1. #1
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    Unhappy Can we talk about a serious issue plaguing the fire service??

    Looking through the forums you can find several topics being discussed, ground ladders,pagers,SCBA's,where you can buy an AED, and other such topics but there is a lack of certain topics being discussed by a wide variety of forum users. They just as soon attack on people then discuss this "plague". The plague is one simple word Attitude. Firefighters all over the country have the "I've seen it all, done it all" attitude and refuse to update their skills or their knowledge. I'm not even saying my department is any different. We have two cheifs who would rather go inside with NO scba and yell then stand outside and use the Incident Command System. Too often I hear the comment "You can have all the training in the world, but it won't prepare you for the real thing". I find this to very wrong! Training is what prepares you for the real thing, Classes like FF survival and Get Out Alive! are teaching us how to get ourseleves out of trouble. Advances in knowledge on RIT/FAST teams are helping to save FF's across the country (off hand I can think of PG County) and yet why is it that a FF who was killed in the line of duty was found to not have turned his PASS alarm? Why is it that in a poll of FF's taken they found that 95% would activate there PASS only on their last dying breath?? Things need to change in the fire service. But these changes cannot begin to happen until WE take the first steps, until WE begin to change our attitudes. Remember there are no such things as "routine fires", so fight smart, turn the PASS alarms on and BE SAFE!!!
    NYS FF1/AEMT-CC
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    Default Well...

    Can understand what youre talking about. A lot of
    it come down the "way we always done things" and
    "If it aint broke, dont fix it" way of thinking.

    I guess change will come more with new laws,
    technology and just plain changing of the guards
    at the Chief/Supervisor level.

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    Mike

    Good question, I can remember when Fire Tactics had a study stream of discussions. Now it can go days without a new post.

    A lot of it has to do with a change in attitudes, not for the better I'm afraid. If I believe in pushing in, there will be those who will call me reckless and dangerous without any information to back it up. On the other hand if I advocate going defensive early, you have the group that will call me a gutless fairy.

    As long as the shouters are around you are not going to get the kind of discussions you want. Maybe the forums should become a pay to use, that might keep things civil.

    Hope you get the kind of discussions you are looking for.

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    Default

    Although I understand your concern, I think you are painting an awfully broad picture of the American fire service. The people that post regularly in here are but just a tiny fraction of the 1 million plus firefighters in our country. Take for instance the PASS device. When I go on air my PASS is on.I have no choice. Many departments have integrated PASS devices. I really dont think there is a "plague" lurking out and about in the U.S. fire service. The problems that YOUR department are probably not unique. However, with the broad amount of diversity throughout our country, there are specific regional attitudes and problems to be found. I seem to remember that you are a fairly young man. If you do your best and encourage others to live up to their potential, you will be doing YOUR part to make for a better American fire service.
    IAFF-IACOJ PROUD

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    Default Re: Can we talk about a serious issue plaguing the fire service??

    Originally posted by RescuHoppy7
    "You can have all the training in the world, but it won't prepare you for the real thing". I find this to very wrong! Training is what prepares you for the real thing, Classes like FF survival and Get Out Alive! are teaching us how to get ourseleves out of trouble.

    Hoppy7 you make some very valid points my bro. Like Mikeylikesit stated about the PASS device a lot of departments have the integrated PASS but I'm sure the Depts. without the integrated PASS have the problem you are speaking about.

    However I only partially agree with your statement about training and the real thing. It is true that training is very very important and I have taken classes such as FF survival. I have taken away some very useful information from them and I stress the point that you should take as many classes as possible. And I think training will prepare you for the real thing to a degree. But no amount of training will prepare you for every possible scenario or the actual stress of the situation. For example I have never felt an real fear during a training exercise, no matter how intense. However I'll be the first to admit there have been multiple times on the fireground where I found myself saying oh sh*%%. There is NOTHING like the real thing. I think I have learned more on the actual fireground than I have learned in any classroom or training scenario.

    The only exception to this is that you don't want to learn something the hard way on the fireground that will put you in a pine box.

    Hope this is the kind of discussion we all want.. The past week or so has been a bit rough around here!

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    In regard to what we talk about on the Forums --

    Well - bring up a topic, and we'll talk about it. It's that simple. If I scroll down the list - and I see something that catches my attention; I'll most definetely read it, and possibly comment on it.

    To say that we are avoiding a 'pressing discussion' - just isn't true.

    IN REGARD TO TRAINING -

    I believe that training should fall into 2 different categories. Basic and Advanced or even -- Introductory, and Continuing Education.

    firefiftyfive is right with the following statement:
    For example I have never felt an real fear during a training exercise, no matter how intense. However I'll be the first to admit there have been multiple times on the fireground where I found myself saying oh sh*%%.
    Training - is by nature - not supposed to be dangerous. The object of training is not to kill the FF's participating.
    It is a sterile environment - with fixed, albeit adjustable parameters - for training.

    The buildings used for training are designed to be non-combustible, to withstand the rigors of live-burn, and are lined with substances that are designed for fire - like Pagdenite (SP?) [WHP burn buildings]. When is the last time you saw a restraunt, multiple family dwelling, or commercial occupancy designed not to burn in a fire.

    You haven't - why? Because they building is meant for that use.

    Is it wrong that buildings are made more survivable?? Thats another topic for debate...

    Training is great. I am an advocate for more training, repeat training - over and over until it is muscle memory.

    But you need to ensure that you are recieving quality training, and not reinforcing wrong or bad habits.

    Here's an example for you --

    The military (and I am not sure which branch) used to teach it's soldiers that when a weapon jammed, to keep the barrel pointed down range - and to raise your right hand. A Drill Instructor/Drill Sergeant - whomever - would come and assist you in clearing the jam. This training was ingrained in the recruits. This was the only allowed action when the weapon jammed - lest you suffer dire consequences.

    Fast forward to combat - they had soldiers - dying in firefights, with their hand raised - and a jammed weapon. Because rather than teach them the things that would keep them alive in combat - they taught what would keep them safe in TRAINING.


    There are many issues plaguing the fire service - Training is but one.

    Here's one for you. You can get trained in NJ - and go to PA, NY, and DE - and they will probably not accept the training that you recieved in NJ. Why?? is the training sub standard in NJ? No.
    Because the system is completely screwed up.

    What good is a national training standard, NFPA 1001 Prefessional Qualifications for Firefirefighter -----

    Everyone 'supposedly' uses it - adheres to it - yet there is virtually no reciprocity from state to state...

    Stupid. Training needs to be standardized. IC/IMS needs to be standardized. Across the board.
    Marc

    "In Omnia Paratus"

    Member - IACOJ
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    -- The opinions presented here are my own; and are not those of any organization that I belong to, or work for.

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    We are moving forward, albeit slowly. Just this week the DHS adopted one ICS/IMS system for the nation to use. It is up to us to put the drills together to educate our guys in how it works.
    While I'm not a big fan of everything NFPA does, I make it my job to be as knowledgeable as possible about the standards that could apply to the fireservice.
    If your certifications are not recognized in another state then voice your complaints to your State Fire Marshal. They have the power to set the standards that will be good in other areas. We just had a guy move to FL and he didn't have any problems transfering stuff.
    Like I posted on other threads we need to make our fireservice more credible. We need to find the money to run scientific testing on procedures and techniques. Then it is up to us to make sure we educate everyone on the results.
    It is in our hands, mix tradition with science and lets go forward. Some self reflection is needed, start wearing your seatbelt and not drinking then working. Learn from others who have been there, training is needed then fine tuned in the real world.

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    ADSNWFLD -

    Every state does it differently. For example - In many state's, the state fire marshal only enforces building code - and has nothing to do with training.

    As for making the fire service more credible?

    Define credible --

    cred·i·ble adj. -

    1. Capable of being believed; plausible.
    2. Worthy of confidence; reliable.


    Ever hear about the 10% that ruin it for the 90%.
    Or the rotten apple that spoils the batch ??

    Maybe if we could keep fire fighter from drinking on duty, doing drugs and going to work, staying on light duty for a year.....
    Maybe if we could avoid all of these other black eye's then we would be --- Capable of being believed. Worthy of confidence.


    I believe in training where the public can see you -- put up a big sign - "FD Training in Progress" It shows you in a good light.

    The public thinks to themselves "Hey - here these guys are, out training to make sure they can do their job- better, quicker, safer - for when I need them."

    Offer to do home safety inspections - let the public (your customers) know that you are interested in their safety.

    ADSNWFLD -- I do believe parts of your posting. We need firefighters to be educated as to the how and the why - of firefighting.... Not let them believe it is a living, breathing, thing....

    Check out the USFA, NIST, and the Building Fire Research Labratory - alot of what you speak about is currently being conducted.
    Marc

    "In Omnia Paratus"

    Member - IACOJ
    "Got Crust?"

    -- The opinions presented here are my own; and are not those of any organization that I belong to, or work for.

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    Maybe that we are now so responsible for everything anymore such as terrorism, WMD, EMS, Haz-Mat, technical rescue, confined space, the list goes on and on, and with all the new wave of training in RIT, save our own, its taking us away from all the basics of firefighting.
    Maybe if we put more focus on basic firefighting skills, we may not need to put so much time and effort on RIT stuff. Lets train our people not to put themselves in a situation where we need RIT, it all goes back to the basics.

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    Maybe if we put more focus on basic firefighting skills, we may not need to put so much time and effort on RIT stuff. Lets train our people not to put themselves in a situation where we need RIT, it all goes back to the basics.
    WTFDChief, I could not agree more with what you said. While I agree that there is a need for RIT and self-rescue training, I feel we should place more emphasis on not getting ourselves into these situations in the first place. I've read too many LODD reports lately and thought to myself, "why were they in there at all?" We need our people to be better at recognizing conditions as they relate to occupancy type, time of day, etc. We need our OIC's to be able to do a rapid hazard vs. risk assessment and choose some of our battles more wisely.

    Hoppy, I think your intentions for this thread are valid and good. Maybe the wording didn't come out exactly right. A good discussion has started, nonetheless.

    Good day.
    Lt. D. Gordon
    Greendale Fire Department
    Greendale, IN

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    Originally posted by WTFDChief730
    Maybe that we are now so responsible for everything anymore such as terrorism, WMD, EMS, Haz-Mat, technical rescue, confined space, the list goes on and on, and with all the new wave of training in RIT, save our own, its taking us away from all the basics of firefighting.
    Maybe if we put more focus on basic firefighting skills, we may not need to put so much time and effort on RIT stuff. Lets train our people not to put themselves in a situation where we need RIT, it all goes back to the basics.
    Excellent post, Ron.

  12. #12
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    Smile And here we are, again..............

    This is kinda deja vu all over again. Mike has a valid point. Or two. Or three. All of which have been debated here time and time again. I am NOT complaining about something being brought up again. Safety NEEDS to be in the forefront, always. Mike, Thank you for reminding us. But Marc had the comment that stands out. Standards. I would add MANDATORY Reciprocity as well. What good is FF II Taught to NBFSPB standards in one state if another state refuses to accept it? We all need to train to a National standard, and be recognized as meeting that standard in all 50 states, without question. Stay Safe....
    Never use Force! Get a Bigger Hammer.
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    Default Re: And here we are, again..............

    Originally posted by hwoods
    Standards. I would add MANDATORY Reciprocity as well. What good is FF II Taught to NBFSPB standards in one state if another state refuses to accept it? We all need to train to a National standard, and be recognized as meeting that standard in all 50 states, without question. Stay Safe....
    That is very true. I have a feeling some FDs would be spending less money too, because of that. I know quite a few people who have either come here from another state or moved from here to another state and had to retake classes to get certs. or re-take tests to get certs. Waste of money if you ask me

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    I can definitely see Hoppy's point in regards to attitudes about training. You even see it on here, someone trying to make fun of someone else for getting "all the crust on their gear at a training burn."

    The reality for many of us is that we get very few fires a year and only one or two of those are actual workers. We just don't get the experience that some large urban departments get. That's why I feel that live fire training in acquired structures is absolutely essential. It's relatively safe but it still gives the student that experience with smoke, heat and fire and makes them more confident when facing it for real.

    On the other side of the coin, I had the opportunity to attend several live burns last year. At least half of the students in these classes spent more time complaining that the fires "weren't hot enough" than discussing what tactics they were using or what new ones they'd like to try. I know this frustrated the instructors.

    I've seen it stated in several articles: When things go bad on the fireground you are going to fall back on your training and experience to make it through. If you only have one or two fires a year and never go to any training, what are you going to fall back on?
    FTM-PTB-DTRT

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    YOUR BEHIND !!!!!!!............or worse
    IACOJ both divisions and PROUD OF IT !
    Pardon me sir.. .....but I believe we are all over here !
    ATTENTION ALL SHOPPERS: Will the dead horse please report to the forums.(thanks Motown)
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    I'm sorry, I haven't been paying much attention for the last 3 hours.....what were we discussing?
    "but I guarentee you I will FF your arse off" from>
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    Standards. I would add MANDATORY Reciprocity as well. What good is FF II Taught to NBFSPB standards in one state if another state refuses to accept it? We all need to train to a National standard, and be recognized as meeting that standard in all 50 states, without question.
    Harve, I agree 100%,If classes meet national standards then they should be used nationally, same set up as in EMS.
    NYS FF1/AEMT-CC
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    "You stopped being in charge when I showed up"

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    I agree with a point that was raised by WTFDChief730 -

    Maybe that we are now so responsible for everything anymore such as terrorism, WMD, EMS, Haz-Mat, technical rescue, confined space, the list goes on and on, and with all the new wave of training in RIT, save our own, its taking us away from all the basics of firefighting.
    We have gone from the "FIRE DEPT" to the "EVERYTHING DEPT"

    However --
    EMS, and Haz Mat -- I see as a logical branching out of the fire service. We are staged throughout the community to respond to fires -- why not also resond to medical emergencies??

    EMS is fairly day to day - and keeps many Departments busy - most if not all departments have EMT's; and some have Paramedic's -- Many Paid FD's require Paramedic certification even before hiring.

    Haz Mat -- Well. It doesn't happen as often as the EMS calls do - but it requires many abilites/skills that are already found in firefighters- as well as some of the equipment we already possess - SCBA for instance.

    WMD -

    Few and far between. When it does happen - the effects will be catastrophic - No matter how well prepared anyone thinks they are - hence the "MASS DESTRUCTION" of WMD.

    As seen on 9/11 - the fire service will be there - but I don't know how suited we are for -- or how we should be involved.
    This is something that should be more on the Government - at the federal level -- Military, etc...


    We need to realize -- even though firefighting may not be done day to day - and fully 75% of the calls we run may be EMS; firefighting is the most likely job hazard to kill you.
    Of all the jobs we do -- it is the most dangerous.
    Marc

    "In Omnia Paratus"

    Member - IACOJ
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    -- The opinions presented here are my own; and are not those of any organization that I belong to, or work for.

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    Default RIGHT ON

    I agree with you. Training is the key to being a professional. The military trains like they are going into battle tommorow, everyday. Why doesn't the fire service. We are the first line of defense, are we not???? The Military keeps their people in top shape, and if you can't get into top shape, then you are a liability to your whole team, and they do not want you. Yet the fire service has expected less and less. Performing a rescue operation in a house fire is right up there with the most difficult jobs in the world. Right up there with doing a recon mission on a Navy Seal Team. Yet the fire service sends in guys without proper training and extremely unfit, mostly volunteers, bless their heart, and we wonder why we kill 100 firefighters a year.... Do you think that the marines that come back from Iraq will say "Now I know it all, I have been to War" No way. Ya, they got some first hand experiance, do they still need to train? Is technology still changing? Is Science still changing? You bet it all is. Tommorow will be differnt then yesterday. If you think you know it all then get out of the fire service. You are done. Times are changing, equipment is changing, and fire is changing everyday. If our people were military fit, and trained we wouldn't be losing as many firefighters each and every year.

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