1. #51
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    [QUOTE]It may be a tired argument, but it is true. By your own post you admit that many are being hired to replace retirements. So what in the heck is the point? Why should you give the town the money to do what they are going to do anyway?[/QUOTE

    I understand. I personally think there should be language in the legislation that prohibits that practice. If the language were written in such a manner, the Act would get better results. And, no it is not true that it will not put any new firefighters on the street. It is a popular mantra by the neo-cons, but it isn't so.



    Don't complain about the high rate of taxation then. (Not personally directed)
    I don't complain about my taxes. You see it takes money to operate a government. You know what is worse than a "tax and spend liberal", a "spend without taxing conservative". If only Dubya spent the money more wisely.
    "We shouldn't be opening firehouses in Baghdad and closing them in New York City."

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    This is the same tired arguement used against the COPS program of the nineties. The number may be in dispute, but to say no additional firefighters will be on the streets is BS.
    What streets will they be protecting?????

    From the AP wire:

    Two Democratic lawmakers charged Monday that New York and other big cities have been shortchanged by the federal homeland security grant program that targets local fire departments.

    Reps. Carolyn Maloney and Joseph Crowley said that funds from the FIRE Act grant program are being spent disproportionately on small towns that tend to be Republican, even though large cities face a greater terrorism threat.

    They said Montana received $9.07 per person in FIRE Act funds in fiscal year 2003, compared with 9 cents per person in New York City.

    "City firefighters will meet the terror threat first, but they are being thought of last when it comes to homeland security funds from Washington," said Maloney, who chairs the Task Force on Homeland Security for the House Democratic Caucus.

    The program was created in 2000 and was expanded after the terrorist attacks of 2001. President Bush has proposed cutting the funding for the program from $746 million to $500 million in his 2005 budget.

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    Reps. Carolyn Maloney and Joseph Crowley said that funds from the FIRE Act grant program are being spent disproportionately on small towns that tend to be Republican, even though large cities face a greater terrorism threat
    Send these two a letter explaining that the FIRE Act grant program in 2003 was to provide basic Firefighting needs, not homeland security. It's pretty scary when someone who chairs a committee does not know what the money they are going after is for.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  4. #54
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    Gotta side with Bones on this one. If they were to complain about not getting their share of SAFER money they would have a legitimate argument.
    "We shouldn't be opening firehouses in Baghdad and closing them in New York City."

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    Default FIREPAC

    Is VOLUNTARY
    YOU have the right to vote for whomever you choose at election time.
    THE IAFF supports candidates that are supportive of it, both Democratic and Republican.
    DON'T LIKE THE WAY THE UNION IS RUN? Then get involved at the local level and work for change...
    So if fire and EMS are not the "biggest part" of any firefighters political agenda what are ?

    I am interested in why a fireman from Tennessee would support a President who is CLEARLY against your right to sit across from your employer to negotiate things like pay and benefits.
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    So if fire and EMS are not the "biggest part" of any firefighters political agenda what are ?
    Safety of my country. Fair taxes. A person who makes a decision and stands by it - not changing his mind because it won't get him votes. Then again, I'm not in the IAFF, I'm only a "guest" in this thread.

    ps - thanks though for the information that was passed back and forth on this thread. It's nice to see adults exchanging opinions.
    Last edited by Bones42; 02-25-2004 at 10:48 AM.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  7. #57
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    Then again, I'm not in the IAFF, I'm only a "guest" in this thread.
    Bones, you're a welcome "Member" of all the FH forums, as we all are. Fact is, the vast majority of firefighters in this country are volunteers and could have a much greater impact in a national election than the paid/IAFF members alone. While there are many issues that the two differ on, it's my opinion, the issues which have the greatest impact on both firefighter and civilian safety are our common ground.

    DHS and those who put it together have stated the importance of first responders in this country, yet they don't seem to grasp the needs when it comes to mitigation of a major MCI. I see the focus on prevention, law enforcement and intel sucking in 90% of all funds and very little going towards the actual preparedness "AFTER" another strike on our shores.

    I often come across as saying "send it all to the FDNY, this is not my goal. I only use the example out of knowledge of the area. Major cities throughout the nation and their suburbs face many of the same shortfalls.

    I have heard the candidates who agree and support them in hopes they will follow through and improve a new Federal Department which, I think, could better appropriate it's funding. Should those candidates fail to follow through, shame on me. If they do and improvements are made, and I mean improvements with teeth, than it's worth every effort.

  8. #58
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    Default Trickle down..

    When I vote for my represenative weather it is for president of the United States or of my local union, I gain certain rights. At my local union I gain the right to bitch about how the local is being run,my contract,my working condition and how our money is spent, if we has an unit(majority rules)say that we want our local to support a canidate that will look out for our best interest, has a group (majority rules) we tell the leaders of our local to convey that to the district. At the district meeting all the locals that are represented at that meeting vote to tell our state reps who to support. Fire Pac is a way for our union to advance our interest, but that in no way is a decree on who we should vote for ...we all have free will ....but when you are a member of a special interest group you give up your individuality for the sake and interest of the group(majority rules). At some point down the road my union will support someone I don't like and I'll be in the minority....why ? .... because (majority rules).

    P.S. Didn't G.W. win by majority?
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    "I am interested in why a fireman from Tennessee would support a President who is CLEARLY against your right to sit across from your employer to negotiate things like pay and benefits."


    I am a rare bird...I am not looking for all things from a President.I want him to handle one thing more than all else...security.

    If I want an issue handled at a local level then I need to go to my local and state leaders. I have better access, more of a relationship with them, and more chance of getting a long term solution.

    Any support from the Federal gov't is short term as priorities change and so does the party in control. Long term goals should be handled at the local level.

    We are facing a budget cut next year. Bush can't fix our local and state tax system that has us in these mess. He could give us a bunch of money but next year we will right back here again.

    The big thing these days is claiming Homeland Security and first line of defense any time a department wants something (not inlcuding the direct related 9-11 funding).

    The first line of defense is really those grunts in the sand and the mountains trying to kill the terrorists at their camps.

    Homeland security is here, too but it needs to focus on the global military first.

    If Kerry says he's going to focus on giving everyone else a bunch of money to get them to support him then he is taking his eye of the ball which is the War.
    " The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." - Samuel Johnson

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    Ltmdepas3280, a question from me (who does not know how all the locals/national interact) about the PAC and Kerry. Was a poll taken from all the locals to let the national know which candidate to support, or do the locals hope the national picks someone who the national thinks is best? I'm curious. Lot of learning going on here.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    OK... Does ANYONE know Mr. Bush's plans for MY SPECIAL INTEREST GROUP. Again I see Mr. Kerry's plan but no plans for First Responders.
    As a First Responder to both World Trade Center Terrorism Indents, I know FDNY was promised MONEY by the Federal Government to BOOST our (Americas) WAR on TERROR. Yes, we got some to rebuild but far less then we were promised by Mr. Bush. So FDNY took money out of it's budget which runs both Fire and EMS to fight the WAR. The money Mr. Bush said was coming is not here and we close firehouses and find our self scraping for money to train our members for the WAR. We are still short on funds because New York is still the number one target and it seems like Mr. Bush does not care. Please someone. What is Mr. Bush plan for First Responders.
    Last edited by E40FDNYL35; 02-25-2004 at 03:14 PM.
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    The first line of defense is really those grunts in the sand and the mountains trying to kill the terrorists at their camps.
    swrr88, your point is well taken. The problem is that most of our attention is focused in Iraq,not at capturing those who carried out terrorist attacks against us.

    This has been hashed out many times on the forums. Some argue that the fire service has no role homeland DEFENSE.

    The fact is FDNY and other departments will be called on to deal with the result of a terror attack. It isn't like it hasn't happened before.

    We were targeted as a NATION not as a state or municipality. The fedderal government absolutely has a responsibility to foot the bill for the defense of the NATION.
    "We shouldn't be opening firehouses in Baghdad and closing them in New York City."

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    Posted by swrrr88
    The first line of defense is really those grunts in the sand and the mountains trying to kill the terrorists at their camps
    And just how many of those grunts are guardsmen and reservists who are firefighters and cops? My FD has sent two of our firefighters to military duty... one of them is still repairing the C-5's that bring the troops their equipment and unfortunately fly the bodies of our brave soldiers that were KIA home. The Fire Chief in Ashland, MA is a guardsman and is on a 1 year depolyment to Iraq, Ashland's Police Chief just got back from Iraq.

    While our Brothers and Sisters serve on the front lines, we are the ones who have to deal with the aftermath of any terrorist act. I dread the day that Al Qaeda convinces the children of Arabic descent to become pawns in their war as suicide bombers here in the US.[/b]
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
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    Bones : We have meetings within our district and any local that is there carries the vote of there membership to the meeting. If my local tells my represenative to vote a certain way...that rep had better vote that way or we will vote him out, by the same token we expect the rep to bring back all information to the local so that we can make an informed decision, the information flows both ways . We are a small group so the accountabilty factor is greater than a larger local...but I would be willing to bet that they have committees that make recomendation to the membership and that becomes there accountabilty. The IAFF PAC monies comes from individuals(Union members) and not from the local coffers (because of election and lobbying laws)but we make the decisions has to where the money is spent.
    Last edited by Ltmdepas3280; 02-25-2004 at 05:53 PM.
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    Default If our President is so concerned about security..

    Why is he so worried about an amendment to the Constitution banning gay marriages? Are gay people threatening yours and mines security? I know most of us probably havent given it much thought. It dosent effect me in the least. He should be worried about reducing the deficit and drain of manufacturing jobs here at home. But he is going to try and appease the far-right of the GOP. I havent made up my mind if there should be such a thing as "gay marriage" ..But I also know that our President has bigger fish to fry then worrying about trying to ammend the constitution banning it. Can anyone say STATES RIGHTS?
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    The first line of defense is really those grunts in the sand and the mountains trying to kill the terrorists at their camps
    I agree 100%. But for the sake of this argument, the Department of Defense takes care of the soldiers and the department of Homeland Security sees that the citizens on our shores are protected...or should.
    Last edited by E229Lt; 02-25-2004 at 07:38 PM.

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    Why is he so worried about an amendment to the Constitution banning gay marriages?
    Must be something in the Bible driving him on this one, I know it's not Arnie.

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    ..But I also know that our President has bigger fish to fry then worrying about trying to ammend the constitution banning it. Can anyone say STATES RIGHTS?
    Actually, Dubya can say STATES RIGHTS.

    On 2/15/00, Bush said about gay marriage, "The state can do what they want to."

    Also, on 4/21/00 he said, "It's the right of the state to make that decision" on gay marriage, and on 5/2/00 he said gay marriage is "going to be up for cities and states to make those decisions."

    On 10/5/00 Cheney echoed Bush saying, "I think the fact of the matter, of course, is [same-sex marriage] is regulated by the states. I think different states are likely to come to different conclusions and that's appropriate. I don't think there should necessarily be a federal policy in this area."

    Of course the election was four years away when those statements were made.
    "We shouldn't be opening firehouses in Baghdad and closing them in New York City."

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    Just my point Duff. It's "States Rights" when its convienient.
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    You said it MIKEY. It't election time, time to kiss up to his base. Of course his base would have preferred he not reduce revenues while spending like a drunken sailor on shore leave.

    Now back to FIREPAC.....
    "We shouldn't be opening firehouses in Baghdad and closing them in New York City."

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    Appeasing the base IS politics.
    You ar right C-Buff. The thing is, Bush's spending habits of late certainly don't appeal to his base. His original stance on Gay marraige and civil unions didn't appeal to his base.

    John Kerry, who you rightly (no pun intended) say is trying to appeal to his base, has a solid, consistent record as it pertains to the IAFF's causes. Did the IAFF jump on board early, sure. I was surprised myself.

    A lot of people jumped on board with Bush right after 9/11. They arent all on board now as evidenced by the drop in his approval rationg. Why, because of doubts about his motives for war and his spending in the face of a half billion dollar deficit, while reducing revenues no less.

    Can you say "Mission Accomplished"?

    We may yet see him in his flight suit with that banner behind him in a campaign commercial, just not his campaign commercial.
    Last edited by Duffman; 02-26-2004 at 07:38 AM.
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    Ha ha ..You dont think I dont know EVERYTHING is politics? I dont see where I am showing "contempt". I recognize the hypocrisy on both sides of the fence. I said it before and I will say it again. The far right wants less government when they feel like it. When States "go along" with their agenda. If you think I am some type of "left wing nut" CB you couldnt ba farther from the truth. But I am not ready to replace GWB's flight wings with amgel wings just yet.
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    Ltmdepas3280, thanks for the info.

    I sure would hate for President Bush to do nothing but worrying about 1 thing at a time. I would hope he (or any other person) would be capable of handling quite a few things at once. Some make bigger headlines than others, but I'll bet there is a lot more going on. Call me what you want, but I agree with him. Marriage should be between a man and woman. That's just the way I feel.


    Do I have this right? You (as an IAFF member) choose whether or not to contribute to PAC. You can have a say in who IAFF will support, although it's mostly by a majority rule. If you don't like who they end up supporting, you can stop contributing to PAC. Sounds like a fair deal to me. Although, I can see where an IAFF member who was in the minority on selecting who to support, could get upset to see the IAFF backing another choice. Thanks again guys.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    This has been an excellent discussion.

    I can understand a person having a problem with who their union endorses. What I don't understand is why some people get so offended by having the union sending them campaign letters etc.

    I too have encountered FIREPAC contributors who get ticked off when they recieve fliers in the mail. I don't get it. FIREPAC is explained very well by the IAFF. You don't wind up contributing without knowing what you are contributing to. FIREPAC contributers should expect, no, demand they recieve information from those candidates that are receiving their money.

    Those members who don't contribute to FIREPAC should expect information as well. By sending the information the IAFF is telling you who they support and why. They are being fair, in my opinion, by informing their members.
    "We shouldn't be opening firehouses in Baghdad and closing them in New York City."

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    Topic:FirePac and Kerry...anyone else sick of it?
    FIREPAC:FIREPAC is the IAFF’s political action committee (PAC). It is an integral part of the IAFF's efforts to promote the legislative and political interests of all professional fire fighters and paramedics. FIREPAC’s mission is to educate Members of Congress about issues important to fire fighters and emergency medical personnel and elect candidates to office that support those issues.

    As a federally registered PAC, FIREPAC must rely solely on personal, voluntary contributions from IAFF members, spouses and family members. Federal election law prohibits the use of union dues money to support federal candidates.

    So what this is saying if you don't like it don't contribute.

    REMEMBER WE THE IAFF ARE MEMBERS OF A SPECIAL INTEREST GROUP...YES THE EVIL PAC... YES, THE IAFF IS PUSHING OUR FIREFIGHTERS INTERESTS... IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT GET INVOLVED WITH THE IAFF AND CHANGE IT... YOU CAN STILL VOTE THE WAY YOU LIKE.

    By the way does anyone know what Mr. Bush's plan is for our SPECIAL INTEREST?
    Last edited by E40FDNYL35; 02-26-2004 at 10:15 AM.
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