Why register? ...To Enhance Your Experience
+ Reply to Thread
Page 2 of 7 FirstFirst 12345 ... LastLast
Results 21 to 40 of 122
  1. #21
    Forum Member firespec35's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    Milford MI USA
    Posts
    213

    Default

    When I was in the academy in '98 (Yes, I know I'm still a pup, I bow to the mighty veterans knowledge) They told us that the bowline was not safe on kernmantle rope and the "8" series of knots were much safer. I haven't heard anything to the contrary since.


  2. #22
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2000
    Location
    Somewhere in the Backcountry...
    Posts
    176

    Default

    When I was in the academy in '98 <snip> They told us that the bowline was not safe on kernmantle rope and the "8" series of knots were much safer. I haven't heard anything to the contrary since.
    Sigh - there it is - the gospel taught to many.

  3. #23
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2000
    Posts
    24

    Default

    With the off chance of sounding argumentative...

    RemptyP,

    He did ask "Which knot do you use when attaching a lowering line to a stokes basket for a vertical lower and why, the bowline or a figure 8?" We were just giving him options to try and see which one they like. No one is trying to be a "guru" here. We are giving him the options he asked for.
    *~~~John J. Troyer~~~*
    -Sedgwick County FD Wichita, KS
    Lieutenant - Tech Rescue Station #37B
    -Hutchinson Community College
    Instructor - OSHA, Fire, Rescue
    -Norwich Fire Department
    Volunteer Firefighter

    Stay safe and remember, Gravity never sleeps!

  4. #24
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    Pennsdale, PA
    Posts
    47

    Default

    My "guru" comment was in response to the several postings of "I was taught" that this or that is not to be used. What evidence did the instructor cite to the students that the bowline is unsafe in kernmantle rope? What studies were done? Why are we accepting of these blanket statements by instructors without hard evidence to back up their statements? I infer, from these postings, that we have a group of young rescuers who have accepted as gospel whatever their instructor fed them in their first course. When I first started in rescue we routinely used mechanical camming devices as belays. Then some people did some reproducible testing and discovered that those mechanical devices may not be as safe as other methods in instances where the belay could be shock loaded, which led to changes in the way many people belay. Rope rescue as we know it today is a very young discipline and very little scientific study has been done regarding our methods. That is something something that those of us in the trenches should be pushing for - quantitative information on what best practices are.

  5. #25
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2001
    Posts
    277

    Default

    Rigging for Rescue from Invermere, B.C. and Ouray, Colorado(sp?) are an excellent source of information for testing done on rescue techniques. They did a demonstration at the technical rescue symposium a couple years ago showing the dangers of attaching the belay to the dorsal d-ring. There is also some great info on the unnecessary danger presented by the use of shock absorbers in rescue systems. I am taking one of their courses this year. They encourage you to question everything and make them prove it to you. You can also bring some gear to do destructive testing at their facility.
    Sometimes, in order to make an operation idiot proof, you must remove the idiot!

  6. #26
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2000
    Location
    Somewhere in the Backcountry...
    Posts
    176

    Default

    Some more good sources:
    www.sarbc.org (Search and Rescue Society of British Columbia) for info. and links to several good sites.
    ITRS (International Technical Rescue Symp.) was also mentioned - another great source for info. For a couple hundred bucks you can exchange ideas with some of the most experienced rope rescue people around.

    Want to expand you horizons even more - take one of the Rigging for Rescue classes. Tower rescues? Try Reed Thorne's Ropes That Rescue classes. CMC, Rescue3, and many others are worth checking out.

    Never be afraid to ask, "why?"

    The better you understanding the hows/whys - the better you'll be at handling a complex range of rescue scenarios.

    Finally, do some of your own testing. Be rigorous and thorough about it. Repeat it, analyze it, have someone else repeat it. Share the info with readers of this forum and others. Building the knowledge base of technical rescue can only help us all.

  7. #27
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Posts
    1

    Default

    At our department the figure od eight knot is the only knot used when it comes to raising anything with patients, the only time I will use a bowline if for hoisting equipment and even then a figure of eight is better. The figure of eight knoe is used with confined space rescue as well as high angle rescue. I believe this is the better knot to know.

  8. #28
    Keepin it real Fyrechicken's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2001
    Location
    Erial, New Jersey
    Posts
    287

    Default

    I believe MtnRsq said it best below,

    Originally posted by MtnRsq

    A correctly tied/dressed bowline or figure-8 will serve you well.
    As long as the knot will hold a life-safety rated load, who cares what knot it is, let it be a bowline, fiqure-8, butterfly, fiqure-9 or whatever. As long as you pratice and have a way to attach the rope to the basket and patient then you shouldn't have a problem. It's good to see people asking how it's done else where.

    I like to think "You can never have too many tools in your tool box" Don't limit yourself in how you do things, go out and learn what the other rescuers do.
    Peace to our fallen brothers...

    9/11/01 NYC WTC

    7/4/02 Gloucester City, NJ

    -=IACOJ=- The proof is in the crust

    ......Work hard, play hard, and always have fun along the way......

  9. #29
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Posts
    8

    Default

    Great thread with a lot of good information. I too prefer the figure 9...but my department hasn't started using it yet. resqtek...A+ for spelling!

  10. #30
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2000
    Location
    Candler, NC USA
    Posts
    88

    Default

    I like to use the 8 instead of a bowline. Simply put, folks can tie an 8 easier than a bowline. Also, the strength of the 8 is a little greater than the bowline. In a nut shell, use a knot that is easy to learn, easy to tie, easy to teach, and easy to untie. Just seems like the 8 works best for us. Also, a safety is not really needed with an 8, but it is essential for the bowline.
    Tell me, I will forget. Show me, I will remember. Involve me, I will understand.

  11. #31
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2001
    Posts
    277

    Default

    Is the strength of the knot really an issue? If you are sressing your system to the point that the 5-10% difference in strength between the knots is the deciding factor then the problem isn't the choice of knot but rather the techniques you are using. Interestingly enough, while I was at rigging for rescue recently I took a piece of 12.7mm(1/2") rope and tied a figure eight in one end and a bowline in the other. We hooked it up to the slow pull bench to use as a test pull to ensure the data aquisition equipment was working. What do you suppose happened? I thought for sure that the bowline would break but infact the figure 8 broke. Now before anyone jumps on me, I realise the validity of a single test and that multiple tests would need to be done for accuracy but if the figure 8 is so much stronger than you would think that under any circumstance the bowline would break. The most interesting part of this test was when we tried to untie the knots. The figure 8 was impossible to untie where the bowline could be loosened off with one thumb. The load cell did not capture the peak force but based on other tests throughout the day, it would have been about 28kn(6300lbf). The bowline has some great applications for rescue and should not be ignored based on the passing down of folklore from one close minded instructor to another.
    Sometimes, in order to make an operation idiot proof, you must remove the idiot!

  12. #32
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2000
    Location
    Candler, NC USA
    Posts
    88

    Cool

    I do realize that there is a place for a bowline. Fact of the matter is that the 8 is much easier for someone to learn how to tie. Also, the safety knot HAS to be in place for the bowline to be safe. Not so with the 8.
    Tell me, I will forget. Show me, I will remember. Involve me, I will understand.

  13. #33
    FIGJAM lutan1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Location
    I come from The Land Down Under!
    Posts
    1,833

    Default

    Fact of the matter is that the 8 is much easier for someone to learn how to tie.
    I'm with benford on this one. I've seen more people stuff up the bowline versus the 8 family of knots.
    Luke

  14. #34
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Valencia, PA US
    Posts
    12

    Default

    a figure 9 is just like a figure 8 except it has a half a wrap more ... the figure 8 is just like an over hand knot with a half wrap more so just go a full wrap and you have a 9 testing is in and there is only 9% strength lose with the 9

  15. #35
    MembersZone Subscriber tecrsq's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Cherokee County Georgia
    Posts
    60

    Default proper lknot for attachment to Litter Basket

    Figure Eight on Bight with overhand bend safety!

    -Retains more of the ropes tensile strength

    -Safer knot for Life Safety Ops.
    Last edited by tecrsq; 02-13-2005 at 07:40 PM.
    TecRsq
    North Georgia

    - Let No Mans Ghost Come Back To Say My Fire Training Let Me Down -

  16. #36
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    235

    Default Re: proper lknot for attachment to Litter Basket

    Originally posted by tecrsq
    Figure Eight on Bight with double overhand bend safety!

    -Retains more of the ropes tensile strength

    -Safer knot for Life Safety Ops.
    I'm pretty sure I know what you're getting at, but a bend is whan you join two ropes together. Also, what need is there for a double overhand safety on an inherently safe knot? Why not use a main line and two belay lines, why not use 1' rope? Where does the dogma and paranoia end?

  17. #37
    Keepin it real Fyrechicken's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2001
    Location
    Erial, New Jersey
    Posts
    287

    Default

    Figure Eight on Bight with double overhand bend safety!

    -Retains more of the ropes tensile strength

    -Safer knot for Life Safety Ops.

    I've seen people go as far as using a fisherman's knot (prusik) for the safety on some of theses knots.
    Peace to our fallen brothers...

    9/11/01 NYC WTC

    7/4/02 Gloucester City, NJ

    -=IACOJ=- The proof is in the crust

    ......Work hard, play hard, and always have fun along the way......

  18. #38
    dazed and confused Resq14's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2000
    Location
    New England
    Posts
    1,993

    Default

    I'll echo the "Where does the dogma and paranoia end?" sentiment...
    God Bless America!Remember all have given some, but some have given all.
    Google Is Your Friend™Helpful forum tip - a "must see" if you're new here
    Click this to search FH Forums!

  19. #39
    MembersZone Subscriber rescue542's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    Green Valley, AZ
    Posts
    103

    Default

    When I instruct rope rescue I teach to use one of the following for the mainline attachment to a basket, a directional figure 8, or a butterfly as it has to be a midline knot as the long tail is then left for the rescuer to attach to utilizing either a figure 8 or figure 9 knot. We also teach to add prusiks to the tail in order to allow the rescuer to adjust his level relative to the victim in the basket. We utilize a barrel knot as a safety knot.

    I believe there are other acceptable methods of securing the basket to the mainline, but in my experience this seems to be the simplest and easiest to teach and for the student to retain. Most firefighters that I know don't regularly tie knots the way they should. The guys that are really interested in rope work can tie them with their eyes closed and every department I know of has a few of these guys. Like any other occupation you cant be an expert in every aspect of your occupation but you have to be familiar with every aspect of your occupation. As an officer you have to know which of your men are proficient in which discipline and rely on them for their expertise if it is an area you are not an expert in.

  20. #40
    Forum Member stretch13's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Memphis, TN
    Posts
    79

    Default

    I am still amazed at everyone's reaction to the good ole bowline. When I first came on the FD, everyone talked about the bowline like it was a second rate knot, and after joining, that was the first time I had ever heard about tying a "safety" on it. Now here it is almost 12 years later, and I still think it is a great knot, and probably one of the easiest to tie, but we use the family of 8 knots here.
    As for the bowline, I spent 11 years in the Navy as a Bosun's Mate, we worked with line every day, not on a few calls or training, and I have tied it on every type of line you can think of, everything from something as small as a shoelace, to 3 inch diameter, all without a safety, and have never saw one slip or heard of one slip. One thing is for sure with it, after a load is put on it, it is probably the easiest to untie.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts