1. #1
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    Default Dependence upon TIC's

    I have to be honest - we here in NJ have it good. Every FD in the state was provided a thermal imaging camera by the State. And here in my department we have two.

    We have a charger on our trucks - and the camera see's a fair amount of usage.

    But are we becoming too dependent upon this technology??

    What if you take it into a large commercial occupancy - the ability to see where you are going aids in your making it deep into the building --
    Then the camera craps out. Now you are deep into the structure - and without the "aid" of the camera to negotiate your way out.

    I know what many of you are going to say -

    Discipline is needed, not to exceed your abilities, not to go to far into the structure - not to exceed the capabilites of your SCBA...

    But to be honest with you - there are a new generation of firefighters that are 'growing up' Thermal imager dependent -- You tell them to check the wall for heat - and they grab the camera.

    We are letting other useful skills die - and becoming too dependent upon the camera.

    Same thing can be said of power saws. SOP is for us to bring a saw, an axe, and hook to the roof to vent. If the saw goes south, you have the axe.

    I have seen firefighters whose saw malfunctioned sit idle while they waited for a second saw to be brought to the roof. The whole time they had an axe within arms reach.


    What do you think...??

    Technology - a wonderful tool -- but not at the expense of our other skills.
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    There is a lot of "newer, better ways" to do thinks and technology has been good to us. There are so many things we can now do much quicker. But, as you said, we have to remain DISCIPLINED!!! Yes there are many newer people who came in with the technology already in place, but it is OUR job to teach them not to rely on them.

    If you do go into a commercial structure relying on your TIC, you better have a tagline/hoseline to find your way out if your TIC fails. I think every FF should have to cut at least 1 vent hole with an axe to see what it's like before they can use a saw. Not necessarily on a real fire, but at least in training........

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    I gree with 77, they must stay DISCIPLINED in searching by feel. At the very least they need to make mental notes of each area they go through, in the event that the TIC fails. Failure to do so can lead to tragic results, when, as you mentioned, the TIC fails.

    Don't rely on the TIC to get you there... just use it to see what's there, when you get in there. I hope that makes sense.
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    I belive and what was stressed in my cadet class and explorers was you need to strike a balance between the new and old. You need to know how to use your yang when the ying craps out.

    But are we becoming too dependent upon this technology??
    I bet this was the same question asked when the handtub,gratacap,Gamewells,motorized apparatus,aerial ladders,SCBA,nomex were first introduced too.

    I think every FF should have to cut at least 1 vent hole with an axe to see what it's like before they can use a saw.
    It is BARBARIC!
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    FFMcdonald..... Anything can "crap out" including your pumper, nozzle, SCBA...you name it.... But today's thermal imagers have been so well designed and built so tough that they rarely fail. in fact, I was talking with a rep the other day and he said that he had not knowledge of any failure of any TIC from any manufacturer due to defects during "battle". Any failure that he had heard of was do to "user failure" But you are correct about depending so much on modenr technology, and not using your brain.

    It seems that we have tried to make it so easy to do things today that folks do not have to "think". They merely show up and "expect" things to happen.

    In fat, I recall a time when I was OIC on our Ladder on a working fire and the chain saw "crapped out." The vent man (a newbie) came to me and told me it was broke and said,"how am I gonna open the roof." I looked at him and said, "Try using and axe, do you think that will work?" He said.."If that is all I have to use, I guess so!"
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    When I said 'crapped out' I didn't mean mechanical failure - I meant something as simple as the battery running out.

    According to Bullard - the run time for a perfectly charged battery is 1.5 hours.
    http://thermalimager.bullard.com/dow...ommanderSS.pdf

    And, according to e2vtechnologies - who manufactures the Argus - they state an average battery life of 2 hours.
    http://e2vtechnologies.com/datasheet...2/p4455rus.pdf

    Would I be off the mark - saying that if a camera were stored on a truck - and pulled from it's hard case - that it would have less than a perfect chage?

    Don't you think that it is reasonable that the camera just might simply -- run out of juice?

    I bet this was the same question asked when the handtub,gratacap,Gamewells,motorized apparatus,aerial ladders,SCBA,nomex were first introduced too.
    I am not tyring to 'dismiss' the introduction of Thermal Imaging- and the application for it in the fire service.

    When SCBA were introduced - many "crusty-old" (No disrespect intended or implied Capt. Gonzo) firefighters dismissed their introduction as nothing more than a fad. I bet that many of the same firefighters later came down with debilitating illnesses, caused by the carcinogens in the smoke that they ingested.

    If you want examples for all the other items you mentioned - then I can dig that up too.

    I feel that Thermal Imaging is a great tool - but you have to know what to do when that tool breaks. Just like the analogy I made with the vent saw. You better have an axe, and know how to use it.
    Sure - the saw is easier, and quicker - but the manual version can get the job done too.

    At your next search and rescue drill - pull the camera from the crew. Or better yet - turn it off, and make it a 7 pound paperweight. Make sure they have the skills to get out of that building alive.
    Marc

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    One technique which I have been pushing all my brothers and sisters to excersize when using the TIC is to have the 2nd man on the team carry the camera, not the lead man. This forces the lead to use "old fashion" techniques (follow walls, sound floor, stay low). When you get to a small room the camera man is in ideal position to anchor the door and direct the lead in a touch-search.

    Beyond that, tag lines and multiple cameras on scene in any large commercial occupancy.

    A drill which I read about in another thread was to keep an old battery that is pooched or partly discharged and put it into the camera before the search team goes in. Ideally it will die 10 minutes into the drill.
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    I will agree that we may be "depending" on the TIC a little to much..We had a dealership fire not to long ago that the camera failed (dead battery) It was clear, clear, RED, blank..It wasn't the camera that bothered me..It was the guy behind me that said "Oh **** now what are we going to do" Fire304, Brings up an interesting point--Train for the failure..
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    I feel that Thermal Imaging is a great tool - but you have to know what to do when that tool breaks. Just like the analogy I made with the vent saw. You better have an axe, and know how to use it.
    Sure - the saw is easier, and quicker - but the manual version can get the job done too
    And the problem is...When the TIC breaks, and you are in the middle of a large commercial buidling, and you didn't follow some of the basics getting there.....how you gonna get out?

    Good post Mac!

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    I agree with much of what has been stated already. Some new technology is fine, but it needs to be used wisely. With the advent of SCBA and our new turnout gear, you have guys getting killed in flashovers etc... You can already see the effects of that technology as it adversely impacts those who fail to use older tactics ie.. reading your conditions, etc... With TIC, I have thought about the same things. TIC should only supplement your current search tacits, not replace them and make them new. You still need to stay on a wall, use a tag line for open spaces, etc... Because like has been said the battery might fail, or the camera might be knocked out of your hand, a number of things could happen. TIC is a great tool, but it should be used responsibily. Failure to do so and you are setting yourself up to get a parade in the back of a fire engine in a box.

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    A recent Pheonix study suggests not working a "commercial" farther than 200' from the nearest access point.Sensible when you think about it.When we're on the road teaching TI's we watch the students,if they stray from proper search tactics their camera will suddenly fail (the instructor shuts it off).They quickly learn the value of proper habits.The othe we use is if you can't see you feet (without the camera)you're not on them.A Dept near me uses a 200' rope bag with two 40' personal ropes which allows you to go 200' deep and 80' wide.T.C.

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    Originally posted by Rescue101
    A recent Pheonix study suggests not working a "commercial" farther than 200' from the nearest access point.Sensible when you think about it.When we're on the road teaching TI's we watch the students,if they stray from proper search tactics their camera will suddenly fail (the instructor shuts it off).They quickly learn the value of proper habits.The othe we use is if you can't see you feet (without the camera)you're not on them.A Dept near me uses a 200' rope bag with two 40' personal ropes which allows you to go 200' deep and 80' wide.T.C.
    We have a similar bag. 200' rope with knots every 20 feet to let the team leader know how far in they are. Then there are 2 25' rope bags that tie into this that the team leader holds the ends of so 2 members can do sweeps to the sides. Works pretty well

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    I chuckled when I saw this post, but I think it is a valid discussion.

    About 15 years ago when I was doing my Military Basic Training, we were arguing the fact that the introduction of GPS was going to eliminate map & compass skills, and soldiers would be getting lost left right and centre when their batteries died.

    Well, they still train map & compass skills, and they haven't become totally reliant on GPS. Soldiers are still occasionally getting lost, but not for this reason. Simple human error is always more dangerous than dead batteries.

    I think as long as you train the basics before letting the rookies loose with the toys, they will be seen and appreciated for what they are - speciality tools.
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    I cnould not agree more with all these things, one nice thing in this instzance for us is that we dont get enough actual fires to learn dependancy on this particualr thing. Where we as a department notices it ALOT is on EMS calls as no matter how hard we try, we have a a Paramedic dependant department. We are slowly trying to change that, but ya ........we all have top temper basics with technology somehow to keep us sharp in the event you need to think quickly on your toes.
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    This is avery good thread,. To all, I hope you're all paying attention. Here are some thoughts, Regardless of whether or not a crew is using a thermal imager, If they do not have the benefit of a hose line or search line, the safe method is an "oriented" search. Every crew and individual will have different levels of ability depending on training and experience. What's not so obvious to most is what has been mentioned in this thread, It remains as important if not more important to stay "oriented" while using a TIC. This may not allways mean "staying on a wall", if you're trained properly you will learn to stay oriented to the areas you're searching, in case of changing conditions or camera failure. Believe me, batteries fail, operators make mistakes and contrary to what reps tell you units have and will fail in "battle", I've seen it first-hand. I hope when we say "train for failure" we mean "TRAIN FOR SUCCESS" and perhaps "anticipate" falure, ie. building,fire,camera,pump, after all #%*@-happens. The challenge is to convince most people that proper training is even more important when you hand someone this technology. Peoples confidence levels are often unrealistically high when they first use this thing. One more thing regarding camera positioning and directing a search, you're right on with that application but I think you need to look into other areas of camera positioning during operations that particular placement works well in a small room but don't limit yourself to single methods.Stay safe JF
    Last edited by JForristall; 02-22-2004 at 09:10 PM.

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    Exclamation

    We first got TIC's in '91 for the Rescue.Now all ladders have them.They're a great tool,with limitations.You have to know how to search without it to expand a search with it.Its job is to show heat,but it won't show a hole in the floor.Since it has a battery and wires and odds and ends it can break no matter what anyone says.Twice over the years I've been inside a fire with my capt and we had it crap out with a fully charged battery.Has the problem of white out been completely eliminated?Lets not forget heat behind glass.Any sales rep who says they'll NEVER fail inside is either misinformed or lying to your face.They are really good when used properly,but don't forget you're inside a building that can kill you and your crew if you can't get out.

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    Lightbulb

    This is an excellent point...just as one will use the hydra-ram frequently...he better know how to force the door conventionally with the Irons when the Hydra-ram just won't work. A truckie should now how to search a room proficently and quickly without the use of a TIC. (what happens when it is broke and in the shop?)

    I'll second or third that of those who comented on the Rep who was heard stating that the cameras are almost failure proof or didn't know of a failure or whatever.

    That either shows he is a BS artist, doesn't keep in touch with his clients or he doesn't listen to them.

    I also have been present for a few failures of what were fully operational and charged TICs at the previous change of tours. In my previous dept part of that was due to the Chief just wanting to tell the city council there was a TIC on every apparatus...so he bought those little handheld POS from Bullard. Instead of wisely investing in good TICs for certian companies intially until more could be bought. Whiteouts and failures were not uncommon even in minor fires.

    Especially in large open areas the limitations on the distance range of the TIC should be considered. I know before we tried them out we didn't realize the limitations and what the benefits and disadavantages for a remote monitor were.

    In my current dept. our Rescues and Squads have had them for years and our Trucks just got them recently. The Truckies still use search ropes in large commercial buildings and the primary and secondary always involve the tried and true methods of search. By hand.

    For TICs understand the technology and the different types, what thier limitations are and how it migh affect your operations.

    PS: I also agree with whomever said everyone should have to use the axe at least once before they use the saw in a roof. There is alot to be learned by doing it the hard way first.

    FTM-PTB

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    As a guy who used the lil' "pos" Bullard on a fairly regular basis,I'd suggest if it "Whiteouts" on you on a regular basis,one of two things is happening.Either you're coming in from a really cold area into a really warm one,or you're in an atmosphere you need to re-evaluate,or the camera operator was never taught how to "properly" sweep a room.These are not "high end" cameras but for the working rank and file they have served many in the Fire service community faithfully with few problems.If you get a whiteout sweep to another area,wait a second or two and sweep back.If it still "whitesout" you have a problem,and it's probably not the camera.T.C.

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    The nickel hydride batteries (used by Bullard) are not "supposed" to build a memory. Bullard says 1.5 hours but will actually tell you in demos that under optimum conditions you have 2.5 hours and under constant use in high heat the time is actually 2 hours. So if you have the unit in the truck charger, you should figure 2 hours max and then with your spare battery an additional 2 hours. It takes about 1 to 1.5 hours to fully recharge a battery so with 2 batteries your time is almost unlimited.

    I did not say that cameras do not fail, especially when you talk about losing a battery. I was speaking of the rare cases when they fail mechanically.

    It is my understanding that only the old (original technology) cameras "white out" and that was due to the deterioration of the tube inthe camera. Now when you see what some people term to be "white out" you are actually seeing the camera change modes from normal to higher heat.
    Either you're coming in from a really cold area into a really warm one,or you're in an atmosphere you need to re-evaluate,or the camera operator was never taught how to "properly" sweep a room.
    So this philosophy is correct.
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    FFMcDonald, thanks a million for posting this one up.

    This is one topic that needs to be pinned to the top or posted about every 3-4 months. I think it is very important to remember that firefighters are still picking up a TIC for the first time every day all over this Country. I also think unfortunately in some cases they are picking up that TIC with little or no training. I also still see firefighters with 2-3 years of TIC experience making mistakes that could really get them in trouble. These instances may be more related to overconfidence or “Superman Syndrome”.

    I did a number of articles back in 2001 that addressed the common “Pitfallls & Problems“ associated with Thermal Imaging. One of them appeared in the Fire Dept Safety Officers Association Newsletter and another appeared in the Bullard Newsletter “Get the Picture”, you can review that article at: http://thermalimager.bullard.com/new...2001juneNL.cfm

    The outline for the articles looked like:
    1. Common Safety Issues for Departments with Thermal Imagers
    a. Standing & Walking
    b. Advancing Without Reference Points
    c. Advancing Too Quickly
    d. Advancing Too Slowly
    e. Bad Decisions Based on Bad Interpretation of Information
    f. Wrong Tool for the Job
    g. Not Being Used

    2. Root Causes of Safety Issues
    a. Lack of Knowledge & Training
    b. Lack of Practical Experience
    c. Over-Confidence

    3. Resolving Safety Concerns
    a. SOP / SOG
    b. Training
    c. Behavior Modification

    A Thermal Imager can be a “Life Saver” or a “Life Taker”, but it will not be the thermal imager that makes the decision which one it will be, it will be strictly up to the user whether they use the TIC properly or improperly.

    Everyone who has posted has brought up some very good points,
    1. There is no replacement, technology or otherwise, for the “Basics of Firefighting”.
    2. Any piece of equipment can fail, if you use a TIC long enough you will experience some type of failure or problem when you least expect it or want it.
    3. Just like with your SCBA, you had better have an emergency action plan that you can do blindfolded without even thinking about it in the event your TIC fails.
    4. A TIC requires ongoing hands-on training, you are never done learning.
    5. When in doubt give the TIC to the guy in the rear, make the guy in front do it the old fashioned way to keep the crew honest.

    Thanks to everyone again for the great input, keep it coming!
    Mike Richardson
    Captain, Training Officer
    St Matthews FD, Louisville KY
    "aka TIman"
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    The information and views above are in no way associated with my employer, and are strictly my own.

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    Well Mikey,you might be pleased to know that little used document you wrote is one of several "backbone"guides we use in our TI program.That with intensive practical simulations form a entry level TI camera user.You are ABSOLUTELY correct that to use this tool effectively requires constant use and training.As 304 pointed out different cameras can give you different views so methodical scans of ANY area are advised.T.C.

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    For TC, I'm going to have to agree with the guy that had seen the "little" camera fail to show a scene. While his use of the term whiteout may not have been 100% accurate, I have to admit that I too, have seen the display so saturated, not just once or twice, and not on any one individual camera. This happened several times, in different environments, in fact at one point, 3 cameras from the same manufacturer, side by side, failed to show any hint or outline of a firefighter positioned fairly close to a heat source. The same manufacturers larger VOX unit in the same environment at the same time showed the target clearly. I will assure you I know how to scan an area, and I teach my students the proper way to do it also. In all these cases, I suspect the problem was related to these units being among the first to be sold in the areas concerned. My guess is it was a (since) corrected problem with software, although I've never confirmed my theory. I will say in more recent trainings I have not seen as drastic a degraded image in the same type of camera from either manufacturer. Stay safe JF

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    Originally posted by captstanm1
    The nickel hydride batteries (used by Bullard) are not "supposed" to build a memory. Bullard says 1.5 hours but will actually tell you in demos that under optimum conditions you have 2.5 hours and under constant use in high heat the time is actually 2 hours. So if you have the unit in the truck charger, you should figure 2 hours max and then with your spare battery an additional 2 hours. It takes about 1 to 1.5 hours to fully recharge a battery so with 2 batteries your time is almost unlimited.
    Just to clarify:

    Batteries for the larger Bullard imagers (TI, TIx and MX) last about 1.5 hours. Batteries for the smaller Bullard imagers (T3, T3LT and T3MAX) last about 2.5 hours. Transmitting reduces the time by about 1/3.
    My comments are sometimes educated, sometimes informed and sometimes just blowing smoke...but they are always mine and mine alone and do not reflect upon anyone else (especially my employer).

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    Originally posted by JForristall
    This happened several times, in different environments, in fact at one point, 3 cameras from the same manufacturer, side by side, failed to show any hint or outline of a firefighter positioned fairly close to a heat source. The same manufacturers larger VOX unit in the same environment at the same time showed the target clearly. I will assure you I know how to scan an area, and I teach my students the proper way to do it also. In all these cases, I suspect the problem was related to these units being among the first to be sold in the areas concerned. My guess is it was a (since) corrected problem with software, although I've never confirmed my theory. I will say in more recent trainings I have not seen as drastic a degraded image in the same type of camera from either manufacturer. Stay safe JF
    The image resolution issue you describe could have been caused by the lower dynamic range of most amorphous silicon engines. Dynamic range, for those with less TI experience, refers to the ability of the TI to portray a range of temperatures in the same scene. The wider the dynamic range, the greater the TI's ability to show varying temperatures.
    My comments are sometimes educated, sometimes informed and sometimes just blowing smoke...but they are always mine and mine alone and do not reflect upon anyone else (especially my employer).

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    The image resolution issue you describe could have been caused by the lower dynamic range of most amorphous silicon engines.
    You know, thats exactly what I was thinking....well kinda what I was....ok, I was sleeping..sorry

    Dave

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