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    Default Robbing the bottle????

    Today I was reading a magazine and there was an article about a process called "Robbing the Bottle". This is if a firefighter runs out of air. The firefighter is supposed to carry a piece of 3/4 inch plastic tubbing longing enough to go from the threads on the bottom of the bottle to his mask. If the FF runs out of air he is supposed to unhook the the bottle from the air line and slide the tubing over the threads. Then he should crack the valve open when he needs a breath and then close it after a breath. According to the article there is enough air in the bottle to get through this tube but not enough to get through pressure reducers to the mask. They said this should hopefully give him an extra few breaths to get himself out of the structure.

    What do you guys think about this procedure?? I am a little leary of it, maybe because I have never heard of it or practiced it. Any body else have any experience with it?

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    Cofiregal told me that in FF1/2 there they taught that if you run out of air with a belt mounted regulator to stick the tube from the mask in your coat. I told her do you want that written on your monument---" just take the tube and put in your coat".


    But no I have never heard of it or tried that nor will I when my time comes.I will train enough not to get in that situation in the first place!
    I dont suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.

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    Originally posted by stm4710
    "if you run out of air with a belt mounted regulator to stick the tube from the mask in your coat. " just take the tube and put in your coat".


    But no I have never heard of it or tried that nor will I when my time comes.I will train enough not to get in that situation in the first place!

    I would have to agree 100%
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    I just re read the reply to that article, it was in a recent issue of FIRE/RESCUE Magazine ...........I do not recall the actual article only that someone wrote in about the safety aspect of it.
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    I have never heard of that but I have heard of guys taking a piece of plastic/rubber hose and if you run out of air, you insert the hose through the side of your mask and your partners mask. You then share the air from your partners tank. They say that the positive pressure keeps the smoke out of the mask. For those of us without the pigtail attachment, I guess it would be better than nothing.

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    I think that it could be one of the most dangerous things I have ever heard. Even if there was 100psi left in the bottle, if you open the valve too much, you can seriously injure yourself.

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    That is not the brightest thing I have heard of, but its not the worst either. If I am that desperate for air that I am going to connect a hose directly to the bottle, I most have made a serious mistake at some point.

    And stm4710, when my dad was in rookie school back in early 80's, they were taught to stuff the hose in the coat. That was back when we were using IIa's, which we got rid of in the early 90's. Somewhere I have his old lesson plans from his rookie show that shows that technique being demonstrated.
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    Sounds like a last ditch effort to save your butt. I would hate to be in that situation and hope I never have to do anything like that but as the old saying goes "never say never". I wouldn't carry a section of 3/4" line anyway but once heard in casual conversation about taking the bottle out of the frame and doing something like this as a do or die situation. Again I would hate to think about doing it. When I first got in the department we had 2As (we called them Snufflumpagus packs like the thing on seaseme street because of the hose) and we were taught in training to do the coat thing, again in a "do or die" situation. As far as I know no one in our department ever did nor have I ever talked to anyone who did. I never thought it would have worked that great.
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    Simple test here folks... breathe a pack down to getting no more air (remember, when you run out, your mask will suck onto your face in a vaccum) now, while holding what little breath you got to suck your mask on, take your pack off, remove the bottle, put a rubber hose on it, and see if you actually get any air. I'm betting that there is none. The amount of air pressure that would be required for pass alarms and low air bells would be less than the vaccum you would create sucking your mask dry.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Originally posted by Weruj1
    I just re read the reply to that article, it was in a recent issue of FIRE/RESCUE Magazine ...........I do not recall the actual article only that someone wrote in about the safety aspect of it.
    Yea thats exactly where I read it!!! After reading it like I said I was very skeptical of the process. And all of you guys seem to be skeptical at the bear minimum. Why would a magazine print something like that, it just seems too dangerous?

    Also I think someone else mentioned it but would'nt it be possible to seriously injure yourself if there is some air left in the bottle; even if you just crack the vavle. I don't think that I would want to be hit in the face with even 50psi of air, or even worse having that go into my lungs.

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    To those guys who said that they would train enough so as to "never allow themselves to be in that situation," I say you'd better not go into burning buildings anymore. Find another profession. There is no telling what can happen when you go into a structure fire. How do you know the floor isn't going to give out suddenly on you, or ceiling collapse, or any multitude of other circumstances beyond your control, trapping you under debris in a smoke filled environment. You may run out of air waiting for someone to come get you out. Have you trained enough to live without air? I don't think so, brothers.

    I have heard of this (getting more air out of your tank) before, and I honestly don't know if it works. I do know one trick to keep in mind if you find yourself completely out of air: remove the regulator from the facepiece and cover the opening with your gloved hand or hood to filter out some of the smoke. It won't be perfect air but bad air is better than none at all.

    Stay safe.

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    Exclamation Fight to the end!!!

    I understand why people feel these techniques are dangerous or not effective. But, in a do or die situation, if given the choice of trying something that may work but could be dangerous or saying thats too dangerous I just think I'll lay down and die and let them pull me out when the fire is out, which would you choose? I would fight to the end.
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    To those guys who said that they would train enough so as to "never allow themselves to be in that situation," I say you'd better not go into burning buildings anymore. Find another profession. There is no telling what can happen when you go into a structure fire. How do you know the floor isn't going to give out suddenly on you, or ceiling collapse, or any multitude of other circumstances beyond your control, trapping you under debris in a smoke filled environment. You may run out of air waiting for someone to come get you out. Have you trained enough to live without air? I don't think so, brothers.
    In this event, the extra few breaths you will get out of your bottle is not going to make the difference. You will need someone to bring you a WHOLE NEW BOTTLE, maybe even a couple of times before they can get you out.

    I would suspect that the person trying to use this "hose to the bottle" method might be better off spending the time it takes to rig this whole thing up, trying to get out instead...

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    TheFIRST thing I would do is hit my pass device.






    "I will train enough not to get in that situation in the first place" ????????????????

    What a frightening statement!
    May we never forget our fallen, worldwide.

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    Originally posted by StayBack500FT
    "I will train enough not to get in that situation in the first place" ????????????????

    What a frightening statement!
    Why is it so frightening? Didn't you read the reports that said the guys up in Worcester would have lived if they had more training? What about the non-9/11 deaths in NYC? The basic problem was that they did not have sufficient training. We could stop all LODD if we just trained more.

    (huge sigh)

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    if given the choice of trying something that may work
    Here's a startling concept...how about going down to your firehouse and actually try some of these procedures BEFORE you need to do it the first time in a fire? During a fire is not the time to be thinking "Gee I read this in a book once..."

    MarcS - I quoted you, but I'm not singling you out. This was more of a message to everyone.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Default Re: Fight to the end!!!

    Originally posted by Hobbitt
    I understand why people feel these techniques are dangerous or not effective. But, in a do or die situation, if given the choice of trying something that may work but could be dangerous or saying thats too dangerous I just think I'll lay down and die and let them pull me out when the fire is out, which would you choose? I would fight to the end.

    Why not look at it as Lay Down and Live? The more calm you remain, the longer your air supply is going to last. The better physical condition you are in, the longer your air is going to last.

    Air management, your PASS device, radio communication, your partner, your officer, and an effective accountability system (and I'm not talking a toe-tags-given-to-the-IC system) are probably going to better options than some aquarium tubing.
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    God, I hope someone misreading somethin'...

    'Cause how it's described here sounds like a monumental waste of training time.

    Lay Down and Live? is good words. Calm down, figure out your next move.

    Also do Bone's idea and give it a try. But make sure you have both legs and one hand tied down -- after all, if you're mobile why would you take the time to stop moving, wasting those few seconds you just gained? If you're trapped, and you can't slip your airpack off 'cause an arm is pinned, are you double jointed enough to put the hose on the outlet and open the valve (most bottles I've seen in the last decade, the valve is opposite the outlet...)

    Jesse, you can't train to keep yourself out of every bad situation. You can train to do your best, and to react well when stuff hits the fan.

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    Take those three quotes together -- spend your luck wisely, 'cause ya only got so much.

    I don't see having a hose in your pocket being a good investment.
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    I thought they invented RIC couplers, buddy breathers, smoke eaters, etc... for this senario.

    A piece of tubing would be far inferior to any of the above IMO.

    If somebody is going to be traped in a fire for an extended period of time, like in the collapse mentioned above, then something like a remote air line would be a good safety item IMO.
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    Originally posted by GeorgeWendtCFI


    Why is it so frightening? Didn't you read the reports that said the guys up in Worcester would have lived if they had more training? What about the non-9/11 deaths in NYC? The basic problem was that they did not have sufficient training. We could stop all LODD if we just trained more.

    (huge sigh)
    That's a hell of a thing to say. Are you saying all the non-9/11 FDNY LODD were due to lack of training? I'm sure you keep track of all the company training they have done over the years. Give me a break.

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    eric ..............you see the "huge sigh" there ? thats called sarcasm ...........he did not mean it how you interpreted it.
    IACOJ both divisions and PROUD OF IT !
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    I recently read ďRobbing the BottleĒ and have no intention of using this technique in training or reality. I would like to think that I could use my last air to try and remove myself or put myself in a position to be rescued. Are you trapped or lost in a building? Can you get to the tubing? Can you remove your scba to get to the bottle? What do you breathe between the time your regulator stops supplying air and the time you make the connection to the bottle? Unless you have Harry Houdini like ability to hold your breath, you take in smoke or sear your lungs with superheated air. Iíd imagine that the only positive gain from this article is to get you thinking of what you could do if you found yourself in this spot. Training is an absolute necessity in the fire service. For the person who believes he can train as much so that he doesnít find himself in these situations, I would think you could use more experience. If you had real fire experience[ and Iím not talking about buildings filled with fake smoke, propane powered fire simulators or the typical controlled fire ground training] youíll understand that there are many variables at a fire scene. Maybe you fell through a burned out floor, or had your egress from a roof cut off. Youíve got burns to the neck and face. The floor above you comes down and misses you by 10í. These incidents happen on a regular basis , they are anticipated and many times unavoidable. Think of the times you came out of a fire a little rattled, shaking your head thinking how fortunate you just were to survive that adventure with little or no injury. Experience verifies your training and is the better teacher. As for the reports on the 9/11 and Worchester disasters and the people who state that more training would have avoided these LODDís that in my opinion is just plain ignorance [unless there is some sarcasm that Iím missing in that statement] . I bet that some pretty well trained firemen have died in the line of duty. We should try to learn from our brotherís misfortunes, not dishonor their memory by claiming that they were not properly trained! After all were talking about two solid departments. On this job you will be put in harms way. A lot of times itís a matter of luck, good or bad, those times itís out of your control. Do whatever you have to keep yourself breathing. Train on everything you choose, but try to weed out the nonsense from the good fundamentals. Let me know if Iím missing something here. Stay Safe Brothers. I recently read ďRobbing the BottleĒ and have no intention of using this technique in training or reality. I would like to think that I could use my last air to try and remove myself or put myself in a position to be rescued. Are you trapped or lost in a building? Can you get to the tubing? Can you remove your scba to get to the bottle? What do you breathe between the time your regulator stops supplying air and the time you make the connection to the bottle? Unless you have Harry Houdini like ability to hold your breath, you take in smoke or sear your lungs with superheated air. Iíd imagine that the only positive gain from this article is to get you thinking of what you could do if you found yourself in this spot. Training is an absolute necessity in the fire service. For the person who believes he can train as much so that he doesnít find himself in these situations, I would think you could use more experience. If you had real fire experience[ and Iím not talking about buildings filled with fake smoke, propane powered fire simulators or the typical controlled fire ground training] youíll understand that there are many variables at a fire scene. Maybe you fell through a burned out floor, or had your egress from a roof cut off. Youíve got burns to the neck and face. The floor above you comes down and misses you by 10í. These incidents happen on a regular basis , they are anticipated and many times unavoidable. Think of the times you came out of a fire a little rattled, shaking your head thinking how fortunate you just were to survive that adventure with little or no injury. Experience verifies your training and is the better teacher. As for the reports on the 9/11 and Worchester disasters and the people who state that more training would have avoided these LODDís that in my opinion is just plain ignorance [unless there is some sarcasm that Iím missing in that statement] . I bet that some pretty well trained firemen have died in the line of duty. We should try to learn from our brotherís misfortunes, not dishonor their memory by claiming that they were not properly trained! After all were talking about two solid departments. On this job you will be put in harms way. A lot of times itís a matter of luck, good or bad, those times itís out of your control. Do whatever you have to keep yourself breathing. Train on everything you choose, but try to weed out the nonsense from the good fundamentals. Let me know if Iím missing something here. Stay Safe Brothers.
    Last edited by TIPMAN13; 02-20-2004 at 11:49 PM.

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    Originally posted by GeorgeWendtCFI


    The basic problem was that they did not have sufficient training. We could stop all LODD if we just trained more.

    (huge sigh)
    OK I am lost, Are you really saying that we can avoid LODD, well I am not being sarcastic but thats impossible. There are to many things to take into consideration. I strongly believe in Murphys Law when it comes to the fire service, "what won't go wrong, will go wrong' We have control to a point. Things happen beyond our control.
    If we don't do it nobody else will!!!!

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    Originally posted by TIPMAN13
    I recently read ďRobbing the BottleĒ and have no intention of using this technique in training or reality. Training is an absolute necessity in the fire service. Youíll understand that there are many variables at a fire scene. Maybe you fell through a burned out floor, or had your egress from a roof cut off. Youíve got burns to the neck and face. The floor above you comes down and misses you by 10í. These incidents happen on a regular basis , they are anticipated and many times unavoidable. Think of the times you came out of a fire a little rattled, shaking your head thinking how fortunate you just were to survive that adventure with little or no injury. Experience verifies your training and is the better teacher. As for the reports on the 9/11 and Worchester disasters and the people who state that more training would have avoided these LODDís that in my opinion is just plain ignorance [unless there is some sarcasm that Iím missing in that statement] . I bet that some pretty well trained firemen have died in the line of duty. We should try to learn from our brotherís misfortunes, not dishonor their memory by claiming that they were not properly trained! After all were talking about two solid departments. On this job you will be put in harms way. A lot of times itís a matter of luck, good or bad, those times itís out of your control. Do whatever you have to keep yourself breathing. Train on everything you choose, but try to weed out the nonsense from the good fundamentals. Let me know if Iím missing something here. Stay Safe Brothers.
    You pretty much covered it all.
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    If you are going to carry additional equipment in case you run out of air or your SCBA malfunctions I'd think it would be more useful to carry one of those filters available to convert the facemask of MMR / FPMR style face masks into a filter mask. It won't provide pure air or stop CO but it would cut out many of the nasty gasses and I'd think offer some protection from hot gasses. I haven't read the article in question but it sounds odd at the least, I think the next time I'm training on air I'll try breathing down the bottle until the unit stops functioning and see just how much air is left, I wouldn't think it is much if any.

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