Thread: TIC Technology

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    Default TIC Technology

    The following posts bellow were originally made under the "TIC and Glass" topic, I started this new topic because I felt the subject of "TIC Technology" was off of the original topic and some people might be interested in the new topic versus the old topic.

    --------------------
    CAPTSTANM1 Posted:
    I am not a camera salesman, nor do I have ties to any Camera.....so I can speak freely. First of all...I am not knocking any camera as they all contain the same technology. It is just like anything on the market...as someone else said...Cadilac or not Cadilac??? So it is all in what you want and what works well with your department. I will say that recently in my travels (at several trade shows nationwide) I have looked at several different Thermal Imagers. The one that keeps getting my attention is the BULLARD T3Max. Some will argue that the picture is not as clear, but I think the difference is negligible. I go to other cameras to look and always seem to venture back to Bullard for another look. Also recently discussed at length Thermal Imagers with a Bullard Rep and he answered questions that I had even before I asked them. He was also very quick to not talk down about other cameras, in fact he even compliments most of them. But the T3Max seems to be the most versatile/duarble camera I have seen. I like the light weight feature and the ruggedness.

    --------------------

    FIRE304 Posted:
    captstanm1, the T3 was my favorite when we first go ours (2), but within the first month of training I found myself ditching it and grabbing the bigger Bullard MX. Better image, easier to crawl with, easier for multiple people to look at the screen so the Lt can point something out w/o letting go of the camera, much better at picking out small objects and fine detail. Its been about a year an a half now and I always reach for the larger camera first. Don't be fooled into thinking the T3 is small, it is smaller, but not yet small enough. It still heavy enough to be a pain and is too bulky to put in a pocket.

    IMHO I biggest issue for the little camera (pun intended) is not that it does not pick up the little details, but rather they don't jump out at you on the screen. Here's an example:

    The first time I went into our burn building with our then brand spanking new TIC's I had the T3. We were burning hay in smudge pots in the basement to smoke up the place, I entered on the 1st floor and did a quick search. After clearing the floor I swapped cameras with my Lt who had the MX and did another search, only this time I saw cracks in the floor. More accurately I saw where the heat from the smudge pot below was rising up throught the planks in the floor. I also could see the hotter nail heads over the fire and many other small details that I missed with the T3. Without going into the basement I was able to tell exactly where the pot (more of a cauldron about 3' across) was sitting by looking at its heat signature coming through the floor. I grabbed the T3 back and sure enough I could see the same details but they had not jumped out at me on the smaller screen.

    In later training I found a victim under a pile of drywall because I was able to see a very small patch of him, the crew with the T3 walked right by. In a side by side compairison, the same spot of white was there, it just did not catch the operator's attention the way the MX did.

    Our SOG now keeps the T3's for attack crew use, the MX for the search crew.

    --------------------

    If you have any questions on the various types of TIC Technology please post them here. Also if you have had any good or bad experiences please share them.

    Thanks!
    Mike Richardson
    Captain, Training Officer
    St Matthews FD, Louisville KY
    "aka TIman"
    richardson@stmatthewsfd.com

    TI Training = www.safe-ir.com

    The information and views above are in no way associated with my employer, and are strictly my own.

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    I am not starting this topic on TIC Technology to try and advise anyone that a certain type of TIC Technology is better than any other, I am just trying to make sure that everyone understands that the technology in Thermal Imaging Cameras varies and it is very important for you to know the Pro’s and Con’s of the particular technology that you are using.

    Both CAPTSTANM1 and FIRE304 brought out some of those differences in their original posts.

    Since a picture is worth a thousand words, take a look at the following photos to get an idea of how the different technologies in thermal imaging cameras can produce almost the same or a very different result viewing the same situation.

    If you are not sure what the various different types of technology are, check out SAFE-IR’s website at: http://www.safe-ir.com/links.htm

    There will also be more photos and explanations coming.

    Photo 1
    This is 3 different types of technology
    Top – BST Technology
    Mid – VOX (Vanadium Oxide) Microbolometer
    Bot – AS (Amorphous Silicon) Microbolometer
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    Last edited by torichardson; 02-23-2004 at 05:42 PM.
    Mike Richardson
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    The information and views above are in no way associated with my employer, and are strictly my own.

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    Here is another one.

    This is the same exact fire condition, but the 3 different technologies are obviously not displaying the condition in the same manner.

    It is critical that you can properly interpret the image that your TIC is displaying. If you take what you have learned with one type of technology and try to apply it to another you may find yourself in trouble very quickly.

    Photo 2
    This is 3 different types of technology
    Top – BST Technology
    Mid – VOX (Vanadium Oxide) Microbolometer
    Bot – AS (Amorphous Silicon) Microbolometer

    There will also be more photos and explanations coming.
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    Mike Richardson
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    richardson@stmatthewsfd.com

    TI Training = www.safe-ir.com

    The information and views above are in no way associated with my employer, and are strictly my own.

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    Here is another one.

    This is the exact same fire condition in a wall, but the 3 different technologies are obviously displaying it differently.

    It is critical that you can properly interpret the image that your TIC is displaying. Depending on the image you get from your TIC and how you interpret it in this situation you may call for a water can or a second alarm.

    Photo 3
    This is 3 different types of technology
    Top – BST Technology
    Mid – VOX (Vanadium Oxide) Microbolometer
    Bot – AS (Amorphous Silicon) Microbolometer

    There will also be more photos and explanations coming.
    Attached Images Attached Images  
    Mike Richardson
    Captain, Training Officer
    St Matthews FD, Louisville KY
    "aka TIman"
    richardson@stmatthewsfd.com

    TI Training = www.safe-ir.com

    The information and views above are in no way associated with my employer, and are strictly my own.

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    Thanks for the great pic's Mike.

    I really like the ones of the wall fire.

    Can you give us a little more on which cameras use which technology. If I am not mistaken, my MX is a BST and the T3 is a Microbolometer, but I don't know which type off hand.

    Thanks
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    Fire304,

    If you check out the link to the SAFE-IR site (http://www.safe-ir.com/links.htm) you will find the run down on the various TICs and the technology they are based on.

    The top photos are from a BST based imager, this could be from a TIC like a Bullard TIx, ISG K-90, or Scott Eagle.

    The middle photos are from a VOX or Vanadium Oxide Microbolometer based imager, this could be from a TIC like a Bullard MX or MSA 4000.

    The bottom photos are from a ASi or Amorphous Silicon Microbolometer based imager, this could be from a Bullard T3 or ISG K-80.

    Hope this helps, more to come!
    Last edited by torichardson; 02-24-2004 at 01:08 AM.
    Mike Richardson
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    The information and views above are in no way associated with my employer, and are strictly my own.

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    Mike -

    Is there any one camera that allows a longer life -- I know if I were able to look at schematics - and new all the resistances of the components - I'd be able to calculate the milliamp draw upon the battery.

    To be more correct - is there any one camera that utilizes a technology that allows for longer use of the camera?
    Marc

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    FFMcDonald,

    I don't intend to step on Mike's thread, but the current draw of cameras is a system-level issue, not just a technology issue. The whole package is a detector and its electronics, a display and its driver, and a battery and its power management. There are also accessories like transmitters that really draw a lot of current and reduce your camera operating time.

    Every manufacturer weighs the features and benefits of each and comes up with a solution. It is usually based on interviews with potential customers (folks who are in the fire service).

    At ISG, we have two cameras that have optional long-life batteries.

    The K80 has a 4- and a 7-hour battery option and the K1000 Elite has a 3- and a 5-hour battery option. The trade off is that the longer-life batteries weigh about 3 ounces more.

    Additionally, the K90 uses a CRT display instead of an LCD. CRTs draw less power so we get more time out of the battery.

    A last point, as any battery gets older or is used an rechared a lot, it loses some of its ability to keep a full charge. Conditioning your battery and testing it regularly in your camera will let you know what to expect from the battery in your camera system.

    As I said, I don't intend to step on Mike's thread, so I'll leave it at that.

    David Fisher
    ISG Thermal Systems
    Business Development Manager
    www.isgfire.com

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    Hey Dave,

    It’s not my thread, it’s everyone’s thread, so feel free to step all you want. Seriously, the more that everyone gets involved here the more that everyone will learn, so everyone please join in, there are no “bad” questions or comments.

    On the Power Issue,
    I think Dave pretty much covered it, I would drive home the following points:
    1. Make SURE you know how long your TIC will REALLY operate, with and without additional features like transmitters. The only way to really know this is to start with YOUR batteries with a full charge, turn the unit on, start a stop watch, and see what you get. I would be very careful about relying solely on any Sales & Marketing numbers to tell you how long the TIC will run.

    2. The day you start using a battery, is the day it starts to lose its ability to hold a charge. Actually it may have already started to lose its ability to hold a charge before it even got to you because it had been setting on a shelf in warehouse for months. As Dave pointed out you need to frequently condition and test your batteries to see if they are holding the intended charge. I can’t give you the power specs here because they vary from battery to battery. If you are not sure about you batteries power specs then please check the Owners Manual or contact your TIC Rep/Manufacturer.

    3. A number of things can affect a batteries ability to hold a charge to include:
    Age – a TIC battery could last as little as 6 months or as long as 2 years, the only way to know for sure is to keep testing them.
    Cold or Heat – temperature extremes can impact a battery temporarily or long term. Keep you batteries out of the extremes, and if they are exposed verify their charge levels.
    Corrosion – you must keep your batteries and the battery contacts in your TICs DRY, no matter what the REP has told you to try and sell you the TIC. Short term exposure to water should not be a problem for any TIC or battery, but if you leave a wet battery in a TIC for a period of time you will most likely have some corrosion at the battery or the contacts. It is important to regularly inspect both for any sings of corrosion.

    There are a number of articles on the Bullard TI website and other Manufactures websites about TIC Maintenance and Batteries, please check them out if you have questions about your TIC. If you don’t have any luck there then don’t hesitate to ask here, I am sure someone here can get you the answers you need.

    Good Luck, Stay Safe,
    Mike Richardson
    Captain, Training Officer
    St Matthews FD, Louisville KY
    "aka TIman"
    richardson@stmatthewsfd.com

    TI Training = www.safe-ir.com

    The information and views above are in no way associated with my employer, and are strictly my own.

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    As an easy to remember GENERAL guide,remember if you are transmitting images your battery life will be cut by about 50%,varies SLIGHTLY by camera mfg.T.C.

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    Mike, great post!, the pictures tell quite a bit about the differences in cameras. I think it may help people see why I say, "It's not bad, good and better" but rather "DIFFERENT" and once again why Safe-IR only recommends CAMERA - SPECIFIC training. Your photos touch on some of the reasons why. As you know, even some manufacturers are not aware of how we use these things, although that too is becoming a thing of the past because of things like these forums and customer feedback. As Mike said, keep the questions and comments coming! Stay safe John F.

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    I under stand the importance of training aimed at what you will be useing.

    So, any pointers on the MSA 5000? We just ordered one off of the Fire Act 03 money we recieved. We dont have it in house yet, but its never to soon to start gathering information.

    Thanks
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    Originally posted by davidf
    .Additionally, the K90 uses a CRT display instead of an LCD. CRTs draw less power so we get more time out of the battery.
    Hu? It was my understanding the CRT's draw much more power than LCD's. In don't know about in TIC's but in the computer world you'll never see a battery powered CRT, and when I switched from a CRT to an LCD on my desk top I actually noticed a reduction in my monthly electrical bills. Am I missing something? Are the little CRT's used in TICs more efficient?
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    It's an able little camera.Don't drop the battery on the fireground though,you'll see why when you get the camera.Many of the issues and images you see here are similar to what you'll see thru the 5000.T.C.

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    On the CRT versus LCD Issue:
    Most CRTs in TICs are around 2-3 inches versus the LCDs which are 4-5 inches. I am sure this has some impact on the different power draws. I also know a lot of the LCD based units have additional onscreen displays that require more processing and power. I am sure one of the Daves can give you more detailed info since ISG has TICs with both a CRT and LCD display. To me the difference in power draw is not a big issue, it is the ability to view the display easily from multiple distances and viewing angles, and I have had the best luck with big LCDs (just my opinion).


    On Battery Life:
    If you give me a TIC that will run for 60 minutes I am good to go, if the fire lasts any longer I will not need a TIC just a lot of Master Streams. Haz Mat would probably be the one application where a long 3-4 hour battery life would be a worthwhile issue (once again just my opinion for what its worth).


    Here is another one on the technology differences:
    On the top you have a BST based unit. BST units have a unique thing they do called “Haloing”. If you look at the white windows you will notice a dark ring or “Halo” around them. With a BST unit you will typically get a “Halo” around strong concentrated IR sources or in areas where you have a very strong contrast in temperature differences. With a BST unit this can be a good way to pick out “Hot Spots” or areas you need to investigate.

    On the bottom you have a VOX Microbolometer based unit. Microbolometers tend to adjust their sensitivity / dynamic range so you can get an image that varies and may be very different than what you would see with a BST unit. In this case the TIC has adjusted its dynamic range/sensitivity so the image is much lighter than the BST image. If you will notice Microbolometer based units do not “Halo”.

    Please keep the questions and comments coming.

    Good Luck, Stay Safe,
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    Mike Richardson
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    The information and views above are in no way associated with my employer, and are strictly my own.

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    This could mess with the mind. Mike, Are we seeing furniture through the sliding GLASS doors? OR, could it be that you're fulfilling my request for photos on the TIC/glass scenario I brought up? Wait, I know it's an open garage door and the furniture is stored inside!
    I bet you all thought this image interpretation stuff was easy all the time! John F.
    Last edited by JForristall; 02-25-2004 at 08:11 PM.

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    Originally posted by JForristall
    OR, could it be that you're fulfilling my request for photos on the TIC/glass scenario I brought up?
    What was the scenario again? We can work on creating the images for posting and training.
    My comments are sometimes educated, sometimes informed and sometimes just blowing smoke...but they are always mine and mine alone and do not reflect upon anyone else (especially my employer).

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    Here is another one that shows the differences in the technology, very same scene very different images.

    3 different types of technology
    Top – BST Technology
    Mid – VOX (Vanadium Oxide) Microbolometer
    Bot – AS (Amorphous Silicon) Microbolometer

    The VOX Microbolometer based unit (middle pic) has changed its sensitivity/dynamic range settings and as a result it is showing a lot more IR energy than the other 2 TICs. Some might interpret this image as indicating an unsafe heat level at the roof others would understand that the TIC is changing its sensitivity/dynamic range settings. How could you tell this? If you compare roof of the “fire building” to the roof of the surrounding buildings you will see that they are the same shade/color, which basically indicates they are in the same “ball park” as far as temperature goes. Experience and understanding are key if you are going to use the TIC safely and to it fullest potential. When you are in doubt about what a TIC is showing you always get a “second opinion” based on good basic firefighting practices and always err in the favor of safety.

    Good Luck, Stay Safe,
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    Originally posted by torichardson
    If you compare roof of the “fire building” to the roof of the surrounding buildings you will see that they are the same shade/color, which basically indicates they are in the same “ball park” as far as temperature goes.
    In all 3, you can also compare the temperatures to the firefighter. In 2 of them, the FF is gray, like the floor around the vent and the roofs in the background. These show the vent as the hottest item.

    With the VOx, the FF is white like the roofs and floor, and the vent is also white. I'd suggest this occurs not because the FF and roofs are hot, but because the VOx has a wider dynamic range...and it is trying to account for the big black thing in the top half of the picture.

    The sky has no surface, so the imager treats it as ZERO for the most part. Compared to "zero," the roofs and vent hole are "hot." Because the VOX can accomodate a wider range of temperatures, it groups the "hotter" items together to account for the sky. Since firefighting imagers are designed mostly for interior operations, they often have trouble when there is a lot of sky in the background. Remember, your imager always shows RELATIVE surface temperature differences.

    Constant training and use are the only way to really get comfortable with thermal imagers.
    Last edited by firemanjb; 03-04-2004 at 08:25 AM.
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    I've started using my hand as a relative temp gauge. It is often impossible to look at two things not in the same "frame" to compair their tempature (I discovered this technique while looking for a hot brake one night). Even when things are in frame together, their relative temp and the surounding area can make hot (more correctly, warm) things look too hot such as looking at a wall with a hot water pipe inside. By placing my hand into the field of view I can force the dynamic range into the same exposure rate. It works even better if you can unglove your hand.
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    304,Hope I taught you better not to do that in a fire bldg(snicker).How about a raytek?T.C.

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    Haha TC, no gloves off in fire building, hold on let me write that down on the palm of my hand so I'll remember it. We did some RIT training last week and Resq14 pulled his gloves off to tie a knot, well the instructor reached down and "lost" the gloves on him (I was the victim and the only one who was not blind folded). So the RIT team ended up having to haul him out too since he "burnt" his hands. Lesson learned.
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    OUCH! Negative. The gloves CAN come off. That was clearly stated in the class. Just when you shove them under your knee for safekeeping, don't be a jackass like I was and crawl off without them! Put 'em back on once you're done with fine motor skills. Given your position with the SCBA waist straps, it was required for harness conversion. The guy leading the evolution hadn't gone through the same class we had, and I guess was a little surprised when the gloves came off.

    And besides, "IT'S 250 degrees YOUR'RE BURNED" was a little unrealistic given the scenario (2" off the floor, no fire). If it's so damn hot that I can't have bare skin on the floor, I think I'd have a hose ****ing water all over the downed FF and the crew along with some ventilation.

    On topic, I think the posts on TIC's in the past month or so have been incredibly good. Great information.
    Last edited by Resq14; 03-04-2004 at 03:16 AM.
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    Hehe,How about a piece of webbing?Eliminates the need to rearrange Scba straps.I'm beginning to feel a road trip coming on! You guys are having waaay too much fun.T.C.

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    14 I knew you were lurking, figured you'd come out on that post Yeah, I thought it was a little silly too, but it was fun training. You noticed that too about the training? When we recieved those compliments that we had done such a good job I was thinking, geez, we've only been at this for a few weeks now, you guys have had your RIT team for years. Being fresh out of the class helps us be on the same page and that is key to good team work.

    Yeah, if it were 250 degrees I would have been well done by the time you found me, never mind by the time those clown got through messing with your webbing.

    Ah, webbing, no TC, we had some fun with that too. 14 tried to use some on me, and it was OK until he passed it off to some other FF's who were unfamiliar with it. They spent the next 5 minutes playing with it rather than getting me to the door 15 feet away (which is probably why 14 got "burned" so badly and ended up getting lost hehe ). We are currently discussing what the team will carry, and I get the feeling a 15' piece of webbing will be the final decision.

    Oh, and any time you want to come play TC, give us a call!
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