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  1. #61
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    Guys...the Bowline is good for rescue IF DONE IN THE RIGHT WAY!!!

    When used for attaching the litter the Bowline is tied with a long tail (about 6 to 8 feet long) and that tail is tied to somthing BIG (like the tender and/or the litter). Remember there is a Rescue line and a Belay line that both have a Bowline tied and interwoven with the tails tied off (one to the tender and one to the litter or pt).

    This is what makes the Bowline safe in this situation (the tails being tied off).
    They will not slip out.

    What gives the Bowline a bad name in life safety work is it ability to slip out if impropperly loaded (side loaded) without the tail tied off. Also some very stiff rescue rope will not let the knot dress well.

    Use the system that you feel best using...both will work if done right.


  2. #62
    Forum Member Riversong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MEDIC0372
    Guys...the Bowline is good for rescue IF DONE IN THE RIGHT WAY!!!
    Of course, the same can be said of any knot (or any tool, for that matter). A figure-8 has to be properly tied, dressed, and set (and approximately 50% of the time it is not).

    What gives the Bowline a bad name in life safety work is it ability to slip out if impropperly loaded (side loaded) without the tail tied off. Also some very stiff rescue rope will not let the knot dress well.
    What gives the bowline a bad name is unfamiliarity with the function and value of this most versatile of knots, and lack of knowledge about the mechanics of knots.

    What makes people happy and complacent about the figure-8 family is that it is a secure and stable knot, which is considered so fool-proof that any fool can use it. However, I wouldn't want any fool to be involved in rope rescue.

    The bowline family is a relatively stable but less secure knot, which requires a back-up knot in many applications (some practitioners use a back-up with ALL knots). But the fact that it doesn't cinch up as tightly as the figure-8 family gives the bowline the distinct advantage of being far easier to untie after loading. And, because of its structural simplicity, it doesn't need to be dressed like the figure-8. And there are more variations of the bowline than of the figure-8. It is also much quicker to tie around a fixed object than the figure-8 followthrough.

    As far as stiff rope, there is no stiffer kernmantle rope than that used in caving, yet the bowline is often the knot of choice for vertical caving and cave rescue.

    "Side loading", by which I assume you mean ring loading, is also inappropriate for the figure-8 on a bight. Both loop knots are end loops, meant to be loaded from standing part to loop, not within the loop. For ring loading, a bend is necessary.

    - Robert
    aVERT - a Vertical Emergency Response Training
    To Avert Disaster in the Vertical Environment

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riversong
    And that's exactly how ignorance and prejudice gets spread around. Someone gave you the "gospel" and you repeat it without having the experience, the knowledge, or the judgement to make a proper assesment on your own.

    And, then, in your "Age vs Experience" thread, you complain about older firefighters who don't bow down to your years of experience and training in spite of your youth. Perhaps that's because they can see that you have learned little from either.

    - Robert
    WOW! I can't believe that you can talk so much trash about someone you don't even know....internet forum toughness I guess....listen, enough with the attacks, I never said anything towards you man. Sorry my one thread, and a reply to a knot question really got under your skin that much.

  4. #64
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    Training Nut:

    There are few things in the fire service that generate such a wide range of emotions and ideas as rope rescue. Everybody has heard a "right" way of doing things and a lot of people never look a lot deeper than what they are told. This perpetuates the dogma that is commonly found in rope rescue.

    After years of this dogma, it seems that there is a growing number of people who are not afraid to ask the question: Why are we doing (insert your controversial subject here) ? This is an attempt to understand why things are the way they are and make ourselves better rope rescue technicians.

    Please understand that people are not angry at you, they are upset at the preaching of "always and never" with no quantitative data or real world experience to back it up. Lighten up bro, we're all just trying to learn.

  5. #65
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    DCFD, now see....you got your point across without being nasty about it though.....which is appreciated.

    Thanks for the input DCFD.

  6. #66
    Forum Member Riversong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrainingNut
    WOW! I can't believe that you can talk so much trash about someone you don't even know....listen, enough with the attacks... Sorry my one thread, and a reply to a knot question really got under your skin that much.
    I was going to let this slide, buy you're continuing to turn this thread into a personal column about you.

    What "got under my skin" was your repeating the dogma "Never use a bowline in rescue" right after I had responded to two years of posts on this thread and counteracted every fallacious argument about the bowline with facts.

    Then, when I accurately pointed out that a statement such as yours can only be based on ignorance and prejudice (which you later admitted: "it was just what I was taught"), you chose to take it personally.

    Pointing out the obvious, correcting false statements, and calling a spade a spade is not "talking trash" but simply telling it like it is. And, if you don't like the unavoidable conclusions about your "expertise", then I would suggest making an attempt to put the brain in gear before engaging the mouth (or keyboard).

    - Robert
    aVERT - a Vertical Emergency Response Training
    To Avert Disaster in the Vertical Environment

  7. #67
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    ...........The End

  8. #68
    Forum Member Bones42's Avatar
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    Which knot do you use?
    Velcro?


    Seriously, some good reading here. Thanks for the discussion.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  9. #69
    Forum Member Riversong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42
    Velcro?
    It might come to that if firefighters who want to do rope rescue can't learn a knot as simple as the bowline, or instructors think they can't teach it.

    - Robert
    aVERT - a Vertical Emergency Response Training
    To Avert Disaster in the Vertical Environment

  10. #70
    Forum Member Bones42's Avatar
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    The last FF1 class I ran, we had a rope rescue guy come and teach the ropes/knots section. He did not teach students the bowline. When I asked why, he said it's because it's not a recommended knot anymore. I asked by who and he didn't know, he heard it somewhere. Students were taught the knot in the next class.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  11. #71
    Forum Member Riversong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42
    he said it's because it's not a recommended knot anymore.
    Ironically, the bowline-with-a-bight used to be in the Essentials of Firefighting training manual, as a way to improvise a life-safety harness with the end of the rope. Some committee decided to remove it, probably because commercial (NFPA) harnesses became widely available.
    aVERT - a Vertical Emergency Response Training
    To Avert Disaster in the Vertical Environment

  12. #72
    MembersZone Subscriber tecrsq's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riversong
    Ironically, the bowline-with-a-bight used to be in the Essentials of Firefighting training manual, as a way to improvise a life-safety harness with the end of the rope. Some committee decided to remove it, probably because commercial (NFPA) harnesses became widely available.

    I still demonstrate and teach that version of the improvised life safety harness as well as several others and consider it a staple of my class content.

    Seems to still be a very quick, safe and viable option when one has shown the ability to rig it.

    Nice option in a big bag-o-tricks!
    TecRsq
    North Georgia

    - Let No Mans Ghost Come Back To Say My Fire Training Let Me Down -

  13. #73
    MembersZone Subscriber tecrsq's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86
    I use the double granny for lowering objects in a stokes. If there is a person I use the triple granny.

    Never failed me.
    Blasphemy ......

    LMAO cause you aint right.
    TecRsq
    North Georgia

    - Let No Mans Ghost Come Back To Say My Fire Training Let Me Down -

  14. #74
    Forum Member WBenner's Avatar
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    Lightbulb Come on Guys

    First off if all of you are Techs according to NFPA. And the courses you took were all from a certified Instructor then arguing over what knot works best is silly. Many forms of rechniques are out there in the Rope rescue world. The method you had been taught may not be the same as another city. In order to be successful in rope I recommend learning other rope rescue methods.
    For instance we do not use a 2 rope system for a rescuer on a rappel many use the belay line we do not..How ever we send 2 rescuer's over a edge tethered off to each other. THAT COVERS YOU SAFETY LINE..The NFPA standard for Technical rescue has guidlines for you to follow it doesnt tell us what we can or can not use..As for a bowline it works in the rescue worls and so does a Fig 8. What ever you choose make sure its done right.

  15. #75
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    JAFA62,
    I have video footage of drop tests performed on that system you use. My department used to use the same system until they saw the video footage. In a couple instances, there was a yard sale of rescue randy parts on the ground!

    Being in Ontario, you need to be careful that you are not in violation of your provincial fall protection laws. Most provinces do not have exemptions for rescue personnel and therefore you must comply with the OH&S laws. There have been a few teams stung by this when using single rope techniques in Canada.

    As far as the NFPA tech thing goes.....some of the most knowledgable people in the rope rescue community are not certified technicians. Having the fancy certificate does not make one a competent rigger.
    Sometimes, in order to make an operation idiot proof, you must remove the idiot!

  16. #76
    Forum Member Riversong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by resqtek
    Sometimes, in order to make an operation idiot proof, you must remove the idiot!
    Apropos of nothing: No truer words were ever spoken.
    aVERT - a Vertical Emergency Response Training
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  17. #77
    Forum Member WBenner's Avatar
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    Question

    Resqtek I agree about the tech issue. Just because your a tech does not make you be all end all. As for the method we use what do you mean by drop test. Are you saying the rope or anchor had let go? And if that is the case then the rescuer will not fall to the ground as the secondary rescuer will prevent his/her fall via the teather. And I am aware of the OH&S as Im a certifeid safety rep. And by sending 2 rescuers instead of one we comply. if however the rescuers are being lowered then they self belay. But Id love to talk more on this subject. As maybe you know something i do not.

  18. #78
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    What happens is one rope breaks and the rescuer and potentially the patient impact the second line via the tether.( I say potentially the patiet because the likeliehood of failure is greater on the side with the two person load but that does not rule out something on the other side). The impact generated in the fall can easily exceed what you can catch with the brake rack on the other side. I have seen photos of departments using this system with up to a 15ft tether. This is really pushing your luck. Typically the tether is made out of 11mm dynamic rope. The thought is this will aid in energy absorption. The problem is, you are impacting a rope, tested with a one person(85kg) load, with two people.

    A quick solution for the rescuer rappel situation is to take your rope at the midpoint and tie two figure 8's. Anchor each independantly and then rappel on one leg as you self belay on the other. This takes no more time or resources and provides some redundancy. In the fall protection world(in Canada), if a window washer was rappelling down the side of a building, he would have to have a secondary fall arrest system. Unless you have an exemption, you must follow the same rules. For years, most provincial authorities haven't bothered emergency responders because they felt there was a higher level of training. This is changing though and there is even talk of the money hungry CSA wanting to write a rescue standard. A topic in which they have little or no expertise.
    Sometimes, in order to make an operation idiot proof, you must remove the idiot!

  19. #79
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    Default ffmav426

    We use the alpine butterfly or linesmans loop because if we have a litter attendent we can attach about 2 metres below using a figure of 8 on the bight. This distance allows for mobility on rope for the attendent to reassure the pt or provide further care and to guide the litter where required.

    It is also a multidirectional knot. We use AZTEC mechanical advantage pulleys to move the stokes to verticle if required and we prussik using ascenders, prussik loops or AZTECs for on rope mobility depending on the situation and personal preference.

  20. #80
    Forum Member Riversong's Avatar
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    this message got posted in the wrong place - see next page
    aVERT - a Vertical Emergency Response Training
    To Avert Disaster in the Vertical Environment

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