1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by resqtek
    Sometimes, in order to make an operation idiot proof, you must remove the idiot!
    Apropos of nothing: No truer words were ever spoken.
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    Resqtek I agree about the tech issue. Just because your a tech does not make you be all end all. As for the method we use what do you mean by drop test. Are you saying the rope or anchor had let go? And if that is the case then the rescuer will not fall to the ground as the secondary rescuer will prevent his/her fall via the teather. And I am aware of the OH&S as Im a certifeid safety rep. And by sending 2 rescuers instead of one we comply. if however the rescuers are being lowered then they self belay. But Id love to talk more on this subject. As maybe you know something i do not.

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    What happens is one rope breaks and the rescuer and potentially the patient impact the second line via the tether.( I say potentially the patiet because the likeliehood of failure is greater on the side with the two person load but that does not rule out something on the other side). The impact generated in the fall can easily exceed what you can catch with the brake rack on the other side. I have seen photos of departments using this system with up to a 15ft tether. This is really pushing your luck. Typically the tether is made out of 11mm dynamic rope. The thought is this will aid in energy absorption. The problem is, you are impacting a rope, tested with a one person(85kg) load, with two people.

    A quick solution for the rescuer rappel situation is to take your rope at the midpoint and tie two figure 8's. Anchor each independantly and then rappel on one leg as you self belay on the other. This takes no more time or resources and provides some redundancy. In the fall protection world(in Canada), if a window washer was rappelling down the side of a building, he would have to have a secondary fall arrest system. Unless you have an exemption, you must follow the same rules. For years, most provincial authorities haven't bothered emergency responders because they felt there was a higher level of training. This is changing though and there is even talk of the money hungry CSA wanting to write a rescue standard. A topic in which they have little or no expertise.
    Sometimes, in order to make an operation idiot proof, you must remove the idiot!

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    We use the alpine butterfly or linesmans loop because if we have a litter attendent we can attach about 2 metres below using a figure of 8 on the bight. This distance allows for mobility on rope for the attendent to reassure the pt or provide further care and to guide the litter where required.

    It is also a multidirectional knot. We use AZTEC mechanical advantage pulleys to move the stokes to verticle if required and we prussik using ascenders, prussik loops or AZTECs for on rope mobility depending on the situation and personal preference.

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    this message got posted in the wrong place - see next page
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    The Bowline and Figure eight along with a clove hitch and prussik are pretty much the backbone of every platform. To say only a certain knot will be used in a specific application may be correct but to say you should not use a bowline over a figure eight is arrogant.
    "If Prometheus was worthy of the wrath of heaven for kindling the first fire upon earth, how ought all the Gods to honour the men who make it their professional business to put it out?"
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    In all of the rescue and climbing classes I have been a part of, the bowline was taught, but was slated as purely an equipment knot. The Figure 8 is a life safety knot.

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    WOW! We've resulted to speaking latin!

    Before anyone asks it means "Let the buyer beware"

    I have seen (and used) the bowline, butterfly and the fig. 8. I prefer the bowline for the same reasons someone else prefers the fig. 8 or butterlfy.

    What is the thought process for the interlocking bowlines? What is the difference between interlocking them or rigging them seperate to one biner?

    There are thousands of ways to accomplish a task in rope rescue. I apply to the is it safe and is it efficient philosophy. It's up to the user to determine if their system meets this requirement. So whether you use the draggin bowline, the flyin bowline, or the whopper knot (This is an attempt at some rope humor) ask yourself is it safe and is it efficient.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Foyt2013
    In all of the rescue and climbing classes I have been a part of, the bowline was taught, but was slated as purely an equipment knot. The Figure 8 is a life safety knot.
    You (and many others) have been taught by so-called instructors who are merely repeating unsubstantiated dogma and misinformation.

    The bowline is one of the most widely used life safety knots in climbing, caving and cave rescue, canyoneering, arborist, water rescue, mountain rescue and (in some cases) fire rescue applications.

    It is one of the most versatile and important knots in anyone's "toolkit". Anyone who says otherwise is only professing their own ignorance.

    Caveat Emptor.

    - Robert
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    [QUOTE=jmatthe2]

    What is the thought process for the interlocking bowlines? What is the difference between interlocking them or rigging them seperate to one biner?
    QUOTE]

    Interlocking the bowlines creates a link from both tails to the mainline. If the carabiner fails, the patient, who is attached to the long tail from the belay, is directly linked to the mainline because the knots are joined. This maintains your position relative to the patient by avoiding loading the belay line above the knot. If the knots weren't connected and the carabiner failed, you would still be left hanging from your primary attachment which is linked to the mainline knot. The patient however will be caught by the unloaded belay. If you have 60(200ft) meters of rope in service at that point, the patient will end up hanging about 3m(10ft) below you due to the elongation in the belay and retraction in the main.

    Another benefit to the bowline is that you can tie it directly to the stretcher bridle and eliminate the carabiner completely. Removing hardware height in your rigging can make life easier in industrial environments where things can get a little tight.
    Sometimes, in order to make an operation idiot proof, you must remove the idiot!

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    Quote Originally Posted by resqtek
    Another benefit to the bowline is that you can tie it directly to the stretcher bridle and eliminate the carabiner completely. Removing hardware height in your rigging can make life easier in industrial environments where things can get a little tight.
    Not only industrial environments but at a cliff edge, even with a high artificial directional, it is always advantageous to minimize the "gain" of a rigging system on a litter so that it can be raised as high as possible before making the transition over the edge.

    In a cave rescue environment, a vertical shaft might top out where there is very little headroom and minimizing the gain of the rigging can be the difference between making the edge transition or not.

    If lifting a litter into a hovering helicopter, the rigging must be kept within very strict limits so that the hoist boom can swing the litter into the bird.

    - Robert
    Last edited by Riversong; 11-19-2006 at 06:46 PM.
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    Question New question for an experienced group...

    It never ceases to amaze me how the subject of rope rescue and knots in particular gets the conversation going! Interesting stuff throughout the forum, but I think the eight vs. bowline debate is covered off. I’ll like to ask a different question from an obviously learned group. What are some of the best all around technical rescue conferences available in North America? I hope to attend one or two this upcoming year. I, and my department, are aware of Rigging for Rescue and Ropes That Rescue and can highly recommend either. I was thinking of more of an opportunity to share research, equipment, ideas, etc. at an instructor or higher level. Thanks, and keep up the entertaining writing!
    Btw. If you think this should be a new thread, please start it. For some reason I don’t seem to able to.
    Cheers

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    Quote Originally Posted by TRTCanada
    What are some of the best all around technical rescue conferences available in North America?

    Btw. If you think this should be a new thread, please start it. For some reason I don’t seem to able to.
    Yes, this IS a completely different thread, and it's easy to start one. Just go back to the Specialized Rescue thread list and click on the New Thread button on the top of the list. It's your baby, and no one's gonna do it for you.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TRTCanada
    ....What are some of the best all around technical rescue conferences available in North America? I hope to attend one or two this upcoming year. I, and my department, are aware of Rigging for Rescue and Ropes That Rescue and can highly recommend either. I was thinking of more of an opportunity to share research, equipment, ideas, etc. at an instructor or higher level. Thanks, and keep up the entertaining writing!
    Btw. If you think this should be a new thread, please start it. For some reason I don’t seem to able to.
    Cheers
    Just in case you continue to have problems starting a new thread.....

    I would recommend the International Technical Rescue Symposium (ITRS) that is held in the early Nov. timeframe of each year. Location is usually in Colorado near Denver.

    Topics vary and are geared towards research, testing, systems analysis, standards/guideline assessment, etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MtnRsq
    I would recommend the International Technical Rescue Symposium (ITRS)
    Thanks MtnRsq. I will be looking into that one. Looks like I just missed this years! (will try a new thread again, the forums tech hasn't been able to help, must be an issue on my end)

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    Exclamation Eh TRT

    Hey TRT CANADA where you from Im Canadian to. I havent seen much stuff happeing here In canada. BC has some good course but Im from Ontario and I see Nothing.

    JAFA62

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    I like the double figure eight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rescuedawg View Post
    I like the double figure eight.
    Do you mean the two-loop figure-8? And WHY?

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    Thumbs down So called Instructors?

    Riversong,
    Time and Time again I find you calling other Instructors on there expertise(SO CALLED). What makes you so right?

    What I find amazing is that the only time Ive ever heard of you is on here. Who are you? I have an idea as to who you are. Where can I buy your book on Technical Rope Rescue because you come off as if your it and everyone is wrong.
    Im new to Technical Rope and you may have good things to say, but your arogance has me turning the other way.
    Make your point but dont slam other Instructors you do not have that right.

    You make it sound as if everything I or others have been taught was not correct. So all the money we spend was a waste?

    Jafa62

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    Quote Originally Posted by JAFA62 View Post
    Riversong,
    Time and Time again I find you calling other Instructors on there expertise(SO CALLED). What makes you so right?
    Where in heck did this latest outburst come from? Because I asked for clarification about what knot rescuedawg was refering to and went to the trouble of posting a picture to help eliminate confusion?

    Or because I asked for an explanation of his preference (which is what the original post on this thread asked of us: "which knot and why"?)

    What I find amazing is that the only time Ive ever heard of you is on here. Who are you? Where can I buy your book on Technical Rope Rescue
    Perhaps this is the only forum you troll. I've been discussing, arguing, and sharing information and expertise for years on a dozen on-line technical forums, in the US, Canada, and Australia - in the fields of technical rope rescue, fast-water rescue, ice rescue, mountain rescue, cave rescue, arbor rescue, wilderness search & rescue, EMS, vehicle extrication, and emergency management.

    I've also been teaching technical rescue disciplines to fire departments, rescue squads, SAR teams, and industrial rescue teams for a dozen years. It's a sideline of mine, but I don't teach any field in which I am not an expert.

    Sorry, I haven't written a book, since there are several good books out there and there's no sense reinventing the wheel. I have published a few articles, including one in Advanced Rescue Technology in 2004 that challenged some of the prevailing rope rescue dogma. What was interesting was that a number of practioners who didn't even understand what I was saying took offense, while several of the world's top rope rescue experts largely agreed with my article's premise.

    If you weren't so intent on taking offense from imaginary insults, you might discover you have a lot to learn. And, what I offer here is no charge.

    You make it sound as if everything I or others have been taught was not correct.
    Unfortunatley, much of what is taught in rope rescue - particularly in the fire service - is of questionable value and simply gets repeated from one so-called instructor to another. I've found there is more dogma than authentic expertise in this field, and few practitioners really understand the principles behind what they do.

    I'm merely doing my small part to remedy that. Take it or leave it, but stop complaining about it.

    - Robert
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    Robert

    I am just curious. You say that you have been discussing this information online for years now, as well as teaching it. Do you do this for a living? Do you run rope through your hands on a regular basis?

    I ask for a couple of reasons.
    1. You do come off sounding very arrogant. And honestly I try to ignore alot of what you write because of it. If you came off less strong/arrogant, people might take what you have to share with them, easier.
    2. You state that alot of what fire is taught, is questionable. What is that based on? I am not a firefighter, but I do work in a couple of volunteer search and rescue units. I also teach ropes rescue. I teach according to what I was taught, the firefighter way. I am actually certified by the CSTI in Rescue Systems.
    3. Where do you get your information from? I would like to look at the sources of your information because I could learn something.
    4. Some of your insults are not imaginary. When you make the statement 'so-called-instructors', that is an insult to those of that teach.

    Curious.
    Anthony

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    There is a difference between arrogant (which means assuming you know more than you do) and knowledgeable.

    This forum is NOT about personalities. Let's keep to the subject.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riversong View Post
    There is a difference between arrogant (which means assuming you know more than you do) and knowledgeable.

    This forum is NOT about personalities. Let's keep to the subject.
    And Robert, this statement, sounds arrogant. You are right, this forum is not about personalities, but arrogance makes people ignore you, even if you might be knowledgeable.

    If you would rather answer the questions that I posted privately, please email me at GDSQDCR@comcast.net .

    Thanks!
    Anthony

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    Don’t take what Robert says as being arrogant. When I initially got into the technical rope rescue world I took what was taught as gospel, not questioning what the instructors were passing because I was nothing more than a student. I practiced what I was taught and passed on the information I learned to others. There was a level that was taught in Maryland that never expanded and I became bored. I began to travel across North America attending classes is British Columbia, Arizona, California, and Colorado. I began to see that some of what was being taught on the basic level was ok but a lot of the information that was being taught was incorrect and even dangerous. There was the only the “how” we do things and not the “why”. Once I started to get more outside experience and learning the “why”, I have become very surprised what so called “experts” and “instructors” are doing. I have to agree with Robert that there is a large issue with what the fire service is teaching across the country for technical rope rescue and their practices. Some people have called themselves certified instructors and that makes them knowledgeable. In Maryland to become a certified state instructor you have to attend a “skills weekend” to demonstrate your proficiency in the field you will be teaching. I attended one of these weekends, and to say the least I was shocked and even a bit scared to see what people are teaching or calling acceptable skills. When some instructors and even evaluators were questioned on certain techniques, there was no detailed explanation for why they were doing what they were doing except for maybe the standard that is what is being taught. People have to realize certifications do not mean anything more than you sat through a class and bullsh*ted your way through a test. There is a huge difference between being certified and being proficient.

    So I am challenging everyone to ask not only the how but also the why. Listen to what other people are trying to pass on express. Don’t take what everyone says as gospel and seek your own answers and research your field intensely if you are an instructor. Writing a book does not make you an expert. You would be amazed on what people write as so called experts when you go back and critically read their books.

    Be safe and good luck!!

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    Thanks for your response. I have only been doing technical rescue for about 2 years, and 'teaching' for a little over a year. I teach according to a book, but am always looking for new ways and whys of we do. I look forward to learning new things, learning the why's of what we do.

    That is one of the reasons that I am asking Robert for his sources. I would like to critically read them, absorb them and if my team can, use them. I personall do not like/appreciate the way Robert comes off, because to me (and others who have read his threads), he comes off as arrogant. I personally tend to take what he has to say with a grain of salt because of his attitude.

    If you can provide me any sources to read, I would love to have them.

    Thanks!
    Anthony

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