? If so that is another issue for another day.

    To the topic at hand:
    I think it started out as a good and realistic drill. But according to your account it would appear the senior man either doesn't know what he is doing or what lesson was to be learned by you.

    Can this happen in a real fire??...YES IT CAN and it is good to drill on it. The first thing to do is not panic. Then try the bypass...if nothing reach back to turn the bottle back on.

    This would teach you to open your bottle fully not just crack it quickly in the rush of the first moments of a fire. This can give you enough air to think you are good but the demand placed on it when you are breathing heavily will outstrip the limited supply you are getting and the vibra-alert will go off.

    If the instructor tells you the bottle IS open and the bypass WON'T work...then you must take the regulator off and put your face on the floor... Use your hood or glove to filter some of the smoke out. DON'T panic...

    Despite what this guy told you taking your regulator off under the above conditions will not kill you!!

    If you have never taken a feed or are a regular smoker you might panic and your breathing rate will increase rapidly bringing in more soot and CO. Not good. Calm down...you won't die if you have to breathe smoke. Firemen did it for 100s of years before, so don't think taking the regulator off will kill you instantly (I've known students I was instructing that thought taking the regulator off in an emergency was not acceptable...only that they didnt realize if they didn't they would suffocate from lack of air!) It would seem this senior guy doesn't really know what he is saying.

    If you are lost and your mask will not work at all or can't get out in a matter of seconds...transmit a MAYDAY message Member lost and out of air message over your handi-talkie and activate your PASS alarm. Look for a window or door Try to figure out where you are and your quickest way out.

    Perhaps this drill wasn't handled correctly but it was a good idea despite this senior mans original intentions.

    As for the replies that state you should never mess with another guys mask during a drill, or you will give him a piece of your mind... or never throw a problem with the mask because they don't have a right to mess with my air or whatever...

    ...IT SHOULD be a MANDATORY drill to throw problems at the guys to see how they will act. Especially probies. When S#@* goes wrong on the firefloor you probably won't "rise to the occasion" You will fall back on your training...if you have never trained on this or other senarios...if you can't think back on how you handled this before...YOU WILL PANIC and quite possibly YOU WILL DIE. NO F*@$ing JOKE!

    "Don't ever let a mans Ghost return to say his training let him down."

    FTM-PTB
    Last edited by FFFRED; 02-13-2004 at 05:48 PM.

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    I had my bottle fully turned on, and we were doing the holding onto the foot thing...I stopped and partner just kept goin this was a small taxpayer store I say about 25x50 with about 2-3 rooms inside. I believe this was the 1st time this guy did instructing like that. Usually these drills go pretty well if run properly..I've learned alot from these drills that we had was learning alot at this one too until this guy pulled that stunt. Also I was trying to turn the bottle back on but he kept pushing my hand out of the way...and kept telling me my pack was broken I cant use it I know sometimes people mean well when they teach but come on...use your common sense. Its funny because I read the forums alot and read magazines etc..and when some of the older guys have questions I give them some other ways to complete the tasks and when they do it they are like wow...how'd a new guy like you learn these things....I just answer them 2 words...Firehouse.com sorry had to add that in
    Andrew
    Firefighter/EMT
    New Jersey

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    E58, I don't think this guy is ready to be a training officer. I wouldn't see anything wrong with it if he turned off your bottle or your main line valve to see how you would react. Of course the right thing for you to do there, is to stay calm and check your regulator and bottle before you just rip off the mask. But repeatedly knocking your hand away and telling you "it's broken, you can't use it" doesn't sound like good training to me. And afterwords, after asking you why you took the mask off, he should have explained to you what he expected you to do. How are you to learn?

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    I just want to echo what Fred said. You CAN eat a little smoke. It isnt healthy and you shouldnt make a habit of it but if its not that thick, nasty "chunky" stuff you should be ok for a minute or two.. Heres another trick if you are on a hoseline and run into mask trouble. It works better with a combo nozzle but a solid bore will do it too. Open the bale and if you have a combo, open it to fog. There is a tremensdous amount of air moving through there. Stick your face right up there and breathe. I dont know if they even teach that anymore but it works.
    IAFF-IACOJ PROUD

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    Another thing to consider..Most newer scotts have a quick connect regulator, just disconnect it and cram the little pig tail in your jacket...Its not the easiest breathing but better than none at all..As Mikey stated the fog stream is a nice way to get a good breath of air for any reason..
    Ain't Skeerd
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    Originally posted by cfdeng3
    You should have turned the bottle back on and told the guy guy with senioritis to F-off. If the bottle was not opened fully and there was a chance that it could have been banged shut, the first thing to do would be turn it back on. If that is the game he was playing then play.
    that would of been the best thing to do,Even though I would not tolerate this type of activity, I think the officer was trying to see what this firefighter's reaction would be if he expired his air. We all know that any airpack you don will give you a warning before your completely out of air. You air supply just doesnt cease. We have week scba inspection. And I still check my bottle before I don. So turning the bottle on(again)should be your first action.
    Last edited by hotboy; 02-14-2004 at 12:45 AM.
    If we don't do it nobody else will!!!!

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