1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by mjk1171
    Our SOP reads: beds may be occupied between 2000-0700 and the company officer may make exceptions if increased call load is expected at night.
    So we pretty much sleep whenever as long as everything is done and the CO is ok with it.
    Same here, except for the second part. No sleeping (in bed) period untill 2000hrs. Even on weekends/holidays. Thats the policy anyway, but you will find the Laz-y-boys occupied most days at 1700hrs when the "workday" ends during the week, and after 1200hrs weekends/holidays.
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    Time to change policy for the weekends lol !! . On Saturday and Sunday we start at 0600 {Same as our weekday shifts} -- However Weekends and Holidays are "rest days" -- Double check the trash and clean the kitchen before 1700 that's it. The rest of the weekends and holidays are ours.

    Weekdays are a bi**h though. -- No downtime until 1700. We're pretty busy with apparatus, House, and paperwork duties as well averaging 7-10 Runs {EMS/Fire} per day -- We're outta' here at 1800 so we stay busy during our weekdays.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BD6413
    Time to change policy for the weekends lol !! .
    Oh, thats not all. The new Chief (the one who changed the sleeping policy) expected us to drill, do inspections, test hose and everything else on weekends/holidays, They were to be treated like a regular M-F. Needless to say, that didnt last very long.
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    WOW !! Glad to see that was changed for you. I work for a Volunteer Fire Company {There are four of us Career Guys on duty during the day and two part timers at night} so basically we work under the watchful eye of the Board of Directors.

    They're great people to work for...We have Rules but for the most part they're laid back and only really complain to our supervisors when something major occurs {Like Unauthorized Sleeping}

    We luck out majorly....Hose Testing is done by the membership, Inspections by the State Fire Marshal, Apparatus Maintenance is performed by the volunteer officers. So we do have Station life pretty easy. We clean every 1st. day back working a 2 on 2 off 3 on 2 off 2 on 3 off keeps the place pretty clean by both crews. Feeling tired and even drifting off is easy to do especially after lunch but we try and keep busy. That's the beauty of having a Career Staff Office. A little cat nap is a good thing.

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    SOP states sleep time is not allowed until 2100...but that is rarely the case, especially after we take care of the daily work...in my department, everyday of the week means a different kind of chore is to be done:
    Monday:Window day
    Tuesday:video training
    Wednesday:kitchen day
    Thursday:building inspections/grounds day
    Friday:house cleaning day/Fire training
    Saturday:apparatus day
    Sunday:medical inventory/driver's training/hydrant inspections
    Plus, being that in our 16 day cycle we hit every day of the week once, it is a routine you get used to taking care of and everything gets kept up...
    The other reason this is rarely the case is because we are a dual role department combining fire and ems...if you are a paramedic, every shift you work is twelve on the engine and twelve on the ambulance alternating day and night tricks...if you have never worked this kind of schedule, it can be severely taxing both mentally and physically...the worst, for me at least, is when I am on the engine during the day and catch and ***-ripper, working my *** of and getting tired and then having to ride the box at night and getting stomped with little to no sleep...it takes like a day to recover...so needless to say, if I am on the engine during the day and it is slow enough for me to get a nap...you better believe I'm gonna take one!!

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    in reply to capt. gonzo: WHAT? we have to work?

    most people at my department (its only part-time, the cheif is FT but will not show up after 1600) think that we are getting paid to sleep. Heck, some people have a problem with truck checks....its like pulling teeth to them. Our shifts are 12 hrs long starting at 0600-1800 and 1800-0600. Official city policy is that we are not allowed to sleep anytime while on duty (the word is that 12 hours on duty is not long enough to require a sleep period...even at night) and therefore we are not allowed any beds in the station. Real world policy is that as soon as you get into the house you can sleep until a call comes in or if we have training/cleaing to do. Most people that work here work other jobs too, so they come in from a night shift from thier "regular" job and sleep for 11 hours (asuming that they do the station duties). The Officers dont really care about us sleeping, neither do the cheifs, but whenever the city manager shows up...we are hard at work

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    Quote Originally Posted by twon01
    in reply to capt. gonzo: WHAT? we have to work?

    most people at my department (its only part-time, the cheif is FT but will not show up after 1600) think that we are getting paid to sleep. Heck, some people have a problem with truck checks....its like pulling teeth to them. Our shifts are 12 hrs long starting at 0600-1800 and 1800-0600. Official city policy is that we are not allowed to sleep anytime while on duty (the word is that 12 hours on duty is not long enough to require a sleep period...even at night) and therefore we are not allowed any beds in the station. Real world policy is that as soon as you get into the house you can sleep until a call comes in or if we have training/cleaing to do. Most people that work here work other jobs too, so they come in from a night shift from thier "regular" job and sleep for 11 hours (asuming that they do the station duties). The Officers dont really care about us sleeping, neither do the cheifs, but whenever the city manager shows up...we are hard at work

    anthony
    What did you mean by this reply to me?

    I thought I stated my case quite eloquently.
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
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    just stating that some people that i have the extreme pleasure of working with at my dept. feel that they are there to be paid to sleep and how dare someone call 911 and interupt their napping...

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    I am curious as to what "shift" you work on.
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
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    Captain Gonzo is quite right, studies abound to show the facts of his assertions. There is also a great deal of evidence to support lower costs for the employer in the long run by the adoption of a 24 hour shift schedule. No one is "getting paid to sleep" we are being paid to provide prompt professional emergency response to the community, whatever the time of day or night
    A'int No Rocket Scientist's in The Firehall

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    Quote Originally Posted by E40FDNYL35
    WHAT??? You guys get to sleep on the job?
    In my station, it is a rare occurrance if the bells don't go off after 2100. it's also not strange to go on a run in the middle of the night and come back to an empty firehouse (4 pieces + the BC). But then again we do average 25- to 30 calls a day.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainGonzo
    Your ignorance is astounding.

    You ask "what is the benefit"?

    How about an average of a 4 to 5 minute time from point of dispatch to arrival on scene with a first alarm response....even if we are in the rack!

    How about the same arrival tiime for MVA's, medicals, etc.

    The fact is... Firefighting is an emergency job, or are you too blind to see that?

    Fact: Altering sleep patterns constantly is not healthy and if continued causes more problems, ie, higher medical costs, lost time, etc.

    Fact: you do not sleep the same at the firehouse as you do at home in your own bed. The sound of tones, radios, scanners and phones are just background noise you try to adjust to. It's more like sleeping with one eye open or catnapping.

    Fact: the taxpayers don't give a fat rat's rump if I am wide awake in the middle of night catching up on run reports or snoozing away. What they care about is the response they get for their 911 emergency, whether it is real or a perception in their minds.

    For those mutts who would complain...

    I would offer them a week living in the firehouse, so they could see the slow times, the busy times and the absolutely insanity of "running your arse off from one end of town to the other times". Let them sit down to a meal and have it interrupted once, twice or more. See how long they last...

    PS: the private paramedics riding the bone out of the hospital have their own little snooze area in the hospital. So if they work a 10 and 14 shift, should they stay up all night, too?

    Boo dang hoo. I'll give you a useful direct parallel for my time on active duty, Army. In garrison, BN staff duty NCO and his driver were on duty for 26 hours then 22 off - from 1st Formation/PT day with his company 1 thru the duty day until start of evening duty as BN Duty NCO at 1700 and then thru relief by the Sgt Major after PT at 0830 on Day 2. They then were off duty until 0600 the next day and could then retire to a leisurely slumber in a barracks full of troops coming/going hooting/hollering and training (a big HS locker room). How bad is that fire house? The Duty NCO was expected to be professionally attired and ready to respond to any mission or responsibility at all times while on staff duty. He could not sleep, cat nap, or lounge. He did not have 30 seconds to awaken from his slumber and find the door when a superior officer walked in the door of BN hq to make an inspection or when the alert phone rang. Bn Sgt Major would ensure admin tasks were available to keep them gainfully occupied between the routine duty tasks. Routine vehicle maint (including washing command vehicles) was required as was instructing the driver on appropriate individual training tasks. Assignment was for a reason/need and while on the taxpayer clock it was demanded that time be productively used. Not screwing off sleeping. And paid a fraction of what a career firefighter is paid. And no sleeping so could be fresh as a daisy for that 2nd job.

    The Staff Duty Officer, in command in the absence of the Bn cdr, was allowed to sleep if any time was available around completion of his duties. Average around 3-4hrs. Sometimes more sometimes none. His relief was at 0600 so he could take PT with his platoon and carry on with his duty day (NO DAY OFF). 36hrs does get long.

    If the fire service are performing a critical life safety mission how is it one has time for blissful slumber while ON DUTY? NOTHING productive that needs done? Predictable ZERO likelyhood of a call in the next 60 seconds? Then why is a career station needed? If you're asleep you're voting that you are not an essential service.

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    Working hours are from 0600 to 1800. If you have a slow morning (1 call insted of 2) you will have plenty of time to do truck checks, squad checks, pump tests, station duties, workout, etc.

    As long as you are done with your work by 1800 you can watch TV, sleep, play x-box, whatever. We can respond plenty fast when sleeping or awake.

    When I'm working with AMR, its pretty much anything goes. You check out your car in the morning, put yourself in service then as long as you are not on a run you can sleep, watch TV, read, WHATEVER. Even when you are posted you can sleep if you wan't. Its really not a problem.

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    Quote Originally Posted by neiowa
    Boo dang hoo. I'll give you a useful direct parallel for my time on active duty, Army. In garrison, BN staff duty NCO and his driver were on duty for 26 hours then 22 off - from 1st Formation/PT day with his company 1 thru the duty day until start of evening duty as BN Duty NCO at 1700 and then thru relief by the Sgt Major after PT at 0830 on Day 2. They then were off duty until 0600 the next day and could then retire to a leisurely slumber in a barracks full of troops coming/going hooting/hollering and training (a big HS locker room). How bad is that fire house? The Duty NCO was expected to be professionally attired and ready to respond to any mission or responsibility at all times while on staff duty. He could not sleep, cat nap, or lounge. He did not have 30 seconds to awaken from his slumber and find the door when a superior officer walked in the door of BN hq to make an inspection or when the alert phone rang. Bn Sgt Major would ensure admin tasks were available to keep them gainfully occupied between the routine duty tasks. Routine vehicle maint (including washing command vehicles) was required as was instructing the driver on appropriate individual training tasks. Assignment was for a reason/need and while on the taxpayer clock it was demanded that time be productively used. Not screwing off sleeping. And paid a fraction of what a career firefighter is paid. And no sleeping so could be fresh as a daisy for that 2nd job.

    The Staff Duty Officer, in command in the absence of the Bn cdr, was allowed to sleep if any time was available around completion of his duties. Average around 3-4hrs. Sometimes more sometimes none. His relief was at 0600 so he could take PT with his platoon and carry on with his duty day (NO DAY OFF). 36hrs does get long.

    If the fire service are performing a critical life safety mission how is it one has time for blissful slumber while ON DUTY? NOTHING productive that needs done? Predictable ZERO likelyhood of a call in the next 60 seconds? Then why is a career station needed? If you're asleep you're voting that you are not an essential service.
    Once again, you are attempting to turn this into a career/volunteer issue.

    Nice try, but I am not biting.
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

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    Quote Originally Posted by neiowa
    If the fire service are performing a critical life safety mission how is it one has time for blissful slumber while ON DUTY? NOTHING productive that needs done? Predictable ZERO likelyhood of a call in the next 60 seconds? Then why is a career station needed? If you're asleep you're voting that you are not an essential service.
    You sir have absolutly no idea what you are talking about
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    If the fire service are performing a critical life safety mission how is it one has time for blissful slumber while ON DUTY? NOTHING productive that needs done? Predictable ZERO likelyhood of a call in the next 60 seconds? Then why is a career station needed? If you're asleep you're voting that you are not an essential service.[/QUOTE]


    Dear *****,
    The other guys may not want to start a war about paid VS. volunteer and neither do i but If you wanna start bashing the paid side of things you should look at why you are a volunteer. You wanna be one of us.you are so jealous that we have jobs that we love and you would love to have (other wise why would you volunteer)?? I know it gets lonely out there in Iowa watching the corn blow in the wind.You never thought about dozing off in the rocking chair outside the station waiting for that fire in the cornfield to come in??? come on who are you kidding?? Or are you the type who sits in the rig hoping and praying a leaf blows on the road the wrong way so you can respond. You corn Shucking bit**.

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    Okay, I know I am a Volunteer and I read the Career/Paid Forum to learn why we all can't get along. But the fact of the matter is that if you are working/on duty at night you should be able to sleep. I know there are no Vol. Companies that make their Vols stay awake all night while on duty. I don't get the reasoning behind Volunteers stiring the Sh*t pot with you guys. I just figured that since Volunteers work all day and sleep in their beds at home then the least a paid guy should be able to sleep while he is REQUIRED to be in the station for 24 hours. I just don't understand some people's reasoning behind getting the Sh*t pot stirred. Good luck on the sleeping issues with employeers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by craigsheets
    Okay, I know I am a Volunteer and I read the Career/Paid Forum to learn why we all can't get along. But the fact of the matter is that if you are working/on duty at night you should be able to sleep. I know there are no Vol. Companies that make their Vols stay awake all night while on duty. I don't get the reasoning behind Volunteers stiring the Sh*t pot with you guys. I just figured that since Volunteers work all day and sleep in their beds at home then the least a paid guy should be able to sleep while he is REQUIRED to be in the station for 24 hours. I just don't understand some people's reasoning behind getting the Sh*t pot stirred. Good luck on the sleeping issues with employeers.
    The only issue is with those striiring the pot for the sake of seeing what floats to the top!

    I have a related story.. a friend of mine's department was going through some tough negotiaitions with the new City Manager of his community, who vowed to "get tough with the Fire Department". He ordered that the beds be taken out of the firehouse as "the taxpayers aren't paying for people to sleep" ....

    It just so happened that the City Manager lived in my friend's district...

    Since they were ordered to do something productive at night, they decided to drill and do hose evolutions... and just happened to choose the street the City Manager lived on, and he even had a hydrant right in front of his house!

    Funny thing happened... the beds were placed back into the firehouse the very next day and the order rescinded...
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

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    I have a related story.. a friend of mine's department was going through some tough negotiaitions with the new City Manager of his community, who vowed to "get tough with the Fire Department". He ordered that the beds be taken out of the firehouse as "the taxpayers aren't paying for people to sleep" ....

    It just so happened that the City Manager lived in my friend's district...

    Since they were ordered to do something productive at night, they decided to drill and do hose evolutions... and just happened to choose the street the City Manager lived on, and he even had a hydrant right in front of his house!

    Funny thing happened... the beds were placed back into the firehouse the very next day and the order rescinded...
    Geez Cap, youre getting forgettful in your old age. You posted this story in this thread already..lol

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    LOL, he got ya there Cap
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smoke20286
    LOL, he got ya there Cap
    Cranial flatulence affecting the portion of the brain that controls memory....

    That's my story and I'm sticking to it!!!
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

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    Capt. Gonz,

    It is still a good story even the 2nd time around.
    A "Good" fire is not measured by how big it is, but by the fact that everyone is going home safe, and that we possibly learned something new about firefighting. Member:IACOJ

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    Here the "official" sleep time is after 8PM. Since the shift change occurs at 5PM and there is usually 2-3 hours of truck check in work and satellitte station/truck work assigned nightly to the 1 paid firefighter one, it wouldn't really be likely that you could go to bed much before that anyway. You must be up, showered and dressed by 730AM. There is no napping permitted during the day.
    The 10-hour part-time daytime firefighter (M-F 8AM-6PM) is not permitted to sleep.

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    Your gonna love this. Shift starts 0700...check rigs then breakfast....Clean house/daily chores.....training/preplans/plug flushing/etc......1200 lunch......1300 Nap time (yes you heard it right nap time from 1300 till 1600 written into the contract.).....1600 Vocal alarm check and up from nap......work as needed.......start supper.......eat....clean kitchen......free time......beds again at 2200. Thats the rough schedual. Usually we try to have all our pressing business taken care of by 1200 and the rest of the day is yours. Personel can hit the bed anytime at the discretion of the Lt. BC's are cool about things so long as the work gets done.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LtLarry View Post
    Your gonna love this. Shift starts 0700...check rigs then breakfast....Clean house/daily chores.....training/preplans/plug flushing/etc......1200 lunch......1300 Nap time (yes you heard it right nap time from 1300 till 1600 written into the contract.).....1600 Vocal alarm check and up from nap......work as needed.......start supper.......eat....clean kitchen......free time......beds again at 2200. Thats the rough schedual. Usually we try to have all our pressing business taken care of by 1200 and the rest of the day is yours. Personel can hit the bed anytime at the discretion of the Lt. BC's are cool about things so long as the work gets done.

    LTLarry,

    Can I get a copy of your contract? Were in negotiations right now, and I would love to see a siesta clause in our new contract. We spend almost all nights transferring patients from our little local "Emergency Access Hospital" to the regional money grubbing hospital. Were averaging 4-6 calls a night out of our main station... not much sleep going on there, even for our engine crew.

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