Sleeping regulations (anti-sleeping regulations)

[BD6413]

That's the beauty of straight dayworks....0600-1800. I sleep at home -

Of course that little cat-nap after 1600 until shift change never hurts

[HeavyRescueTech]

A friend of mine works as a paid firefighter and his city's fathers have suddenly taken interest (spurned on by the local spiteful volunteers) in firefighter sleeping habits while on night shift.

you know, funny thing about this. you work a 10 or 14 hours shift. is it that unreasonable (from the point of view of the city's fathers, or the taxpayers who are paying your salaries) that you be doing something to benefit their city during the time that you are on the clock? I know you might be tired, but that is what the other 10 or 14 hours of the day (or night, depending on the shift). If you are too tired to do the job properly without sleeping, maybe you should call out sick that day?

most jobs (non-emeregency related) would not permit you to sleep and get paid for it. why should firefighting be any different?

24 hour shifts are a different ball game altogether.

[DeputyChiefGonzo]

you know, funny thing about this. you work a 10 or 14 hours shift. is it that unreasonable (from the point of view of the city's fathers, or the taxpayers who are paying your salaries) that you be doing something to benefit their city during the time that you are on the clock? I know you might be tired, but that is what the other 10 or 14 hours of the day (or night, depending on the shift). If you are too tired to do the job properly without sleeping, maybe you should call out sick that day?

most jobs (non-emeregency related) would not permit you to sleep and get paid for it. why should firefighting be any different?

24 hour shifts are a different ball game altogether.

Your ignorance is astounding.

You ask "what is the benefit"?

How about an average of a 4 to 5 minute time from point of dispatch to arrival on scene with a first alarm response....even if we are in the rack!

How about the same arrival tiime for MVA's, medicals, etc.

The fact is... Firefighting is an emergency job, or are you too blind to see that?

Fact: Altering sleep patterns constantly is not healthy and if continued causes more problems, ie, higher medical costs, lost time, etc.

Fact: you do not sleep the same at the firehouse as you do at home in your own bed. The sound of tones, radios, scanners and phones are just background noise you try to adjust to. It's more like sleeping with one eye open or catnapping.

Fact: the taxpayers don't give a fat rat's rump if I am wide awake in the middle of night catching up on run reports or snoozing away. What they care about is the response they get for their 911 emergency, whether it is real or a perception in their minds.

For those mutts who would complain...

I would offer them a week living in the firehouse, so they could see the slow times, the busy times and the absolutely insanity of "running your arse off from one end of town to the other times". Let them sit down to a meal and have it interrupted once, twice or more. See how long they last...

PS: the private paramedics riding the bone out of the hospital have their own little snooze area in the hospital. So if they work a 10 and 14 shift, should they stay up all night, too?

[lance38]

Right on Captain Gonzo!!!

[BD6413]

Dr. Parisite,

You know Gonzo is right.....I'm not sure what you do for a living but it obviously can't be in the emergency services because as he said your ignorance not only astonishing is very obvious.

Until I recentley transferred I was assigned to straight Night Works from 1800hrs. to 0600hrs. - I worked alone as a paid driver in a volunteer station. After my assigned chores and dinner I was pretty much at my own free will. Now I did not use the sleeping quarters {No alerting system in the rooms and too far from the apparatus floor} but I'd doze in the TV room in a recliner until we got a run or shift change.

I don't think you quite understand the fact that by human nature {and age for some of us aging fellows} that when it's 2am and you're watching re-runs on QVC you're gonna drift off. Besides it's not like we're working at NASA or something like that where if we're asleep the nation's security would be affected. -- And with out a shadow of a doubt if you were a Career Firefighter and you had the oppurtunity to sleep you can't tell me you wouldn't.

On a final note Yes I have transferred to another station where I work from 6am to 6pm with a great rotating schedule allowing me off every other weekend so now I sleep at home but I do feel for my fellow brothers oout there who still work night tours.....they should catch a nap when possible.

[Dave1983]

Our SOP reads: beds may be occupied between 2000-0700 and the company officer may make exceptions if increased call load is expected at night.
So we pretty much sleep whenever as long as everything is done and the CO is ok with it.

Same here, except for the second part. No sleeping (in bed) period untill 2000hrs. Even on weekends/holidays. Thats the policy anyway, but you will find the Laz-y-boys occupied most days at 1700hrs when the "workday" ends during the week, and after 1200hrs weekends/holidays.

[BD6413]

Time to change policy for the weekends lol !! . On Saturday and Sunday we start at 0600 {Same as our weekday shifts} -- However Weekends and Holidays are "rest days" -- Double check the trash and clean the kitchen before 1700 that's it. The rest of the weekends and holidays are ours.

Weekdays are a bi**h though. -- No downtime until 1700. We're pretty busy with apparatus, House, and paperwork duties as well averaging 7-10 Runs {EMS/Fire} per day -- We're outta' here at 1800 so we stay busy during our weekdays.

[Dave1983]

Time to change policy for the weekends lol !! .

Oh, thats not all. The new Chief (the one who changed the sleeping policy) expected us to drill, do inspections, test hose and everything else on weekends/holidays, They were to be treated like a regular M-F. Needless to say, that didnt last very long.

[BD6413]

WOW !! Glad to see that was changed for you. I work for a Volunteer Fire Company {There are four of us Career Guys on duty during the day and two part timers at night} so basically we work under the watchful eye of the Board of Directors.

They're great people to work for...We have Rules but for the most part they're laid back and only really complain to our supervisors when something major occurs {Like Unauthorized Sleeping}

We luck out majorly....Hose Testing is done by the membership, Inspections by the State Fire Marshal, Apparatus Maintenance is performed by the volunteer officers. So we do have Station life pretty easy. We clean every 1st. day back working a 2 on 2 off 3 on 2 off 2 on 3 off keeps the place pretty clean by both crews. Feeling tired and even drifting off is easy to do especially after lunch but we try and keep busy. That's the beauty of having a Career Staff Office. A little cat nap is a good thing.

[NFR22785]

SOP states sleep time is not allowed until 2100...but that is rarely the case, especially after we take care of the daily work...in my department, everyday of the week means a different kind of chore is to be done:
Monday:Window day
Tuesday:video training
Wednesday:kitchen day
Thursday:building inspections/grounds day
Friday:house cleaning day/Fire training
Saturday:apparatus day
Sunday:medical inventory/driver's training/hydrant inspections
Plus, being that in our 16 day cycle we hit every day of the week once, it is a routine you get used to taking care of and everything gets kept up...
The other reason this is rarely the case is because we are a dual role department combining fire and ems...if you are a paramedic, every shift you work is twelve on the engine and twelve on the ambulance alternating day and night tricks...if you have never worked this kind of schedule, it can be severely taxing both mentally and physically...the worst, for me at least, is when I am on the engine during the day and catch and ***-ripper, working my *** of and getting tired and then having to ride the box at night and getting stomped with little to no sleep...it takes like a day to recover...so needless to say, if I am on the engine during the day and it is slow enough for me to get a nap...you better believe I'm gonna take one!!

[twon01]

in reply to capt. gonzo: WHAT? we have to work?

most people at my department (its only part-time, the cheif is FT but will not show up after 1600) think that we are getting paid to sleep. Heck, some people have a problem with truck checks....its like pulling teeth to them. Our shifts are 12 hrs long starting at 0600-1800 and 1800-0600. Official city policy is that we are not allowed to sleep anytime while on duty (the word is that 12 hours on duty is not long enough to require a sleep period...even at night) and therefore we are not allowed any beds in the station. Real world policy is that as soon as you get into the house you can sleep until a call comes in or if we have training/cleaing to do. Most people that work here work other jobs too, so they come in from a night shift from thier "regular" job and sleep for 11 hours (asuming that they do the station duties). The Officers dont really care about us sleeping, neither do the cheifs, but whenever the city manager shows up...we are hard at work

anthony

[DeputyChiefGonzo]

in reply to capt. gonzo: WHAT? we have to work?

most people at my department (its only part-time, the cheif is FT but will not show up after 1600) think that we are getting paid to sleep. Heck, some people have a problem with truck checks....its like pulling teeth to them. Our shifts are 12 hrs long starting at 0600-1800 and 1800-0600. Official city policy is that we are not allowed to sleep anytime while on duty (the word is that 12 hours on duty is not long enough to require a sleep period...even at night) and therefore we are not allowed any beds in the station. Real world policy is that as soon as you get into the house you can sleep until a call comes in or if we have training/cleaing to do. Most people that work here work other jobs too, so they come in from a night shift from thier "regular" job and sleep for 11 hours (asuming that they do the station duties). The Officers dont really care about us sleeping, neither do the cheifs, but whenever the city manager shows up...we are hard at work

anthony

What did you mean by this reply to me?

I thought I stated my case quite eloquently.

[twon01]

just stating that some people that i have the extreme pleasure of working with at my dept. feel that they are there to be paid to sleep and how dare someone call 911 and interupt their napping...

[DeputyChiefGonzo]

I am curious as to what "shift" you work on.

[Smoke20286]

Captain Gonzo is quite right, studies abound to show the facts of his assertions. There is also a great deal of evidence to support lower costs for the employer in the long run by the adoption of a 24 hour shift schedule. No one is "getting paid to sleep" we are being paid to provide prompt professional emergency response to the community, whatever the time of day or night

[KCrutchMCFR]

WHAT??? You guys get to sleep on the job?

In my station, it is a rare occurrance if the bells don't go off after 2100. it's also not strange to go on a run in the middle of the night and come back to an empty firehouse (4 pieces + the BC). But then again we do average 25- to 30 calls a day.

[neiowa]

Your ignorance is astounding.

You ask "what is the benefit"?

How about an average of a 4 to 5 minute time from point of dispatch to arrival on scene with a first alarm response....even if we are in the rack!

How about the same arrival tiime for MVA's, medicals, etc.

The fact is... Firefighting is an emergency job, or are you too blind to see that?

Fact: Altering sleep patterns constantly is not healthy and if continued causes more problems, ie, higher medical costs, lost time, etc.

Fact: you do not sleep the same at the firehouse as you do at home in your own bed. The sound of tones, radios, scanners and phones are just background noise you try to adjust to. It's more like sleeping with one eye open or catnapping.

Fact: the taxpayers don't give a fat rat's rump if I am wide awake in the middle of night catching up on run reports or snoozing away. What they care about is the response they get for their 911 emergency, whether it is real or a perception in their minds.

For those mutts who would complain...

I would offer them a week living in the firehouse, so they could see the slow times, the busy times and the absolutely insanity of "running your arse off from one end of town to the other times". Let them sit down to a meal and have it interrupted once, twice or more. See how long they last...

PS: the private paramedics riding the bone out of the hospital have their own little snooze area in the hospital. So if they work a 10 and 14 shift, should they stay up all night, too?

Boo dang hoo. I'll give you a useful direct parallel for my time on active duty, Army. In garrison, BN staff duty NCO and his driver were on duty for 26 hours then 22 off - from 1st Formation/PT day with his company 1 thru the duty day until start of evening duty as BN Duty NCO at 1700 and then thru relief by the Sgt Major after PT at 0830 on Day 2. They then were off duty until 0600 the next day and could then retire to a leisurely slumber in a barracks full of troops coming/going hooting/hollering and training (a big HS locker room). How bad is that fire house? The Duty NCO was expected to be professionally attired and ready to respond to any mission or responsibility at all times while on staff duty. He could not sleep, cat nap, or lounge. He did not have 30 seconds to awaken from his slumber and find the door when a superior officer walked in the door of BN hq to make an inspection or when the alert phone rang. Bn Sgt Major would ensure admin tasks were available to keep them gainfully occupied between the routine duty tasks. Routine vehicle maint (including washing command vehicles) was required as was instructing the driver on appropriate individual training tasks. Assignment was for a reason/need and while on the taxpayer clock it was demanded that time be productively used. Not screwing off sleeping. And paid a fraction of what a career firefighter is paid. And no sleeping so could be fresh as a daisy for that 2nd job.

The Staff Duty Officer, in command in the absence of the Bn cdr, was allowed to sleep if any time was available around completion of his duties. Average around 3-4hrs. Sometimes more sometimes none. His relief was at 0600 so he could take PT with his platoon and carry on with his duty day (NO DAY OFF). 36hrs does get long.

If the fire service are performing a critical life safety mission how is it one has time for blissful slumber while ON DUTY? NOTHING productive that needs done? Predictable ZERO likelyhood of a call in the next 60 seconds? Then why is a career station needed? If you're asleep you're voting that you are not an essential service.

[Lammrover]

Working hours are from 0600 to 1800. If you have a slow morning (1 call insted of 2) you will have plenty of time to do truck checks, squad checks, pump tests, station duties, workout, etc.

As long as you are done with your work by 1800 you can watch TV, sleep, play x-box, whatever. We can respond plenty fast when sleeping or awake.

When I'm working with AMR, its pretty much anything goes. You check out your car in the morning, put yourself in service then as long as you are not on a run you can sleep, watch TV, read, WHATEVER. Even when you are posted you can sleep if you wan't. Its really not a problem.

Lammrover

[DeputyChiefGonzo]

Boo dang hoo. I'll give you a useful direct parallel for my time on active duty, Army. In garrison, BN staff duty NCO and his driver were on duty for 26 hours then 22 off - from 1st Formation/PT day with his company 1 thru the duty day until start of evening duty as BN Duty NCO at 1700 and then thru relief by the Sgt Major after PT at 0830 on Day 2. They then were off duty until 0600 the next day and could then retire to a leisurely slumber in a barracks full of troops coming/going hooting/hollering and training (a big HS locker room). How bad is that fire house? The Duty NCO was expected to be professionally attired and ready to respond to any mission or responsibility at all times while on staff duty. He could not sleep, cat nap, or lounge. He did not have 30 seconds to awaken from his slumber and find the door when a superior officer walked in the door of BN hq to make an inspection or when the alert phone rang. Bn Sgt Major would ensure admin tasks were available to keep them gainfully occupied between the routine duty tasks. Routine vehicle maint (including washing command vehicles) was required as was instructing the driver on appropriate individual training tasks. Assignment was for a reason/need and while on the taxpayer clock it was demanded that time be productively used. Not screwing off sleeping. And paid a fraction of what a career firefighter is paid. And no sleeping so could be fresh as a daisy for that 2nd job.

The Staff Duty Officer, in command in the absence of the Bn cdr, was allowed to sleep if any time was available around completion of his duties. Average around 3-4hrs. Sometimes more sometimes none. His relief was at 0600 so he could take PT with his platoon and carry on with his duty day (NO DAY OFF). 36hrs does get long.

If the fire service are performing a critical life safety mission how is it one has time for blissful slumber while ON DUTY? NOTHING productive that needs done? Predictable ZERO likelyhood of a call in the next 60 seconds? Then why is a career station needed? If you're asleep you're voting that you are not an essential service.

Once again, you are attempting to turn this into a career/volunteer issue.

Nice try, but I am not biting.

[Smoke20286]

If the fire service are performing a critical life safety mission how is it one has time for blissful slumber while ON DUTY? NOTHING productive that needs done? Predictable ZERO likelyhood of a call in the next 60 seconds? Then why is a career station needed? If you're asleep you're voting that you are not an essential service.

You sir have absolutly no idea what you are talking about