02-19-2004, 12:52 PM #1
- Join Date
- Jan 2003
FDNY - Article from "The Chief Leader" (warning - Long)
Found this article which gives a few more details about them establishing the New list a few months earlier. Thought some might be intrested.
Next Firefighter List Will Debut Early, in May
Old Roster Used Up As FDNY Faces Higher Demand
By MARK DALY
The Fire Department has nearly used up its Firefighter hiring list and plans to establish a new list in May, six months ahead of schedule.
The unprecedented run through the 6,372-name list comes as a result of the stepped-up hiring of Firefighters following the World Trade Center terrorist attacks, FDNY and civil service officials told a City Council committee Feb. 10.
Tapped Over 2,700
The FDNY has appointed more than 2,700 people from the active list, No. 7029, since it was established three years ago. At this point, every person on the list has been considered for appointment at least once.
"The current list has been exhausted," said Thomas Patitucci, the Assistant Commissioner for Examinations at the Department of Citywide Administrative Services. "It hasn't happened before, in my experience."
The new list, No. 2043, will be drawn from the pool of 17,000 candidates who passed a written test for the job in 2002 and competed in a physical test last year.
The Fire Department plans to hire 200 recruits in March, and another 100 on May 25. Each class will be drawn from List 7029 and two promotion lists that are still in use, but the FDNY has asked to have the new list ready in case it's needed to fill open spots in the May class, said Deputy Fire Commissioner Douglas White.
The FDNY will be given preliminary score information for the new list in the next few weeks so it can begin conducting background checks for the highest scoring eligibles, Mr. Patitucci told the Council's Committee on Fire and Criminal Justice Services.
Usual Cutoff Score 95
The FDNY's need to refill its ranks has led it to appoint candidates with scores well below the traditional cutoff of 95.
In December, the hiring from List 7029 reached No. 5377, who had a score of 89.409 when the roster first appeared.
In the past, candidates who scored below 95 on the Firefighter test never had a chance to be hired, due to the traditionally low turnover in the department and the large number of high-scoring candidates.
After the Sept. 11 attacks, the FDNY doubled its training classes to replace the hundreds of firefighters killed at the Trade Center and many more who retired afterward.
'Passing's Good Enough'
Mr. Patitucci said the importance of scoring 95 was an accident of the department's low attrition rate, and not a deliberate effort to keep standards high. "There is no intermediate cutoff," he said. "If you get a passing score on the list, you have the ability to do the job."
Uniformed Firefighters' Association President Ste?phen J. Cassidy has cited the higher cutoff in his protests against the city's Firefighter promotion tests, which are reserved for employees in the Emergency Medical Service.
Civil service rules allow the FDNY to promote EMS workers with scores as low as 70 before turning to candidates from the hiring list who may have higher scores.
The UFA contends the promotion tests lower the standards for the job, but a state appellate court rejected the union's arguments and allowed the city to continue using the EMS rosters.
Aids Diversity Push
The FDNY says the promotion tests allow it to build a more diverse work force, since women, African-Americans and Hispanics make up a larger share of the EMS work force than the typical Firefighter applicant pool.
In an interview, Mr. Cassidy said he would prefer to see the city hold Firefighter tests more frequently than once every four years to ensure that getting the cream of the crop. "The department needs to attract the most physically fit firefighters for the job, and it needs to attract more minorities. It can do both if it holds the tests more often," he said.
The UFA leader added that he remains an opponent of the promotion tests. "Should somebody who scored a 70 get hired before somebody who scored 100? The answer is no,” Mr. Cassidy said.
DCAS expects to keep List 7029 in use through its November expiration date, but it now seems likely that the May class will be the last time it is used.
Some Didn't Qualify
While every eligible on List 7029 has been reached for appointment, many individuals remain on the list because they declined to be hired when they were contacted or didn't meet the qualifications to be hired, such as having 30 college credits and being at least 21 years old.
At least 73 candidates on the list are in a hiring limbo until they meet the requirements, said Michael Loughran, a Fire Department spokesman. In all, some 1,200 people on the list are awaiting appointment.
While the Sept. 11 attacks offered a wrenching lesson in the dangers of the profession, it appears to have emboldened the candidates seeking to be hired. The number of people declining the job has dropped by nearly half, Mr. Loughran said. While 203 candidates on the previous list chose not to be hired just 115 have done so on the current list.
City officials haven't provided much information on the forthcoming hiring list, since it hasn't formally been established.
56 Women Eligible
Mr. White said the new list will include 56 women, a much greater showing than on the previous list, and a better representation of minority candidates. "I think you're going to see ... more minorities spread throughout this list," he said.
Mr. White and Mr. Patitucci appeared before the Council committee to offer an explanation of the city's methods for recruiting and hiring Firefighters in the face of continued criticism from Council Members, several of whom expressed frustration at the lack of diversity in the FDNY's uniformed force.
Roughly 90 percent of the city's nearly 9,000 firefighters are white and only 24 are women, in a city where "people of color are 65 percent of the population," said Yvette Clarks, the committee's chair. "Society has evolved and the FDNY is still in the Stone Age. That makes no sense."
'Making Progress, But ..'
Mr. White noted that last year's hiring classes-which included candidates from a promotion roster-had a 15.2 percent minority representation. "We are making some progress, but obviously have a long, long way to go," he said.
New York ranks at the bottom of the nation's 10 largest cities in firefighter diversity, according to a report by the committee.
The committee released a nine-item list of recommendations for overhauling the FDNY's recruiting efforts. They proposed targeting advertising to women and minorities and offering more frequent tests, and said the department should "project a more consistent message" that it doesn't tolerate discrimination.
Mirrors EEPC Report
The list matched a previous set of recommendations released by the city's Equal Employment Practices Commission, which audits agencies' hiring procedures. The commission has been urging changes in the FDNY's recruiting and hiring for the past four years.
The EEPC sent a report to Mayor Bloomberg last April which called for him to order the FDNY to review the impact of its written test and its requirement that incoming recruits have 30 college credits by the time they are hired.
The commission contends that the written test unfairly screens out black candidates, who tend to score poorly on it. It said the college requirement also shuts out minorities, who tend to have lower levels of college achievement.
Mayor Not Changing
Mr. Bloomberg declined to order the FDNY to conduct the studies. "I am satisfied that the Fire Department has adequately addressed the points raised in the EEPC's report," he wrote in a letter to the commission last October.
When questioned about the issues at the Council hearing, Mr. Patitucci acknowledged that previous exams, including the one held in 1999 for List 7029, had a "disparate impact" on under-represented groups, including women and black candidates. But he said the tests didn't violate the law, because the city followed proper procedures in drawing up and evaluating questions.
The EEPC reported that on Exam 7029, the pass rate for white candidates was 91.6 percent, while the pass rate for black candidates was 61 percent. In addition, 86.7 percent of the candidates who scored 95 or above were white, while just 2.6 percent were black.
The higher scores posted by white candidates could reflect advantages "beyond ability," including "general test-taking ability, experience with multiple-choice exams, and having the time and money to prepare for the exam," the City Council committee said in its recommendations to the FDNY.
02-19-2004, 03:59 PM #2
- Join Date
- Sep 2003
- New York
Thankyou martinez24, all the info is greatly appreciated!!
02-19-2004, 04:45 PM #3
- Join Date
- Feb 2004
I don't know about everyone else here, but I am getting pretty sick of the crying minorites always saying that there being discrimanated against.. It's not my fault they don't want to take the test, or can't pass the written. What do they want, to be hired without having to go through what the rest of us do? What's next extra points for being a minority? OH WAIT - why not just get hired and assigned to a house, dont worry about going through the academy or the physicals? Because you know its all a conspiricy to keep you out of this job.... (and yes I know I spelt a few things wrong)
02-19-2004, 05:19 PM #4
- Join Date
- Sep 2003
- New York
I don't know if its really the minorities bitching about the job. It is pretty obvious that they don't want the job. I think it is the liberal politicians that are trying to force something down everyones throat. Its all politics, you can't force someone to do something no matter what. Especially a job like this one, its not something you wake up and say I want to be a firefighter or someone asks you to be a FF and your like O OK sounds cool. It takes disire!!
02-20-2004, 11:10 AM #5
- Join Date
- Jan 2003
- Los Alamos, New Mexico, USA
The same standards should apply to all candidates. Ethnicity should have no bearing on whether or not a person is given a job. If the person that is selected can perform the required task, then their skin color or religion is immaterial. By all means let us give more education to those that need it, so that they become eligible for employment, but give that extra education to all those that need it, not just the minorities. We have many excellent fire fighters who are from minorities who got the job based on their abilities and not their color or religion. In my opinion, to have different entry standards for certain sections of the community is a slap in the face for those of all colors and creeds that got hired for their ability.
If after analysis it is decided that people without college credits can do the job, then remove that requirement for all not just the few.
Racial discrimination works both ways and should not be tolerated under any circumstances.
02-21-2004, 05:44 PM #6
- Join Date
- Dec 2003
- Long Island, New York
now im not racist in the least, but i agree with all of you in this. during the first 3 months when people were signing up for the written, initially only about 7000 guys signed up. they took an extra month and pushed it onto people, and thats how they ended up with 20,000 and change. BUT when they were pushing it, they were literally sitting on the streets handing it to WOMEN and MINORITIES. i walked past one woman who was handing out applications with my family, and she didnt even offer it to me, just my sister. as far as minorities wanting the job but not being able to get it, im sorry if they are not as well educated b/c of the area you live, but this is not the job where you can lower the level just to make it politically correct. that was the point of basing the hiring on a test. and i dont know about anyone else, but i took my test at franklin lane h.s. in east new york, a real crummy area with a mostly minority population, and i barely saw any there to take the test....maybe its just me, but i dont think it is. but dont get me wrong, anyone who can do the SAME test as me and do well by all means should be hired, regardless of race or sex.
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