1. #51
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    I use the double granny for lowering objects in a stokes. If there is a person I use the triple granny.

    Never failed me.
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    I like and use the "Long Tail Interlocking Bowline" but there are guys on our team that like to use "Fig 8s". Both knots if done propperly work well.

    The LTIB takes less equipment to make than the F8.

    I have told our guys that they can choose which system that they will use but it needs be done right. Even though I like the LTIB I would much rather see a propperly rigged F8 system than an impropperly tied LTIB system.
    Last edited by MEDIC0372; 07-31-2006 at 05:27 PM.

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    We use a double loop fig.8 for the simple fact it is the strongest knot.
    (Matter of opinion? Maybe...but it is mine and I am the one who has the final decision)

    I have seen some post in this thread that refer to the minimal difference in 80% and 70% strength. My thought on that...would you rather have an 80% chance of living or a 70% chance of living.

    The bowline is being phased out in Tech. Rescue. There's a reason for that. Simply, it is not the best knot for the job.

    Our system is Simple: Double loop fig.8, To a swivel, to a rigging plate, to litter straps.
    All attached with 1/2in biners.
    Tender is attached to system with daisy chain dynema
    Of course each (litter and tender) have safeties.

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    What ever you use is fine, as long as you understand the theory and physics behind rigging. As I stated earlier there is a small difference in strength reduction between these two knots and if the success or your comfort of the system is dependant on this small difference….maybe you shouldn’t be “the one who has the final decision!! Over the last couple of years I have attended classes in British Columbia, Colorado, Arizona, and California and not one school stated they were phasing out the bowline, but some have even preferred we use bowlines over the family of 8s. Both knots have their advantages and disadvantages but like any other knot…if not tied correctly they will fail. I have yet to experience or even hear about a system failing solely on the fact that it was tied with a bowline and not a figure 8. If you understood the advantages of the bowline you would not classify it as “not the best knot for the job!!” You system sounds simple but very equipment intensive and creates a huge gain between the end of the figure 8 loops and the bottom of the basket which could become a huge issue when operating in tight spaces. You can accomplish the same thing with the same amount of versatility with less hardware. When you refer to litter and tender as having safeties are you referring to a two rope system (main and belay)? Just remember that there are a hundred different ways to accomplish a single task in the tech rope world. Each will have their advantages and disadvantages but more importantly they should be efficient and versatile so to be able to adapt to issues that may arise. Understand the “WHY” we rig the way we do and not just the “how”. The system can be simple but the rigger should not.

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    I've just reviewed this entire thread and am amazed at the ingorance and dogma that pervades the rope rescue community.

    Quote Originally Posted by fddd160
    Figure eight. The bowline was a good knot for braided rope but the kernmantle rope allows the bowline to slip.
    A loaded bowline cannot slip

    Quote Originally Posted by SPFDRum
    Figure 8 with a safety is correct. With todays synthetic ropes and their core type construction, a bowline causes to much compression and extension at the radius' of the bends.
    You mean "compression and tension", but - as others have pointed out - the strenght difference is insubstantial and far less important than the functionality of the knot.

    Quote Originally Posted by shammrock54
    I was always trained to use a figure 8 w/ a safety.
    A dog is "trained" - a person should be educated to make their own decisions.

    Quote Originally Posted by lutan1
    We always use the figure 8 family of knots. The bowline is too easy to get wrong for so many people.
    In fact, the bowline is a far simpler knot to tie than the figure-8 and requires no dressing. I've seen many more incorrectly tied figure-8s than I have bowlines.

    Quote Originally Posted by ADSNWFLD
    The Bowline should not be used any longer for synthetic rope. It also weakens the rope more then the family of 8 knots.
    "Should" should not be used any more in rescue, as there are so many perfectly functional and safe alternatives.

    Quote Originally Posted by firespec35
    When I was in the academy in '98 (I bow to the mighty veterans knowledge) They told us that the bowline was not safe on kernmantle rope and the "8" series of knots were much safer.
    Bowing to authority is generally a dangerous thing, since you really expose your hindquarters when you do. And so many "veterans" are doing what you're doing now - repeating misinformation and bias.

    Quote Originally Posted by sunfire67
    At our department the figure od eight knot is the only knot used when it comes to raising anything with patients, the only time I will use a bowline if for hoisting equipment and even then a figure of eight is better.
    "Only" - same as "should/should not".

    Quote Originally Posted by benford1
    Simply put, folks can tie an 8 easier than a bowline. In a nut shell, use a knot that is easy to learn, easy to tie, easy to teach, and easy to untie. Just seems like the 8 works best for us. Also, a safety is not really needed with an 8, but it is essential for the bowline.
    The bowline is quicker to tie than a fig-8, as easy to inspect, easier to untie after loading, and doesn't need a back-up knot in the application discussed in this thread

    Quote Originally Posted by ShaversFork
    Figure 8 w/safety backup. Having everyone on the same page, utilizing same knots and rigging will insure a safe,professional rescue.
    Having everyone "on the same page" will insure a limited repertoir of techniques and hence a potentially less safe outcome.

    Quote Originally Posted by ffmav426
    We would use a figure of eight...The reason basically boils down to the directional stress (from my teaching) the figure of 8 in this situation would be experiencing stress in one direction, and it is designed to take this stress.
    The bowline and figure-8 are both loop knots intended to be stressed from loop to standing part. If the stress is from standing part to loop to working end (as with end used for attendant safety), then a figure-8 would be loaded improperly unless it was an inline-8, which is no stronger than a bowline.

    Quote Originally Posted by swcfpd340
    We use a double loop fig.8 for the simple fact it is the strongest knot...would you rather have an 80% chance of living or a 70% chance of living. The bowline is being phased out in Tech. Rescue. There's a reason for that. Simply, it is not the best knot for the job.
    Strongest does not equate to safest. If that were the only factor, then you should be using steel cable.

    The bowline is most certainly NOT being phased out by rescue instructors. It is still, however, being denigrated by the repetition of ignorance and prejudice. In many applications, including the one that started this thread - attachment of mainline to litter - it is arguably the BEST knot, for reasons that the few knowledgable members of this forum have stated.

    The system you describe is excessively complicated and much longer than is either necessary or advisable, significantly limiting the number of applications in which it would work safely. Adding more links to the chain simply creates more potential failure points and makes a system LESS safe, in addition to making the system ungainly and difficult to use in close quarters or with no high directional at the edge.

    Bottom line is this: anyone who offers a blanket condemnation of one of the most used and most useful knots in the rescue toolbox simply shouldn't be involved in rope rescue, let alone instructing.
    aVERT - a Vertical Emergency Response Training
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    Simply this.....

    The bowline is NOT used for rescue applications....period.

    It is used for hauling tools....at best.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TrainingNut
    Simply this.....

    The bowline is NOT used for rescue applications....period.

    It is used for hauling tools....at best.
    The bowline, contrary to your claim of One Commandment absolutism, is possibly the most commonly used knot in high-stress rigging applications, including nautical seamanship, arboreal tree removal, rock-climbing and rappeling, vertical caving, canyoneering, mountaineering, and mountain rescue. AND IT IS TAUGHT BY THE BEST ROPE RESCUE INSTRUCTORS ALL AROUND THE WORLD.

    For the same reason that the Fire Service had to compensate for their lack of knowledge and technical expertise in rope rigging by adding 50% to the globally recognized 10:1 safety factor, there has developed a widespread prejudice against the bowline family of knots, based on ignorance, and passed on from each so-called instructor to their students.

    There is NO objective basis for this prejudice, no empirical study to support it, and no evidence of rigging failures due to the use of bowlines.

    If a trainer has trouble teaching the bowline to his students, that's the fault of the instructor and not the knot, since it is a technically simpler knot to construct than a properly tied, dressed, and set figure-8-on-a-bight or figure-8-followthrough.

    The bowline meets all the criteria of a good rescue knot:
    • easy to tie
    • easy to inspect
    • performs its intended function
    • easy to untie after loading

    Even at the world-standard 10:1 safety factor, the strength of a rope tied in a bowline is not an issue. At 15:1 it is completely irrelevant, since even a 50% loss is already accounted for in the rope safety factor. And anyone who rails about the strength loss of a knot does not understand the mechanics of rope rigging and shouldn't be practicing it, let alone teaching it.

    - Robert
    aVERT - a Vertical Emergency Response Training
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrainingNut
    Simply this.....

    The bowline is NOT used for rescue applications....period.

    It is used for hauling tools....at best.
    This is scary....is there really that much ignorance out there. You claim to be a training nut, judging by the name, but you obviously have not been training as much as you should. If you are confident in your responce, which it sounds like you are, you should at least have an idea of what you are talking about before you make yourself look like an ***, unless you like that!? Riversong is right on point so I will not echo his responce but I hope your are not an instructor and passing on your ignorance to anyone else.

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    Just what I've learned thats all.

    You guys need to take it easy with the personal attack stuff too... I addressed this in another thread as well....I'm just chiming in on a topic like everyone else is, but I'm NOT personally saying things about you am I?
    Last edited by TrainingNut; 08-20-2006 at 09:33 PM.

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrainingNut
    Just what I've learned thats all.
    And that's exactly how ignorance and prejudice gets spread around. Someone gave you the "gospel" and you repeat it without having the experience, the knowledge, or the judgement to make a proper assesment on your own.

    And, then, in your "Age vs Experience" thread, you complain about older firefighters who don't bow down to your years of experience and training in spite of your youth. Perhaps that's because they can see that you have learned little from either.

    - Robert
    aVERT - a Vertical Emergency Response Training
    To Avert Disaster in the Vertical Environment

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    Guys...the Bowline is good for rescue IF DONE IN THE RIGHT WAY!!!

    When used for attaching the litter the Bowline is tied with a long tail (about 6 to 8 feet long) and that tail is tied to somthing BIG (like the tender and/or the litter). Remember there is a Rescue line and a Belay line that both have a Bowline tied and interwoven with the tails tied off (one to the tender and one to the litter or pt).

    This is what makes the Bowline safe in this situation (the tails being tied off).
    They will not slip out.

    What gives the Bowline a bad name in life safety work is it ability to slip out if impropperly loaded (side loaded) without the tail tied off. Also some very stiff rescue rope will not let the knot dress well.

    Use the system that you feel best using...both will work if done right.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MEDIC0372
    Guys...the Bowline is good for rescue IF DONE IN THE RIGHT WAY!!!
    Of course, the same can be said of any knot (or any tool, for that matter). A figure-8 has to be properly tied, dressed, and set (and approximately 50% of the time it is not).

    What gives the Bowline a bad name in life safety work is it ability to slip out if impropperly loaded (side loaded) without the tail tied off. Also some very stiff rescue rope will not let the knot dress well.
    What gives the bowline a bad name is unfamiliarity with the function and value of this most versatile of knots, and lack of knowledge about the mechanics of knots.

    What makes people happy and complacent about the figure-8 family is that it is a secure and stable knot, which is considered so fool-proof that any fool can use it. However, I wouldn't want any fool to be involved in rope rescue.

    The bowline family is a relatively stable but less secure knot, which requires a back-up knot in many applications (some practitioners use a back-up with ALL knots). But the fact that it doesn't cinch up as tightly as the figure-8 family gives the bowline the distinct advantage of being far easier to untie after loading. And, because of its structural simplicity, it doesn't need to be dressed like the figure-8. And there are more variations of the bowline than of the figure-8. It is also much quicker to tie around a fixed object than the figure-8 followthrough.

    As far as stiff rope, there is no stiffer kernmantle rope than that used in caving, yet the bowline is often the knot of choice for vertical caving and cave rescue.

    "Side loading", by which I assume you mean ring loading, is also inappropriate for the figure-8 on a bight. Both loop knots are end loops, meant to be loaded from standing part to loop, not within the loop. For ring loading, a bend is necessary.

    - Robert
    aVERT - a Vertical Emergency Response Training
    To Avert Disaster in the Vertical Environment

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riversong
    And that's exactly how ignorance and prejudice gets spread around. Someone gave you the "gospel" and you repeat it without having the experience, the knowledge, or the judgement to make a proper assesment on your own.

    And, then, in your "Age vs Experience" thread, you complain about older firefighters who don't bow down to your years of experience and training in spite of your youth. Perhaps that's because they can see that you have learned little from either.

    - Robert
    WOW! I can't believe that you can talk so much trash about someone you don't even know....internet forum toughness I guess....listen, enough with the attacks, I never said anything towards you man. Sorry my one thread, and a reply to a knot question really got under your skin that much.

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    Training Nut:

    There are few things in the fire service that generate such a wide range of emotions and ideas as rope rescue. Everybody has heard a "right" way of doing things and a lot of people never look a lot deeper than what they are told. This perpetuates the dogma that is commonly found in rope rescue.

    After years of this dogma, it seems that there is a growing number of people who are not afraid to ask the question: Why are we doing (insert your controversial subject here) ? This is an attempt to understand why things are the way they are and make ourselves better rope rescue technicians.

    Please understand that people are not angry at you, they are upset at the preaching of "always and never" with no quantitative data or real world experience to back it up. Lighten up bro, we're all just trying to learn.

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    DCFD, now see....you got your point across without being nasty about it though.....which is appreciated.

    Thanks for the input DCFD.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TrainingNut
    WOW! I can't believe that you can talk so much trash about someone you don't even know....listen, enough with the attacks... Sorry my one thread, and a reply to a knot question really got under your skin that much.
    I was going to let this slide, buy you're continuing to turn this thread into a personal column about you.

    What "got under my skin" was your repeating the dogma "Never use a bowline in rescue" right after I had responded to two years of posts on this thread and counteracted every fallacious argument about the bowline with facts.

    Then, when I accurately pointed out that a statement such as yours can only be based on ignorance and prejudice (which you later admitted: "it was just what I was taught"), you chose to take it personally.

    Pointing out the obvious, correcting false statements, and calling a spade a spade is not "talking trash" but simply telling it like it is. And, if you don't like the unavoidable conclusions about your "expertise", then I would suggest making an attempt to put the brain in gear before engaging the mouth (or keyboard).

    - Robert
    aVERT - a Vertical Emergency Response Training
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    ...........The End

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    Which knot do you use?
    Velcro?


    Seriously, some good reading here. Thanks for the discussion.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42
    Velcro?
    It might come to that if firefighters who want to do rope rescue can't learn a knot as simple as the bowline, or instructors think they can't teach it.

    - Robert
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    The last FF1 class I ran, we had a rope rescue guy come and teach the ropes/knots section. He did not teach students the bowline. When I asked why, he said it's because it's not a recommended knot anymore. I asked by who and he didn't know, he heard it somewhere. Students were taught the knot in the next class.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42
    he said it's because it's not a recommended knot anymore.
    Ironically, the bowline-with-a-bight used to be in the Essentials of Firefighting training manual, as a way to improvise a life-safety harness with the end of the rope. Some committee decided to remove it, probably because commercial (NFPA) harnesses became widely available.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riversong
    Ironically, the bowline-with-a-bight used to be in the Essentials of Firefighting training manual, as a way to improvise a life-safety harness with the end of the rope. Some committee decided to remove it, probably because commercial (NFPA) harnesses became widely available.

    I still demonstrate and teach that version of the improvised life safety harness as well as several others and consider it a staple of my class content.

    Seems to still be a very quick, safe and viable option when one has shown the ability to rig it.

    Nice option in a big bag-o-tricks!
    TecRsq
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86
    I use the double granny for lowering objects in a stokes. If there is a person I use the triple granny.

    Never failed me.
    Blasphemy ......

    LMAO cause you aint right.
    TecRsq
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    Lightbulb Come on Guys

    First off if all of you are Techs according to NFPA. And the courses you took were all from a certified Instructor then arguing over what knot works best is silly. Many forms of rechniques are out there in the Rope rescue world. The method you had been taught may not be the same as another city. In order to be successful in rope I recommend learning other rope rescue methods.
    For instance we do not use a 2 rope system for a rescuer on a rappel many use the belay line we do not..How ever we send 2 rescuer's over a edge tethered off to each other. THAT COVERS YOU SAFETY LINE..The NFPA standard for Technical rescue has guidlines for you to follow it doesnt tell us what we can or can not use..As for a bowline it works in the rescue worls and so does a Fig 8. What ever you choose make sure its done right.

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    JAFA62,
    I have video footage of drop tests performed on that system you use. My department used to use the same system until they saw the video footage. In a couple instances, there was a yard sale of rescue randy parts on the ground!

    Being in Ontario, you need to be careful that you are not in violation of your provincial fall protection laws. Most provinces do not have exemptions for rescue personnel and therefore you must comply with the OH&S laws. There have been a few teams stung by this when using single rope techniques in Canada.

    As far as the NFPA tech thing goes.....some of the most knowledgable people in the rope rescue community are not certified technicians. Having the fancy certificate does not make one a competent rigger.
    Sometimes, in order to make an operation idiot proof, you must remove the idiot!

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